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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on May 1, 2009 15:41:05 GMT -5
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Post by ismist on May 1, 2009 16:13:04 GMT -5
I can't discuss this post. I'm too upset. Ritual is more important to me than almost any other aspect of family, and I can't imagine the pain it would mean to have rituals I treasured taken away from me.
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Post by jemand on May 1, 2009 16:50:42 GMT -5
I have no words.
Was he a psychic vampire? Deriving joy by denying it from others?
And again... it looks like he was doing EVERYTHING he could to make your life unbearable, he wanted OUT of that marriage but did not want to be the "bad guy." Unfortunately, it seems a lot of people from your old life have not seen through that charade... the marriage was over long before you "abandoned" him or whatever guilt trip they put on....
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Post by coleslaw on May 1, 2009 17:07:33 GMT -5
That is a sad story. What does the 6 year old who wanted to keep celebrating New Year's Day think of this turnaround?
I'd be tempted to send a great big Christmas card every year with a printed message along the lines of "Wishing you all the joy of the season of giving" and a hand written note that says, "Isn't Christmas wonderful?" and a picture of you and Richard in front of an enormous tree, mistletoe optional. But then, I'm evil.
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ann5
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Post by ann5 on May 1, 2009 17:16:06 GMT -5
This post pushed me over the edge to sign up for this forum. And yet, I'm.. speechless. This was just devastating. I'm so sorry. The only thing I can think of, and I don't know if it helps or hurts, is that the presents and stockings from this year weren't about starting a new life with someone else, or about honoring what his new partner wanted. To me this sounds like a calculated move to hurt you. And to buy off the kids, of course. I guess I agree with others that he may have been trying to push you away, but perhaps he didn't bargain on you leaving with another guy (just a guess- we readers don't know all the details yet), so he still feels like he has to "get back" at you. Unbelievable though. Wow.
It seems like you've decided to background your kids on this blog and if so I fully support that, but I can't help wondering if some of the kids noticed the discrepancy and thought it was a little weird. Surely many of them are old enough to remember that it was Dad who banned Christmas and then banned New Years as well?
I hope you reach a point where you can enjoy the Holidays again.
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Post by sunflowermom on May 1, 2009 17:56:19 GMT -5
1st I will say I have been lurking on this site since it started. I have wanted to join in the discussions for a long time but just haven't. This made me feel it necessary to do so. What a horrible and evil thing for a person to do. From what I have read on all the posts he seems like a very very manipulative man and it is so sad that your kids are being dragged through this mess by him. As a mother myself I can only imagine the pain and heartache you are feeling right now. My heart goes out to both you Laura and Vyckie.
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marie
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Post by marie on May 1, 2009 18:57:31 GMT -5
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Post by angelreneetn on May 1, 2009 19:14:02 GMT -5
So steamingly infuriating now, but so accepted then... how women get trapped with men like this, I do not know, but it pains me. I truly want to inflict some sound justice, on Dale AND my step dad. I hate that they go unmolested and happily on their way. The small amount of satisfaction I have, I gain from watching my mom listen to music dad never allowed, or seeing countless toys for your children scattered about the house, and knowing that we are no longer enslaved to the whims of men who don't deserve that title.
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Post by tapati on May 1, 2009 19:49:04 GMT -5
I have no words. Was he a psychic vampire? Deriving joy by denying it from others? And again... it looks like he was doing EVERYTHING he could to make your life unbearable, he wanted OUT of that marriage but did not want to be the "bad guy." Unfortunately, it seems a lot of people from your old life have not seen through that charade... the marriage was over long before you "abandoned" him or whatever guilt trip they put on.... I think you are right--whether on a conscious level or not, he was trying to push her to leave for quite some time before she left. He was possibly even frustrated by her incredible endurance. Evil, evil man.
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Post by arietty on May 1, 2009 20:14:40 GMT -5
When I got to the end of the post where it says "Discuss!" my head burst with "I can't, I can't, it's just too painful!!"
Oh Laura. You have my deep sympathy.
I have seen this dynamic MANY times with divorced men. My ex gave away our big television and bought a tiny one so that we "did not feel tempted to watch television". What did he do approximately 5 seconds after the divorce? Buy a massive television.
It just highlights how arbitrary and based on their own whims these supposedly godly family decisions are that they impose on others.
I think it's Cheryl Lindsey Seelhoff that talks in a few places about seeing these QF men get mail order brides after their wives divorced them. My ex has had a series of live in girlfriends all the while still roundly condemning me in christian terms for my sin of divorce.
I don't know if you still talk to Dale but I'm curious if you were ever able to ask him why you were not allowed to have Christmas but his new wife is?
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Volly
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Post by Volly on May 1, 2009 21:02:14 GMT -5
Laura, Your post certainly resonated with me. While we were not Quiverfull and my ex-husband was not even Christian, the dynamic of our marriage was similar to yours in many ways. My ex was Jewish, but his only means of identifying himself this way was by rejection of mainstream concepts that derived from gentile culture. Therefore, he never celebrated the Jewish high holy days or Chanukah, but was nonetheless adamantly against Christmas trees or wreaths (we did, however, exchange gifts). But like you, I craved that cliche, suburban atmosphere that other people around us enjoyed at holiday time. I never stopped looking for ways to circumvent my husband's "rules" about the holidays. First came the wreath: it was purchased from a charity, hand-made by poor people in Appalachia. So it wasn't a common, store-bought wreath; it was a philanthropic gesture, and saying no to it would have made him look like a hypocrite. So he "tolerated" the wreath on the front door, mainly because he went in and out of the house through the garage and "wouldn't have to look at it." Then, when we became parents, I had free reign to put up every silly little school-made decoration that my son brought home. By the time he was in kindergarten, our home looked very "Christmassy," indeed. But the first Christmas after the divorce, you KNOW I went all-out with the biggest fresh-cut Frasier fir I could afford and fit into our small apartment. We had a cat, too -- another thing my ex had always said no to. That was a wonderful Christmas and my son and I enjoyed it greatly. Shortly after the divorce, my husband met his current wife. She was from a wealthy family -- very gentile and very traditional. You better believe she gets that Christmas tree every year and decorates the house any old way she wants. She's the meal ticket, after all...
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lectio
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Post by lectio on May 1, 2009 21:26:42 GMT -5
OH.
That story was so disturbing.
Just so you know, I beyond related to the first part. My husband to, our first year of marriage, declared that Christmas tree's were ungodly. I had my collection of ornaments from my mom and I was just heart-broken. I went along with it, of course, because he was so godly and righteous and I figured if one of us was wrong, it must be me. The next year I was equally heart-broken. I remember that I ended up thumb-tacking my ornaments around our fireplace. He was not happy with it, but he let it slide. No stockings, either. All of that stuff is pagan, you know, and we're Real True Christians, so we don't need that silly holiday stuff---we get our joy from the Lord, not from temporal earthly things like celebrations.
It made for a very dark and depressing December, and like you, I felt very voiceless.
Eventually in later years (6 or 7, I think) my husband did decide that Christmas trees were okay. I thoroughly enjoyed the change. What fun December is with a holiday to brighten it up, not to mention all the memories from my own childhood and the fun of making them for my kids. All the same, those early years were taken from me, and no apologies were ever made. As the authority, it's was his prerogative to allow a tree or not, and my only obligation was to cheerfully obey.
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lectio
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Post by lectio on May 1, 2009 21:28:04 GMT -5
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Post by arietty on May 2, 2009 0:20:17 GMT -5
I used to find Christmas sooo horrible and stressful. Trying to squeeze all that religious meaning into it to make sure we were doing it right. It seemed every christmas season there would be a sermon about how we should focus on Jesus's birth and not let ourselves lose sight of this because of busy-ness.. which was just another lecture about how we could potentially fail at christmas. And who was doing all the busy-ness that pulled them away from Jesus? The women of course. SO it was always TONS to do, tons to not do (like Santa), making sure it was all done right and that the kid were not present obsessed but truly getting that Jesus is the Reason for the Season blah blah..
We no longer have a religious christmas. I just gave up on the whole thing. We have tons of food, tons of tacky decorations which amuse the older ones and delight the younger ones, and tons of gifts as we can afford them. It's just a big old family festival of eating and drinking and playing loud music and games and other stuff people got as presents. We have tons of fun.
And.. we have like, FOUR trees. Because I like trees so I buy new ones every year (fake, garish trees.. we are aiming to get a pink one this year to add to the forest).
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Post by luneargentee on May 2, 2009 6:19:06 GMT -5
At first, all I could do was swear after reading this post. I believe that these kind of men are testing their wives. They want to see how far they can push them before they fight back. Of course, being QF, the women will either suck it in and die a slow death or finally leave, like Laura and Vyckie. Then they get a mail order bride who has to put up with this crap, at least until they get a green card, or they find a woman who won't take it and makes it clear that she's a partner, not a servant.
My parents became Jehovah's Witnesses when I was twelve. No Christmases, no birthday parties, no Halloween or Thanksgiving or Easter or Independence Day. It's bad enough to lose all those fun times at that age, but I also lost family who didn't convert. However, the worst was being in school while the other kids were having fun with holiday preparations and I could not participate.
Now, I'm a pretty happy Pagan. And if you want to borrow our traditions, have at! I have not pushed my religion onto my children. They will have to decide for themselves, but once I had children we really started to celebrate Christmas. I try to keep it within limits, same with their birthdays, as I don't want them focusing on two days a year to score presents (my younger son was born only a week before Christmas, which would be a long drought without presents), so I gift them with things throughout the year, especially if they volunteer to take on extra chores and/or do well in school.
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Post by pandapaws on May 2, 2009 7:19:42 GMT -5
Dale wasn't happy enough to just to abuse you and cause you mental anguish during your marriage. He had to continue it even after you were divorced! Sick bastard.
It made me so sad that when he said God had told him no more Christmas or gifts on New Years, that the kids for the most part just went along with him. That just isn't normal. It's like the were brainwashed or in fear of disagreeing with him.
Laura, I don't know if you have said it before, but why did he get custody of the kids? Is it because you left so therefore you were unworthy? I have a feeling when your kids grow up and understand the extent of what went on in that household they are going to resent him like nobody's business.
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Post by coleslaw on May 2, 2009 11:02:28 GMT -5
The problem is that Laura had become the "bad object". "Objects that are experienced at the same time as emotions are causally associated with the emotions and loved or hated accordingly." It's a concept my counselor explained to me back when my normally adorable husband was going through a bad patch in his life and it was somehow all my fault. Interestingly enough, his counselor (whom I saw once or twice), said the same thing. I am sure if I had given up and left him during those days, whoever he hooked up next would have gotten the royal treatment in all the areas that had been a source of conflict between us.
But to get back to Laura and her situation, it's obvious from her stories that she had become the bad object for Dale - the source of all his fears, frustrations, dilemmas, world hunger and the situation in the Middle East. I suspect when I read the accounts of his more and more idiosyncratic ideas regarding true Christian behavior and his "love affair with God" that what really was happening during that time was that he was losing his faith, not gaining it. And who better to blame for that than the wife reared as an atheist by Lesbian parents? She was just about typecast for the role.
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Post by tapati on May 2, 2009 13:40:58 GMT -5
I was pondering Dale's treatment of his new wife last night and some thoughts occurred to me.
First off, abusers are really canny about knowing when it's time to push their controlling agenda in a new relationship. They won't do it one minute sooner than their new wife will accept it without fleeing. For guys who say "I just lost control" so much, they are very self-controlled when they need to be. So right now, this new marriage is in a honeymoon phase.
I was also thinking that Dale's new relationship is especially tricky for him as a controlling bastard because he NEEDS for this new wife to happily take care of so many children that are not even hers. So the usual honeymoon period an abuser allows for is likely to be extended until or unless he is damn sure that she's bonded enough with the kids to be happy about caring for them or really sad to leave them behind. [Obviously the main reason this guy is keeping the children is to hurt Laura--I can't imagine that a guy who was so clueless about his children's lives before the divorce is suddenly so attached to them that he really wants them for their own sake. That in itself is heartbreaking for the kids. In this case, the arrows are truly being used as a weapon.]
When abuse includes indoctrination into a cult-system, the process an abuser goes through in getting his new wife hooked is even more complicated. Dale didn't start out with Laura by listing all the things she'd later be expected to do either!
I'm reminded of that phrase about absolute power corrupting absolutely...a truism that seems to be left out of consideration when constructing this paradigm of the husband being in total control of the family.
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Post by luneargentee on May 2, 2009 16:07:31 GMT -5
tapati,
I think Dale's new marriage is going to be very interesting to watch in its development. It's possible he will gradually wear the new wife down, or he may move toanother church/version of belief that allows him to move away from QF.
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aimai
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Post by aimai on May 2, 2009 17:01:18 GMT -5
Laura, I finally read all the way to the end of the Santa vs. Satan thing and I just about died. Really, my rage is so great on your behalf that I'm just sickened. And yet, as the others have said, I'm not surprised. Its pretty clear that Dale had some serious issues that he was simply using headship and christianity to handle instead of facing up to them like a man. One of his issues is that he's a childish, spiteful, personality. Really, no other kind of person would lash out at his parents and at his own fear of the void by taking Christmas and gifts away from his wife and children. No adult person would return from that Brazil trip and determine to change a family custom for fear of what complete strangers might think if they should find out about that custom. In fact exchanging presents wasn't a form of pagan propitiation of god so why on earth would a sane person decide to act as though it was? If some stranger on a beach said “oh, you eat dinner in the evening just the way we do here in Brazil” would a normal person rush home and order that there be no more evening meal for fear of spiritual contamination? Come on—its perfectly nuts.
Second of all the whole deal with the new girlfriend/new wife is, as others have said, just the homeymoon phase of the typical abuser. I feel really sorry for that woman. Such a quick meeting and marriage is not healthy for anyone, let alone a woman with her own children to care for meeting up with a guy with eight kids to care for. Real life isn't the Brady Bunch crossed with the Partridge Family even though that would have made a nifty TV series. I tend to think that that marriage, if it lasts, will look very different from Dale and Laura's because Dale has a lot more riding on it working out. And this new woman has a lot less than Laura had invested. But I also fear for her. As the others have said this is not an instantaneous movement from normal married couple all the way to authoritarian tyrant with submissive wife. Its a slow, steady, drop by drop kind of progression. Isolation, deskilling, correction, abuse. Only when Dale feels safe—if he ever does—that he can fully dominate her without her leaving will he reveal his true colors to her. And by then it may be too late. I'd say her willingness and ability to drop everything and marry a complete stranger is a very bad sign that she won't have the external resources to move out on him when he starts getting controlling again.
aimai
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Post by stampinmama on May 2, 2009 19:04:51 GMT -5
As I read Laura's post, I related to quite a bit of it. I well remember growing up and celebrating Christmas like everyone else, and then going through a very meager Christmas that changed my life. Just two years after that meager Christmas, my parents pulled us out of public school and went down the patriarchal/QF path and the new church that we were attending shunned Christmas as a pagan holiday. While I had been changed in a different way to see the holiday as a way that I could spread love, my parents viewed the holiday as a way to buck the mainstream Christian tradition of Christmas. Even though they believed it was an evil holiday, they tried to include people that were without family on that day by inviting people to our house for a big pot luck meal and everyone brought their instruments and board games. It was a lot of fun and us kids looked forward to it. While I was fine with no Christmas tree or gifts for reasons of not feeling like I needed either (also, spending 2 months in Africa opened my eyes to how much I had and how little others had), the rest of my family became VERY opposed to the idea of Christians celebrating the holiday. We did the "after New Years" gift swap for a while, too, but just didn't take part in the Christian tradition of celebrating Christ's birth on Dec. 25th. We also had a family business (actually, 2 of them) that made it impossible for us to shop beforehand anyway. So, like Laura's family, we did the after New Year's swap and got things that were on sale, or we hand made our gifts, since we didn't have much money as a family. Years later, after my parents left the patriarchal lifestyle, they started doing the tree and gifts again. Mostly for the grandkids and such. Things were still paired down, for the sake of money, but this was after I left home and got married. Interestingly, my hubby grew up in a cult that also shunned Christmas, although his mother was so in love with the holiday that she insisted on having it and not letting any of the other people in their cult know. My MIL took it to a whole new extreme, though. It got to the point about 5 or 6 years ago that we told them we would never spend another holiday with them again, especially Christmas (long story short, our starter on our van blew out on Christmas morning while we were visiting them in PA - we live in VT - and we got blamed for ruining their Christmas because our car trouble ruined their shortbread and stocking tradition). My parents no longer do a tree now, though, because they live on their sailboat and it's kind of difficult to have a tree in a sailboat. My sister has a tree every year. My youngest brother doesn't really care one way or the other because he never has any extra money to get one, to decorate it with or to even buy stuff to put under it. He also lives with a roommate, so they're usually working too many hours to even enjoy it anyway. Then there's my hubby and I. We don't celebrate it with any religious connotations, though we are Christians. Not because we believe it's a pagan holiday, but because we just don't get into the big hoopla of it all. For so many years, I and my hubby lived without it that it wasn't a big deal for us to go back to doing it. I have to admit....my kids have never gotten a Christmas gift from my husband and I. My hubby and I don't give gifts to each other either. There are reasons behind this, though, and a lot of it has to do with past circumstances and seeing families live without and having gone through that ourselves when I was still young. I wrote up a post about it on my blog here: stampinmama.typepad.com/stampin_mama_a_mama_that_/2007/12/p-a-onclick-win.html
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Post by barbaraw on May 2, 2009 20:36:54 GMT -5
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Post by tapati on May 3, 2009 1:48:19 GMT -5
tapati, I think Dale's new marriage is going to be very interesting to watch in its development. It's possible he will gradually wear the new wife down, or he may move toanother church/version of belief that allows him to move away from QF. One thing is clear: Dale will do whatever is best for Dale.
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Post by krwordgazer on May 3, 2009 2:09:02 GMT -5
This story is horrible-- and also confusing. In every evangelical or fundamentalist church I know, Dale would be disfellowshipped for living with a woman outside marriage-- even if it was only for a month. Was he still going to church at the time? Did he manage to keep it a secret somehow? I cannot understand how a man who would be so legalistic that he would turn away from Christmas as a "pagan holiday" (an issue on which even fundamentalists differ widely) would then turn around and live with a woman outside marriage-- an absolute no-no for all fundamentalists! I just can't understand how he could justify this to himself. Every indication is that he's got some sort of mental issues, of course. But why no church has ever called him on this behavior is beyond me. I think it's horrible. Laura, that he gave the kids Christmas using the ornaments you bought them as gifts. By all rights, those are your ornaments to celebrate with the kids in your home. The injustice and cruelty of the whole thing is just staggering-- not just that you went through it, but that it seems so familiar to others here as well.
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Post by madame on May 3, 2009 5:06:49 GMT -5
Oh dear, that sounds so painful.... I would have gotten him on the phone and screamed at him until my voice was gone. That is so awful...
On the subject of Christmas and not celebrating it, I have to admit, I understand Dale to an extent. He felt betrayed by his parents, he wasn't going to make his children go through the same crisis. A crisis of faith is no small deal, and I can't imagine what it would be like to doubt God (and whatever else your parents have taught you to be true) at such an early age!
You reached a good compromise there, exchanging gifts on New Years, even if it wasn't "exactly" Christmas. Why couldn't he have suggested having the exchange a few days earlier or later? You could have found a date that was meaningful to you both, when you could have a massive gift exchange! If he loved you, he would have seen that decorating the house, buying and exchanging gifts, were important to you. But he didn't . Did you challenge his new decision? did you tell him what it meant to you? Or had you given up by then? Our last Christmas was a disaster. I wanted to decorate. I asked dh what he thought about tree, presents, a nice dinner... nothing huge. Dh wasn't up to talking about it. So in the end, we didn't really celebrate Christmas. For me it's not so much about having it one special way as it is to have traditions that will give us and our children memories. Traditions are important.
To explain why Dale chose to celebrate Christmas "properly" with his girlfriend and all the kids, two reasons come to mind:
- he's trying very hard not to make the mistakes he made with you and is hoping that by letting her have things her way she will stay. Maybe he truly regrets how he kept that from you. Maybe she told him how important Christmas is for her. Maybe the children wanted to use the ornaments that you so lovingly bought for them.
- It was an one-off compromise. Bear in mind it's five days before their wedding. Denying her something important to her might mean losing her.
I hope Dale is committed to mend his ways and try to make this new wife happy. Maybe she will open his eyes to the way he hurt you, and eventually lead him to see how you miss your children. people can and do change. I hope Dale is one of them.
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