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Post by humbletigger on Oct 22, 2010 9:40:27 GMT -5
Reading this breaks my heart for you and your adult children, Tess. I am so sorry.
I hope that as your adult children grow more personally, they will be able to hear the truth of your words and forgive you. The rage an abused child feels takes time and therapy (validation) to start to lessen. I hope your adult children (and you too) are finding some helpful trauma therapy to deal with the PTSD. You were all incarcerated in a hostile hostage situation for years!
Of course you know these things, I am just reminding you of them. Your adult children needed to go through the steps of confrontation and expressing their anger in order to heal. That must have been excrutiatingly painful for you to endure. But once they are done with that, they will come back to wanting a relationship with their present day mother. At least, I want to believe they will attain that level of healing.
Trauma, the unwanted gift that keeps on giving. Blech.
For what it's worth, I think of you as a hero, amazingly resilient and courageous, for ever getting out at all!
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Post by humbletigger on Oct 20, 2010 16:40:40 GMT -5
That is my beef too semperstarla! It should be called Biblianity instead of Christianity, because their favorite adjective is "biblical" rather than "Christ-like". Also, the words/life of Christ have been demoted to a mere 1/16 th of the faith, in keeping with their worship of the OT and epistles as every bit as relevant as the Son of God. Am I the only Christian in the world perplexed by that? My son doesn't even want to call himself a Christian because of it, but wants a different word to show that it's Jesus he loves and wants to emulate, NOT American Christianity.
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Post by humbletigger on Oct 19, 2010 17:03:03 GMT -5
I am blown away that you had to go through a horrid labor while your lazy-ass husband was watching TV and on the computer. The argument for forced castration would apply in this case. Agreeing with Erica again! DR, sending much love your way! Having just read your entry, I am more or less speechless. I will write more later. Tapati and semperstarla, Yes, some batterers can get help, and those suffering from PTSD are in that group. Then there are the psycho/sociopathic/sadists like DRs husband. The only help for them, I fear, is not for them but for the rest of us- their demise.
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Post by humbletigger on Oct 15, 2010 18:13:53 GMT -5
I thin there is great merit in that pov, autumn.
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Post by humbletigger on Oct 15, 2010 18:11:42 GMT -5
Very interesting.
My nieces (the ones in a patriarchal family cult) tried to give me a tract about why I should wear a head covering. They said it was as a sign to the angels. Lolz.
I thought "wth? Angels are looking for a sign from God? The world is in trouble for sure!" ;D
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Post by humbletigger on Oct 13, 2010 14:33:15 GMT -5
Great post, kr!
I'm going to read this to my family. Have you read the book Pagan Christianity? It's on my list of book to get to eventually....
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Post by humbletigger on Oct 12, 2010 16:30:38 GMT -5
That's how I put it on someone else's blog. People who take the epistles (or even worse the Old Testament!) as a rule book are often called "legalistic" by those who see more freedom in how they live out the "love God love people" Of course if I were not a Christian, the whole thing would just be way too confusing, as Christians as a group are constantly arguing about who/what is legalistic. From the outside it wouldn't make much sense. Heck, from the inside it doesn't make much sense to me! I tell people these days I'm still working on the words of Jesus about love- Love God, love your neighbor as yourself, love your brother as I have loved you, love your enemies and do good to them. I am not even close! When I get these four simple things down pat, then I can move on to the rest of the Bible. Don't hold your breath.
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Post by humbletigger on Oct 8, 2010 21:09:53 GMT -5
I loved this line: Wow. Just, wow. You said so much in that one painful line. I am in a marriage recovering from a huge mess. We were not hardcore patriarchalists. Far from it. But I internalized so much of the teachings to women that I am still healing from the automatic self-subjugation I was taught was "pleasing to God". My husband and I are both in therapy. He completed a 26 week course for the prevention of domestic violence, then we both entered individual personal therapy to try to heal. It's coming up on two years since we first faced that we had a big problem, and things are improving daily. However IF things were to return to what was the status quo, I would leave. I will not live with emotional, verbal or passive abuse, much less any return to even the threat of violence. That is off the table. My husband, like yours, is fundamentally a decent human being too. That's why he began therapy, and why he is continuing in therapy today. I truly respect him AS A HUMAN BEING for doing this, not because any doctrine tells me I should but because he is respectable in his actions. I plan on returning to work within the next year or two. Right now we are investigating whether it is worth it to us as a family to pay for me to finally complete my education, or just work part-time at an entry level job. But the answer came to me as I was typing just now. Not only would it be worth more to us as a couple for me to work in a professional field, it would be a living wage for me if he ever reverts back to his old ways. Smart. Thanks for giving me the space to type that out here, Vyckie and Woman Reclaimed.
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Post by humbletigger on Oct 6, 2010 15:20:43 GMT -5
I remember the KMart boycott! I thought about keeping it, but they had the cutest little girl's shoes, plus they sold Superman ice cream cones and white cherry slushies. The boycotts definitely come from Christian radio! Oh yes, I remember I actually used to listen to those programs. Now since I still a Christian, I sometimes listen to the Christian radio in addition to my teenagers stations and classic rock. But I refuse to listen to a speaking program. I don't want to waste my time. Maybe Ford is going to break the trend. You aren't supposed to buy Ford because they give money to lobbyists for gay marriage. But they are the only American car dealer not involved in the bailout. Coincidence? Probably, but anyway the boycott doesn't seem to be hurting them. So no Gothard isn't behind all the boycotts, but he is behind every teaching about authority covering you have ever heard. He started spewing this stuff in highly popular seminars in the '70s. Later he started his home school angle, ATI, and that was where I first heard the "white bread will kill you" stuff. From a QF daughter around 7 yrs old, who gravely asked if we ground our own flour at the playground, and when I said no, was deeply concerned that I was poisoning my children. She was a child. That makes me so sad. Wonder where she is today.
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Post by humbletigger on Oct 6, 2010 8:26:55 GMT -5
If there is a hell for wicked men to burn in for all eternity, Bill Gothard will surely be there. His aberrant teachings have ruined more people's lives than any single person in America.
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Post by humbletigger on Oct 5, 2010 16:54:57 GMT -5
An E-Free church was that weird? I heard it from Gothard people, that white flour will kill you. I thought E-Free was pretty mainstream. Live and learn.
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Post by humbletigger on Oct 4, 2010 14:02:05 GMT -5
What is it with fundies and sickness? I know the charismatic tripe about symptoms being nothing but temptations to deny your divine health (HAHAHAHA! What a load!), but what is it with the non-charismatic fundies? My husband refuses to admit he is sick, to the point that he walked around for 24 hours with a broken leg before he went to the ER. When he first broke it- as a grown man- his friends urged him to go to the ER then but he refused to believe it was broken. He insisted on going home, taking ibuprofen and sleeping on it, to see if it was better in the morning! I know it's a family thing- they refuse to admit illness for the most part. It's a sign of some sort of weakness good Christians are immune too, I guess. But where does that come from? Is it merely a consequence of living in carefully constructed denial about everything else that just spills over into physical wellness/illness? Can any one illuminate me?
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Post by humbletigger on Oct 1, 2010 15:25:40 GMT -5
(((defendantrising)))
I'm sorry you suffered such trauma. I wish you complete healing and joy.
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Post by humbletigger on Oct 1, 2010 15:21:55 GMT -5
I think Buddha would totally have supported the ethical teachings of Jesus.
And in my own mystical sense of Jesus, God, heaven, I totally get wanting to be swallowed up in such beautiful goodness and light, sort of Nirvana-like.
But I think that I would remain a distinct personality, enjoying fellowship with this amazing SuperPower of Love and Truth along with innumerable others who love that beautiful goodness-not the end of self but certainly the end of suffering.
But I don't know anything about Buddhism from an insider's perspective, only from a comparative theology perspective, which can never really relate what a religion means to its adherents personally, only summarize the major doctrines, etc.
I should add that many Christians would consider me a heretic for many reason, not the least of which is having mystical experiences with God. The fact that I think God accepts way more people than evangelical interpretations would allow is another reason. So I'm not sure my opinion is a "Christian" pov.
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Post by humbletigger on Oct 1, 2010 10:19:49 GMT -5
That's exactly the sick way they distance themselves. And women are not the only ones not allowed to be depressed. My husband was only able to admit to himself that he might possibly be depressed when he was about to get thrown under the bus for acting out violently. I was not a good friend to him during his depression, because I was too busy trying to cure him by submission. What a total freaking horrendously unfunny joke! He got no better, and my life got worse and worse. Ugh. His depression stems from growing up the son of fundamentalist missionary/pastor parents. As a child, he subjected his self to their religious rules, and denied his own feelings, and dismantled his own warning system, and learned to not think or feel too deeply about anything. His entire personality was built on repression of feelings and burying uncomfortable questions and being grateful for any crumbs of attention/affection that might fall his way. Finally I decided not to take it anymore, and he admitted he needed help. Now two years or group and individual therapy for him, plus some antidepressants, and therapy for me too- we are living together like two loving adults should live together. Someone earlier wrote about returning to Christianity because they have a mystical bent. I can so relate. If it weren't for the personal mystical experiences I have known, I wouldn't remain in the church. But I really do love what I know as Jesus, and I can't give that up. To do so would be to deny my truest self. But I am still not sure where I will wind up ten years from now. I have such bones to pick with organized American churchianity!
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Post by humbletigger on Sept 30, 2010 15:34:49 GMT -5
When I was living on a minimum wage job, I relied on donations of clothing, furniture, anything really that might benefit my life. I was working two and even three jobs to do my best to meet all my own needs.
I wasn't staying out of the work place for religious reasons, and I didn't pretend that being poor made me holier than anyone else. I pretty much worked, went to church, did laundry and dishes and that's about all I had time for.
Cecelia is out of the workforce for religious reasons, and continually having more children for religious reasons also. I was just on a QF web site yesterday where a woman claims that God will always provide for you no matter how many children you have.
And in some ways it's true, if you credit all the good deeds of people and government programs to God and write off all the unmet needs as not genuine needs because no one died from lack.
People need to let go of their magical thinking. It's not faith, it's tempting God. I don't see much difference between handling snakes because a scripture says that won't hurt believers and eschewing birth control to procreate continually because a scripture calls children a blessing. In both cases, people of faith are "trusting" that because they are "obedient" God will miraculously intervene if/when things go poorly for them.
That's very different from working hard and still not being able to make ends meet, or having generous friends who like to bless you with special gifts you could not afford on your own.
It's not that Celia's poor that irks, it's that Celia is doing nothing to meet her own family's financial need while continually adding to the had count that will need fed, clothed, etc. That's what irks: her expectation that (God) others will do for her what she refuses to do for her self-namely plan ahead for a secure future in which she makes sure the needs are met.
But I've already been through this discussion once on another thread, and it seems I'm not that good at communicating the difference between someone needing help in spite of all the best laid plans and effort, and someone needing help because they have no plan beyond "see what turns up" and feeling self-righteous about it to boot.
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Post by humbletigger on Sept 30, 2010 12:32:45 GMT -5
I am pretty sure the "huge blessings" for large families are out of pity for the children. They sure can't help it that their parents reproduce like bunnies, but they will be the ones homeless and naked if people don't help out.
So people help out, sometimes grudgingly, but always because they have a clear view of what will happen if they don't help out. Someone has to help.
The frustrating part is, from the point of view of a compassionate giver, is that the recipients don't seem to get it. We give because their need is greater than their personal ability to meet that need. I think most of us hope that our gifts will be a stop-gap while the adults in the family look for a more permanent solution to their problems.
Unfortunately, like the landowner that allowed Cecilia's family to live rent free, the recipients of charity just don't get it. I am sure they knew their generous landlord would die in the near future, but did they prepare? It doesn't sound like it.
Reminds me of a religious group that needed millions to renovate an old building to bring it up to code. They kept soliciting funds even though there was no way they could reach the astronomical amount of money they would need to six things up right. Yet every hundred bucks, and every 90 day extension from the county, was treated as if it were a divine miracle.
The county stopped hearing from God eventually (snark snark) and all those piddling donations went down the black hole of necessary repairs for no real reason. Sad.
I wonder what the true believers made of that? And I wonder what Cecilia will make of it if her next house is too small, too expensive, or otherwise inadequate for her continually growing family? Just another cross to bear for Jesus, rather than the logical conclusion of too many children and not enough money?
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Post by humbletigger on Sept 29, 2010 7:43:10 GMT -5
I love this statement! It makes perfect sense. If there is a God, and this God is loving and good, compassionate and just, then an honest atheism would be more pleasing to God than a faith that believes he is the a****** some religious people portray and "serves" that twisted wicked ugly "god". Heretical, I know, but completely logical. Oh, and I want to apologize the Defendant Risings mom and other moms whose daughters were victimized while they felt powerless to help. My murderous comments came from the rage I felt while reading DRs story, and the personal experience of a daughter once involved with an abusive boyfriend. I applaud the pea pelting incident whole-heartedly. I am sure DRs mom a) didn't know the worst of the abuse or would've called the cops and b) was constrained by wanting to try to retain contact with her daughter if at all possible. My guess is that if she had known for a fact that the abuser would cut off all further contact and she would not hear from her daughter for years, she would've used much larger heavier objects than peas to pelt the man with. Like an iron frying pan. Or perhaps smaller but much higher velocity objects, like shotgun pellets. Hindsights 20/20. I know the tightrope a mom must walk when her daughter is under the spell of an abusive relationship.
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Post by humbletigger on Sept 27, 2010 9:29:39 GMT -5
Reading this, from the perspective of a mother, I am stunned. If any man treats my daughter like this, I will personally shoot the son of a bitch in the head while he sleeps, and be pleased with myself every single day I am in prison, and look forward to the reward of the righteous in the afterlife. I am so sorry this happened to you, Defendant Rising. I am stunned. Angry. And no longer ignorant.
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Post by humbletigger on Sept 23, 2010 15:37:07 GMT -5
I'm sure they were only unfailingly polite and pleasant to you because they had to be, seeing as how women still can't drive or leave the house without a male relative and without being totally covered in Saudi Arabia.
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Post by humbletigger on Sept 23, 2010 9:13:23 GMT -5
I am totally creeped out by that website! Having been over on the cultwatch website, I am even more creeped out. Such slick marketing! Notice how in the family camp 2006 they prominently display all the people of color? Of course just looking at all those over-worked tired and worn plain women makes me sad for them. I remember wondering for awhile if I should feel remorse over getting my tubes tied. We were visiting my father-in-laws church. A happy shiny QF dad and his oldest son were heartily leading worship. They had been there well in advance of the start of the service. A few minutes into worship, the harried QF wife and mother comes in. She was not trim. She was not happy or shiny. She was stressed. She looked exhausted. She was also dressed in what I shall call late Dallas/Dynasty era clothing- big hat, big shoulders, big collars dress that had been in style in that decade previous. I remember saying to God in my heart, sorry if this is wrong, but I am soooooooo glad that is not me! I am glad I stopped at two kids. And in my heart, I felt God smile at me as if to say you are just fine the way you are in my book.
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Post by humbletigger on Sept 23, 2010 8:22:06 GMT -5
"It was as if I was nasty and not someone he would ever be seen talking to. He would answer my questions as briefly as possible. He never gave any details only brief answers to direct questions. He would move to the other end of the table away from me even if no one was there. However, I was persistent and I had chosen some of the books. I totally and foolishly ignored the way he was treating me. I figured it was just his personality."
Ugh. I would have done the same thing. I just couldn't conceive in my mind that any man could ever buy into the idea that they were so superior to women! I remember a home school convention where a friend's husband refused to shake my hand. I merely thought, "what a strange man" but after he left, another man came up to me (there are still some normal ones at home school conventions, at least in 2003 in Florida! lolz) and said-
that the man couldn't shake my hand because I might be on my period and according to OT law that would defile him. 0.0
I am still dumb-founded how it is that *I* missed how serious these cult teachings are to women and children. Seriously, I am so "live and let live" that I just didn't look that closely.
If I saw your little angels singing on the stage I would've been happy for you, LFE! I would not have warned you. I would figure we all had enough sense to "eat the hay, leave the straw".
But then even though I avoided a diet of pure straw, some it got in my system too, and me and my family have the scars to prove it.
I am thinking that next semester our home school courses will include a study of cults and cult techniques...
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Post by humbletigger on Sept 17, 2010 13:47:06 GMT -5
Lucrezia, I hope it all works out for the baby's best interests! Hugs to you and your family as you work to make things right.
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Post by humbletigger on Sept 17, 2010 7:35:49 GMT -5
It sure can be a crap shoot, and not only in Florida!
It is very fortunate for Ruth that the Klines were accepted as responsible and intelligent. (i.e. not "ghetto" - which sad but true does make a huge difference in your credibility many times)
The fact that they had called CPS about the family before made Ruth's story much more credible, no doubt.
Third, the Klines were smart enough to call police and not a CPS hotline. The police seem to have much more level heads about abuse allegations than either doctors or CPS workers.
Three cheers for the Klines! ;D
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Post by humbletigger on Sept 16, 2010 21:09:01 GMT -5
Darwin fish, Christian fish, vampire fish. You ladies are making me hungry for fish! ;D
I appreciate all of the posters here at NLQ and the wide variety of spiritual beliefs/wisdom/experiences they bring to the discussion. This is truly a unique place of good will. May it always be this way!
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