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Post by WanderingOne on Mar 15, 2010 10:39:13 GMT -5
((((Ruth)))) I have no words.
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Post by WanderingOne on Mar 12, 2010 14:38:17 GMT -5
((Kiery)) I'm so sorry. :-( There have been times when I shut down emotionally as well. I would reason my way out of feeling sad and try to ignore it and just do what I was asked. But wow...to not cry at your brother's funeral. I'm so sorry.
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Post by WanderingOne on Mar 12, 2010 14:35:13 GMT -5
Hillary, fear is something that I struggle with a lot. Just as an example, I was taught that everything I did had MAJOR CONSEQUENCES that would echo into eternity...and that the way to avoid negative ones was to accept and do what my parents/the Bible told me to do. I have a really really hard time with decision making now, because making the wrong decision terrifies me. mommybunny, yeah I don't know either. It's something that I wasn't ever able to question so I can't answer that...
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Post by WanderingOne on Mar 10, 2010 0:09:45 GMT -5
Well, it's good to know that shepherds don't actually do that. Unfortunately, fundies seem to have a blatant disregard for what is actually true, so I doubt anyone who told me that story would really care that they don't. But, ugh. that sort of theology sets people up to abuse their children. It makes me so angry that someone would invent something like that and use it to make an awful point.
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Post by WanderingOne on Mar 10, 2010 0:05:55 GMT -5
I'm not really sure what the deal about the middle of the bed was. Another of the rules was "unquestioning obedience" so...I don't know. I think it might have been a self-control issue.
I think one of the problems with "getting saved" so young, and out of fear of hell, is that it sets you up for constantly questioning whether or not you really meant it...so the fear of hell/being left behind never goes away. At least, that's how it went for me...
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Post by WanderingOne on Mar 6, 2010 17:52:44 GMT -5
Good morning, KR and All! Has Spring Sprung? Has the grass riz? I wonder where the flowers is??? KR...earlier you said this... "The general idea of the "rod" proverbs is that children should receive correction when necessary. It's not necessary to interpret these proverbs as requiring, or even literally meaning, an actual rod. Most other places in the Proverbs, the word "rod" is qualified by being called "rod of discipline." "Rod" can certainly be interpreted metaphorically to mean any kind of correction." I am remembering from a book I read once, I think it was "A Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23"... The ROD was used, in the hands of a GENTLE shepherd, to lay alongside the neck of a sheep wandering in the wrong direction...to TURN THAT ANIMAL, much as the reins on the neck of a horse changes its direction. NOT harshly, but gently...and the rod I remember in this writing has a crook on the end of it, for rescuing (Yep, RESCUING) an animal which had slipped from the path and off the edge of a cliff. The shepherd would reach down and wrap the crook around the animal and pull it to safety. I like to think of discipline in this manner...to turn a child from a harmful direction, to set the feet of that child on a safe path. I was taught that a shepherd had two instruments--a rod and a staff--and what you described, I think I was taught was the function of the staff. Although I'm not sure anymore. The purpose of the rod, I was told, was to break a lamb's legs when he or she walked to far away or got into trouble. Then the shepherd would carry the little lamb on his shoulders until the broken legs healed, because he loved the lamb. It doesn't really matter to me what the correct understanding of a shepherd's tools might be. But there are people who really do believe that by "breaking their kids legs" and then carrying them, they are imitating the good shepherd. And then...ugh. the effect this sort of teaching has on children... You know those beautiful pictures of Jesus, carrying a lamb on his shoulders? Like this one: Yeah, those terrified me. all I could think about was the fact that JESUS BROKE THE LAMB'S LEG.
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Post by WanderingOne on Mar 4, 2010 14:06:00 GMT -5
According to Salon, and Tulipgirl actually pulled the 990s and paid for access to them when I pointed it out in Salon and confirmed its true, NGJ brought in 1.8 million in 2009. Its a rapidly growing ministry. Ugh. that's so sickening. To profit off such awful practices. the idea of mass complaints to the IRS is a good one I think. It makes me so sad that the NGJ facebook page, where Pearl posted that awful note has 4,700 fans. I found two anti-NGJ groups: one with around 100 members and one with 250ish. :-( whatever Michael Pearl thinks about his training methods and the humor in them, I was NOT laughing when my parents discovered NGJ and plumber's supply line. I was NOT laughing when I was punished for some, apparently minor, infraction. I was NOT laughing when I earned more spankings for crying. nope. not laughing. Michael Pearl's chickens and children and grandchildren might be laughing. But why? fear that if they don't laugh they'll meet with plumber's supply line?
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Post by WanderingOne on Mar 3, 2010 10:27:47 GMT -5
I've always wondered what kind of science is taught with this type of curriculum, but I guess I'm afraid to ask because I already know the answer. I imagine it's not big on evolution, archeology, or geology. Do they teach young Earth creationism? Yes. There's a sample wisdom booklet online here: ati.iblp.org/ati/about/curriculum/wisdombooklets/The curriculum we mostly used (Bob Jones), was big on young earth creationism as well--I came to college convinced that the earth is 6000 years old and that evolution is false.
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Post by WanderingOne on Mar 2, 2010 22:12:23 GMT -5
ugh. Ruth, I am so sorry. I went to IBLP seminars every few years, and my parents talked about doing ATI once, and got some samples that they made us do, but we never actually switched to ATI. We used a hodge-podge of various curricula...
In high school, I basically stopped doing my own schoolwork, to teach the younger ones. I read my lessons, but never actually did the schoolwork. And no one held me accountable.
I was fine in some subjects, but others...I was hopelessly behind. :S
I can't believe that someone would design a curriculum that is so...I don't know, I have no words. ugh. just ugh.
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Post by WanderingOne on Mar 1, 2010 14:13:00 GMT -5
re: the distinction between submission and obedience.
I am writing this as a student of ancient greek. I know koine. I know attic. I know homeric. I can read practically any dialect of greek you put in front of me. I've read the New Testament in Greek. I've read The Odyssey in Greek. I've read Plato, Sappho, and Aristophanes. I also have access to far better dictionaries and sources than Strong's and BLB, when it comes to greek words and their nuances of meaning. I say this only to establish that I know what I'm talking about, not to brag.
Now. 'upokasso means in the active voice "to place under" ('upo or "hupo" if you prefer, means under...). In the passive voice it used to mean to be obedient to, to be submissive to, to be placed under the authority of. It doesn't matter what dialect is being used--all three "shades of meaning" are present in koine and attic, at least. I don't know if 'upokasso is used in the passive voice in any other dialect--I can easily find out,but that's really irrelavent to this discussion.
Now, 'upakouo. It's basic meaning is to listen, harken, give ear. (literally, it might be, to hear under) In later texts, it used to mean to "answer when called;" then it is used of dependents and subjects--to mean to submit or comply. This is what it means in the New testament.
There is no real difference in meaning of the two words in the New testament. Attempts to create one are manufactured by people who fail to appreciate the way the Greek language works... It's silly. the words are synonymous. they are used interchangeably throughout Greek literature--including the New Testament. If you wanted to draw a distinction, the distinction *might* be that one is passive and one is active, and thus the emphasize different perspectives of the SAME action...(
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Post by WanderingOne on Mar 1, 2010 13:40:34 GMT -5
Oh Ruth.... This was so difficult for me to read. We didn't have a prayer closet--but we had something similar. I can't imagine being locked in there with the light out for so long. It seems like you could be describing my childhood here. I was the oldest and often placed in charge of the younger ones--so any of their misbehaviors were mine as well. If I told, I was tattling and was punished. If I didn't tell....I was punished for being an accomplice to their disobedience. It's terrifying. I'm so sorry you had do go through that. I wish no one did.
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Post by WanderingOne on Mar 1, 2010 12:30:17 GMT -5
I spent the first two and half years of college as...not quite a refugee...everyone was pressuring me to return to the first country--and i really, really wanted to. Except I was in love with my classes. Apart from classes, I hated school. haha. I was utterly terrified of the world. I was terrified of the music I heard in the dorms. I hated that I was surrounded by people who were drinking and partying and indulging in hedonist practices. I wasn't a refugee--I would be welcomed back if I returned. And I did return, during summers and other breaks. But living in the World changed me and eventually, I realized I couldn't stay in the old country anymore. I couldn't accept it's rules and practices. I was still afraid of the World, but I had to make it my new home. So over the past year, I've been trying to get used to this world and to learn more about. I mean, I've been here for a while, now--but I hardly know anything about it, since I spent so long focusing only on school. I'm getting there. I'm still hopeless ignorant about pop culture, but I'm making progress. I went to my senior ball this weekend--I drank, I danced with boys, I laughed with friends, I enjoyed the music, I wore makeup and a dress I never would have been caught dead in before. I had fun.
I like this new country and I like feeling like I'm not the weird awkward one...but a normal person.
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Post by WanderingOne on Feb 23, 2010 20:17:28 GMT -5
RunAwayBride, I hope you have not gone away for good! Your story--although just beginning--is very interesting. I think it's important for others to read--your perspective and insight are valuable. Your story, i think will be helpful for many people here. I really hope you will continue to share it. Please come back! Please continue your story!
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Post by WanderingOne on Feb 23, 2010 10:40:30 GMT -5
At one point, I was not allowed to spend the night with some girls from church. I do not remember why they were deemed to be too worldly, but they were. My father said, he was putting a"hedge of protection" around us.
Several of the books I read growing up emphasized that, by staying in her parents house until she married, a young woman was protecting herself from "worldly influences" that would corrupt her. While there were undoubtedly many pretty minor things that the authors had in mind as well, when I timidly set out for college, I was sure I would find nothing but a mess of sex, drugs, and alcohol, with people who wanted nothing more than to rob me of my purity. haha.
"Guard your heart" was a constant refrain that basically meant, "don't talk to boys."
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Post by WanderingOne on Feb 21, 2010 12:14:05 GMT -5
I saw that. The actual letter by Pearl is www.paradisepost.com/ci_14427371 Pearl seems to operate with different definitions of abuse, hit, corporal punishment, etc than the rest of the world. It makes me so angry that he can continue to justify this.
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Post by WanderingOne on Feb 20, 2010 17:54:03 GMT -5
Hm... well here are a couple of examples I came up with.
-I wasn't allowed to play with neighborhood children who did not go to my family's church. "bad company corrupts good character." "Blessed is the man who walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly" were among the verses memorized on this account.
-was sheltered and not exposed to books/movies/songs that were deemed to be "of the world" (Garbage in, garbage out the saying went).
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Post by WanderingOne on Feb 20, 2010 10:58:21 GMT -5
I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make between rod chastisement and child abuse. Yes, I know and understand why my parents adhered to NGJ/Pearls. Yes, I know that they were afraid for my soul and that they wanted me to go to heaven. Even now, some part of me says, "my parents did that out of love." Their love manifested itself in a pretty screwed up way--but, because they loved me, they wanted me to be a good, obedient, Christ-like, little girl. And they thought the way help me become such was through rod chastisement.
I understand what motivated my parents. I don't think that makes hitting children less abusive.
And, I speak--not only as a daughter of fundamentalist parents--but as a daughter of an alcoholic. Is there a difference between the rod and my daddy when he was drunk? yes. Is the difference that one situation was abusive and the other wasn't? no.
The difference is that the first, imo, is not just physical abuse, but mental and emotional abuse, because it screws with understandings of love.
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Post by WanderingOne on Feb 18, 2010 19:06:30 GMT -5
Runawaybride--thanks for sharing your story--like everyone else here I look forward to reading more!
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Post by WanderingOne on Feb 15, 2010 23:55:46 GMT -5
I am wondering, is this attitude of thinking little girls shouldn't be too rambunctious, common among QF/P folks? yup. The sisters, female cousins, and I weren't allowed to go outside and play if the boys were outside, because they might influence us and then we'd do unfeminine things and play games not appropriate for our gender or some craziness.
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Post by WanderingOne on Feb 15, 2010 23:44:23 GMT -5
YES! my parents and aunts and uncles certainly listened to--and used--both Dobson and Pearl. Although it was always clearly noted that Dobson was "too liberal" in many areas, his teachings about dealing with disagreements between parents and children were considered valuable.
I really, really wanted to be a good, obedient, and submissive daughter, but...man, sometimes it was just darn near impossible. I was accused of being manipulative, of not respecting authority, of trying to undermine my parents' wishes...and then all hell would break loose. =( I'm sure there are people who listen to Dobson, without going to the extremes that my family does. I am sure that many people who listen to Dobson would think that what my family does is wrong and unjustifiable...but you've got to admit that his teachings contain the seeds feed that sort of thing--and that they help those seeds grow.
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