jwr
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Post by jwr on Feb 25, 2010 22:35:40 GMT -5
You know what's really creepy? Last night I saw the NGJ website and read the Pearl's "In Defense of Biblical Chastisement" articles. And what struck me was how articulate they are. They don't write like rednecks. They make it sound very logical.
And when they use extreme cases to justify this form of chastisement, it sounds quite common-sensical. To paraphrase one of their points crudely: If a young child insists upon playing on the freeway in direct disobedience to the parent, is it better to let him become road-pizza, or to spank him and save his life? Most people, when reading it framed in this manner would think, "Of course it's better to spank him than to let him get killed."
From my reading of the Pearls, there's enough half-truths and semi-logical points in their arguments to make it sound like a good idea. Of course, I don't think it's a good idea. But if a young parent, who wasn't able to spot the distortions and malice that's mixed in, were to read their stuff, it might sound really appealing.
This is the real bummer, the dark side, of intelligence and articulate writing. The Pearls seem intelligent and articulate, but when these qualities go bad, people become evil geniuses. They seem to have built their little kingdom on such a foundation.
And the name of their ministry (No Greater Joy) is so Orwellian! Added to Orwell's 1984 "freedom is slavery" can be "brutal beatings are great joy." It reminds me of a pathetic, abused cartoon character from an old HBO show. He would always say, "Happy happy, joy joy!"
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jwr
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Post by jwr on Jan 24, 2010 6:39:30 GMT -5
I'm extremely sarcastic; sometimes way over the top. So to me, Sea's post doesn't offend. And if you limit the meaning of "Pole Dancer" to a paid sex worker, they are some of the most brutalized, oppressed women on the planet. I'm speaking here from a global perspective. I can believe that some western women do sex work of their own free will, and enjoy it. But globally speaking, they're a small minority.
I live only six miles from a Calcutta brothel neighborhood called Sonagachi (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4055143.stm), where the prostitutes are as young as 11, and have been kidnapped and trafficked. After being sold to a brothel, they are beaten and raped mercilessly by a pimp, until their wills are totally broken and they submit. Most of them have looks in their eyes like they plan to commit suicide in a few hours. And they are victims of an extreme patriarchy, because even the "madams" work for men. Men are at the top of the chain of command.
Last time my wife visited one of these squalid brothels (claustrophobic rooms smaller than many American walk-in closets), she sang Bengali devotional songs to them, and hugged them and cried with them. One of them (about 17) grabbed her hand and said, "If you give me somewhere to stay I'll walk out now and never return!" But we don't have a facility yet, so my wife was unable. She still gets teary-eyed when she talks about that girl.
So, in a very real sense, the Prairie Muffin and the Pole Dancer are at the opposite ends of the same pole. Yes, it's sarcastic but it really makes a point.
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jwr
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Post by jwr on Dec 31, 2009 7:22:39 GMT -5
To Ariety,
I just read parts one and two, and it was really good. Of course, I feel weird saying the word "good" in this context. It was horrendous. But it was good in the sense of very well written; it was a window into life behind the veil, a life that most people never get to see, but they need to.
As in many cases on this forum I got a creepy feeling while reading; because it again showed me how closely my world has intersected with all this stuff. I was never in YWAM, but was greatly influenced by its founder, Loren Cunningham. And I was familiar with their ship Logos. It used to dock in Calcutta and offload literature here. (But until today I never knew they passed out the Above Rubies mag.) They have another ship called Anastasis, which is probably still afloat.
I'm really glad you escaped from the martyrdom. I think Kr's observation is really good. Why are terrorist-kidnappers condemned, even killed by special forces troops, but fundie men who do the same right inside the USA are looked up to as godly? Why not send hostage negotiators and spec ops troops to the suburbs of America?
Finally, you've replied and interacted with several of my posts since I first joined, but I never knew your context; you were just an electronic name to me. But suddenly you've become a 'real' person. You've probably mentioned this before, but if you don't mind can you refresh me: at this point are you a Christian in sort of a refugee status? Or an atheist, agnostic, or...?
Thanks again, and have a great New Year.
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jwr
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Post by jwr on Dec 19, 2009 10:33:43 GMT -5
I'm not sure how this happened, but I read the original post (by Jermand) and replied; but somehow I missed Jeff's big posting.
Margybargy and many others have replied thoughtfully and even compassionately to you, Jeff (if you're still reading this thread). I'm usually in a thinking, rational mode on this forum, but not tonight after hanging out with my rowdy Aussie friend for several hours.
So instead of reinventing the wheel and writing thoughtfully and compassionately, I'll just tell you that you're a total Asshole to judge Vyckie that way. From my correspondence with her, and from reading her blogs, and from personally knowing several QF families, all I can say is you're so full of it your eyes are brown.
I'm a male like you. We have it too easy. I know that I can never understand even 1/100th of what Vyckie has gone through. The "price" we pay to breed is anywhere between 25 seconds to an hour, depending upon endurance. The price women pay; hell, I can't even fathom. Weeks/months of nausea/vomiting; calcium depletion; ruptured uteri; emergency C-sections; endless exhaustion with multiple kids. You hop on and grunt a few seconds and the woman suffers and pays the price over and over for years.
And you have the friggin' gaul to judge Vyckie? You're out of your mind!
From my correspondence with her, I know this for sure: if she had spent her early adult years in grad school instead of following QF, she'd have multiple PH.Ds by now and a tenured position at a major university. But even without those degrees, you couldn't begin to even hold a candle to her intellect.
Go back to your cave, you Bronze-age throwback!
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jwr
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Post by jwr on Dec 19, 2009 10:13:33 GMT -5
jwr said: They were all using MacBooks instead of Windows computers. So at least all those kids have at least one really good thing going for them.... Spoken like a true Mac Fundie, jwr. ;D But I understand . . . I've never owned a PC either and even though my G5 isn't top of the line I wouldn't trade it for the most advanced PC around. All Praise to Apple! All Praise to Apple! FDLH John Enjoy your day, eh? Yes, John. I'm a true Mac Fundie! Apple ho Akbar! There is one Mac and Steve Jobs is its Prophet!
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jwr
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Post by jwr on Dec 19, 2009 5:04:16 GMT -5
To Ariety: You very well could be right, and I really hope so. I did see one excellent thing about the Jeub family. They were all using MacBooks instead of Windows computers. So at least all those kids have at least one really good thing going for them....
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jwr
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Post by jwr on Dec 18, 2009 19:06:51 GMT -5
To Kr, Yeah, you might be right that she's just camera-shy. Especially knowing it's a t.v. documentary. I hope it you're right. But even in the places where she wasn't directly being filmed (but was in the periphery) her eyes looked dissociative. But again, I could be wrong and I hope I am.
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jwr
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Post by jwr on Dec 18, 2009 3:18:19 GMT -5
That brief summary sure seemed to hit home. It reminds me of what I saw last week. For some reason, YouTube hasn't been working in my part of India for a month, so I never saw the "Secret Lives of Women: Born To Breed" episodes. (I only saw a 30-second excerpt on AOL news in mid-Nov). But last week YouTube came back and I've started watching the segments.
The family in Monument, CO (I forget their name now), really alarmed me for several reasons. One was personal; it was too close to home. We used to live in Colo Springs, and Monument borders it, to the north. Quite near where that family lives are some really steep hills where just a few years ago my kids and I used to go longboarding (47-inch skateboards), hitting up to 50 MPH. During our times up there, we drove by that family's property without even knowing they existed. But what really bothered me were two things:
First (which applies to this thread): the mom (who already had given birth to 15) said that even though she hates the nausea, exhaustion, etc. of pregnancy, she absolutely loves having the babies. She said something to the effect that there could never be enough and she wants more and more and more. This seemed pathological. I thought of the various body-obsessions people fall prey to: the male bodybuilders who can never get quite big enough and eventually ruin their bodies through the abuse of steroids and other substances; the anorexic or bulimic who always needs to just get a bit more thin; the cosmetic-surgery addict who always needs just one more procedure, etc... And this woman who said she still feels compelled to have more and more kids, as if 15 weren't enough, seemed like she fits into this category. Never satisfied, never enough, always striving for more; until its time to pay the piper and something goes terribly wrong. I could be wrong, but I think extreme QF women are psychologically related to the steroid kings and other body-obsessive people.
Second (a bit off topic from this thread, sorry): In that same Colorado family is a 17-year-old daughter (the slightly built blonde girl with glasses). The first time the camera zoomed on her, I felt alarmed. Something was wrong with her eyes. As the show went on it looked more and more like she was languishing. When the rest of the family brought her birthday breakfast in bed, she had the door locked. When she finally opened it and scrambled back to bed, she sat there with a blank, dead look as they gave her the breakfast tray and sang happy birthday. When it showed her doing the computer work, she looked really unwell. And her mom made a telling comment about her involvement in the family business: it gave her a few opportunities to get out of the house. While watching, I kept thinking, "This poor kid. Don't they see they're sucking the life out of her? Can't they see the look of clinical depression or worse in her eyes? Don't they know they're driving her crazy?" I also wondered if the camera crew noticed any of that. It reminded me of what I heard and read about Vyckie's daughter, Angel. Thank God Angel survived; but this girl (and probably many more) might not.
This whole thing is so tragic. Men who see themselves in a virility contest, often probably to prove to their own doubting selves that they're really heterosexual; women who develop these body-obsessions in which they think they can never have enough kids; and even more painfully, the kids who had no choice in the matter, but have to suffer more than anyone just because they happened to be born in the wrong circumstances. As that old Jim Morrison song Riders on the Storm says: "Into this world we're born; into this world we're thrown..."
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jwr
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Post by jwr on Nov 25, 2009 5:40:36 GMT -5
A good place to explore this more deeply is Phyllis Trible's book, Texts of Terror: Literary Feminist Readings of Biblical Narratives. Here's the Amazon link, and below it is the short review from the Amazon site: www.amazon.com/Texts-Terror-Overtures-Biblical-Theology/dp/0800615379/ref=sr_oe_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259145222&sr=1-1------- Product Description Professor Trible focuses on four variations upon the theme of terror in the Bible. By combining the discipline of literary criticism with the hermeneutics of feminism, she reinterprets the tragic stories of four women in ancient Israel: Hagar, Tamar, an unnamed concubine, and the daughter of Jephthah. In highlighting the silence, absence, and oppostition of God, as well as human cruelty, Trible shows how these neglected stories-interpreted in memoriam-challenge both the misogyny of Scripture and its use in church, synagogue, and academy.
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jwr
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Post by jwr on Nov 23, 2009 1:50:01 GMT -5
Maybe I missed a link, but this story seems to end in the middle. No resolution. I hope things got better, but probably not. This man's gradual nice-to-baleful personality change reminds me of the anti-hero (played by Jack Nicholson) in the movie The Shining. Did this guy ever get that far (go on an ax rampage)? If so, I hope the wife escaped and he too froze to death outside with a deranged grin on his face.
Or maybe he didn't go full psycho and just stuck with his plan to build the ark. That would be a good little boost to Oregon's timber industry.
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