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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on May 13, 2009 7:05:21 GMT -5
Check it out: www.nolongerquivering.com ~ We have our own domain name ~ thanks to a supportive NLQ forum member who had the forethought and generosity to purchase the domain "to ease problems with future growth and to make sure that nobody can steal [the NLQ] domain name." Awesome. So this brings up a subject which I've been kicking around in my head ~ and thought I'd throw it out here in the hopes of getting some ideas and maybe even some help with "future growth" for NLQ. I have been thinking that I'd really like to expand to an actual website with more flexibility than Blogger ~ but I'm pretty clueless about all that so have been talking to Kaderin (the NLQ "Design Girl") and we've been batting a few ideas back and forth. It'd be great to have an NLQ FAQ, possibly a YouTube video to introduce NLQ, any other suggestions? Anyone want to help? It would really be nice to get some more publicity too. I've been thinking of a way to capitalize on all the publicity which the Duggars (18 and Counting) are receiving ~ they are getting fairly favorable press and as such, they're very much role models for the quiverfull movement (even though they deny being part of the "quiverull movement.") I used to seriously idolize Michelle Duggar ~ and I'm thinking that maybe it would be possible to position myself as something like: former Michelle Duggar devotee is now an open critic of the large, biblical-family "vision." or something like that ~ not that I want to personally attack Michelle Duggar ~ but I definitely want to come out strongly against the whole qf/p vision ~ the belief system and lifestyle which underlies the Duggar family dynamic. Kaderin suggested also that I might be able to make NLQ popular with the "New Atheists" ~ my critique of Evangelical Christianity from a former-insider could be a good draw. So ~ I'd like to write some articles for Slate, Alternet, etc. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. So ~ what do you think? Please post your suggestions here.
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Post by rosa on May 13, 2009 9:13:39 GMT -5
I would love a blogroll of women who have left various religions, and women who have transitioned from patriarchal churches to more egalitarian ones.
Also a strong comments policy (which I know is a lot of work for the moderators, but it makes boards readable) and a tip jar.
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Post by sargassosea on May 13, 2009 9:34:55 GMT -5
Well, since you asked… Fantastico! I heartily agree that now is the time to get up a really public opposition voice – Because the longer folks like the Duggars go on with this the more normalized it becomes. This in turn directly affects the thinking of the “little-p patriarchy” (phraseology courtesy Rosa!) which sets the standards for women everywhere. And I really don’t want my daughter to inherit a world that is any more oppressive to women’s freedom than it already is, dig? I would prefer that she not be getting the message from her society that submitting to your man, as to god, and having a lot of kids on this already seriously overloaded planet is, like, totally radical! So, yeah, I’m up on raisin’ a little awareness. I’m sure you and Kaderin have discussed the need for Posting Rules, like how many women have to complain before someone goes bye-bye? More publicity (yay) = more Trolls (booo). I do not like Trolls because they are mean, but they are tasty. Trolls should be roasted, to a nice medium-rare, in hell and served with asparagus spears under tarragon cream and a nice Chianti We could have a code word, oh, say, like, *siriusly* that would alert the ladies to a potential Troll as in: “Well, so & so, do you siriusly believe that?”, and then the Troll will turn around and accuse us of having bad spelling and grammar skilz!, and then the ladies will point and laugh and complain to a Moderator – for which position I personally volunteer if you would have me! – and/or Administrator. It also supplies NLQ a humorous, historical and practical *Tribal Identity* slogan. It also has the appeal of Husband of the Year, Billy in Texas thinking that he’s *won* [Vyckie - Feel free to delete this paragraph –or the whole damn thing for that matter - at any time in the future should the (need for the) siriusly thing start happening] All joking aside, our first real interloper was very upsetting and I really, really don’t want to see something like that again when it can be prevented. This is a place for women ‘in recovery’ (and I think all women are in a recovery of some sort) and are in need of a safe place to be. I like it here; I like the ladies and I, myself, don’t want no jerks screwin’ it up. As always, Vyckie, let me know if you could use a hand with something. I don’t have much money (who does?!) but time, intelligence and an axe to grind will, I got. And, good on you Anonymous Domain Name Purchaser Person! The gift that keeps on giving…
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Post by grandmalou on May 13, 2009 9:56:12 GMT -5
Sea (Can I call you that?)... Also Kidly (AKA Vyckie)... You are SIRIUSLY making me ROTFLMAO!!! and I second all that you say, not much money, a little time, and willing to help...whatcha got? Love to all who come here for support, healing, cyber hugs ((( ))) Grandma Lou
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Post by sargassosea on May 13, 2009 10:52:22 GMT -5
Grandma Lou - Why, heck, I'd be honored
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on May 13, 2009 12:24:46 GMT -5
A blogroll is an excellent idea ~ I'm going to start a different thread where you all can submit blogs and websites which you'd like to see listed in the NLQ blogroll. As far as having a comments policy ~ anyone want to create the critter for me? I like Sea's idea of having a troll alert code word ~ and I agree that "siriusly" would be perfect. My apologies for taking so long to banish sirius ~ I was keeping busy with writing and such ~ and I could see that a few of the members seemed to be enjoying toying around with him ~ but after a while, it did seem like it was taking over and distracting from the productive discussions here ~ so, thanks to those who sent a private message requesting that he be banned. Anyone want to volunteer to put together a FAQ? I could start a new thread to take suggestions and then some helpful person could assemble the Q & A in some sort of logical, readable format. Rosa ~ is there a difference between a "tip jar" and a paypal donation button? We have one of those and, so far, it mostly gets ignored. Any other suggestions? Thanks so much for your input.
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Post by rosa on May 13, 2009 14:01:01 GMT -5
Well, i hadn't even noticed your donation button, so that's the difference to me.
If there's a non-paypal one, that might be nice, but i don't know if it's too much work. I can't use paypal for stupid and complicated reasons, and i don't think i'm alone on that.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on May 13, 2009 14:16:55 GMT -5
Well, i hadn't even noticed your donation button, so that's the difference to me. If there's a non-paypal one, that might be nice, but i don't know if it's too much work. I can't use paypal for stupid and complicated reasons, and i don't think i'm alone on that. Anyone know how to set-up a non-paypal "tip jar"?
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Post by princessjo1988 on May 13, 2009 18:20:10 GMT -5
Hi All, Re: the comment rule thing: whilst in theory I support it, I think too it's really important not to punish people for going off topic (if it's part of the natural lay of conversation: a discussion about fundamentalist clothing leading to a topic like body image for eg). I know at twop, where there is a specific Duggar board, people are banned suspended etc, for going anywhere near off topic: and some people understandably got quite upset about that (in that case, instead of talking about the show, they were discussing the belief system/lifestyle choices of the Duggars). As for trolls, I just don't like them: I come here to have a healthy debate, in a nonconfrontational manner. As for advertising, what about starting with google? Your presence is lacking slightly I googled "former quiverfull": and found no direct link to your website in the first 5 pages. Same thing for "ex-quiverfull", "no longer quiverfull". Using a website that analyses webtraffic, these were your results: www.webtraffic24.com/nolongerquivering.comAt the moment I would guess a great deal of your hits are "referred" from a middle man website: which is fantastic, but limiting in terms of exposure etc. Here are some ideas on how to maximise your online exposure: www.textlinkbrokers.com/blog/more/232_0_1_0_M/And also try out google webmaster's tools. I think capitalising on the duggar phenomenon would work...I know for my site a great deal of the "search hits" come from people looking for "duggar" "sin in the camp" etc . I love the idea of a FAQ section... But I would suggest perhaps having a text format as well as a video. I think it is important to realise that not everyone has the quickest internet etc (Australia for example, lags behind the USA in terms of speed: its painful and expensive) and that we are trying to extend a hand to those leaving the belief system (and I would imagine most, due to financial reasons, wouldn't have the best internet). But also, I think it is really important to have a section just about 'what is' the whole belief system surrounding quiverful etc. You have most certainly begun with the "What's it about" series, but maybe if you were to put it all together, perhaps with added imput from the others on the site? And maybe, when you make the move from blogger, instead of having them all listed individually on your side bar into a tab of some sort. Ok: now that I have come across as insufferable know it all lol: I have a new idea! What is the possiblity of having guest bloggers (on a weekly, monthly basis: whatever suits you)? It would give you the capability of having some time off too. I was thinking of perhaps Cheryl/heart from women's space as one, but it could be anyone. It's a way of getting some publicity too Hope those help
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Post by barbaraw on May 13, 2009 20:45:14 GMT -5
As for advertising, what about starting with google? Are you talking about using advertising to drum up visitors or to make money for the site? For either, actually, you might want to try youdata.com. They're looking for new users and new advertisers all of the time. If you use it to make money, basically, only visitors to your site who belong to youdata will see the ads, and both you and the visitors will get paid for the ads that run. Additionally, after the visitors gets paid, supposedly they will get the option of sharing some of their profits with you, too. I say "supposedly" because I've never actually seen any ads on the blogs that run them. I get my youdata fixes right at the source. {disclaimer}I don't have any stake in youdata. I just am an enthusiastic user. I've made a whole, like, $7 through them that I wouldn't've had otherwise and hope that someday I'll make it to $10!{/disclaimer}
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Post by kisekileia on May 14, 2009 3:36:00 GMT -5
Go on DailyKos and see if you can get in touch with "dogemperor" there. She's an expert on spiritual abuse by the Christian far right, and is one of the admins of a large LiveJournal community (dark_christian) that's assembled a lot of research on it. I think you and she could connect up quite profitably.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on May 14, 2009 19:19:43 GMT -5
Okay ~ I "personalized" the donate button ~ and now it's a "Tip Jar" (thanks for that, Rosa) ~ check it out on the blog and let me know what you think. I had it buried in the sidebar links, but after some of the comments I've received about members who did not even notice the button ~ decided to put it right where no-one will miss it. Do you think that's too blatant? I've noticed on other sites which have a donate button ~ it's always placed pretty prominently. I do want to add to this discussion about growth that when I mentioned getting more publicity ~ I really did not have "making money" in mind. I'm just thinking of ways to increase awareness of NLQ because I believe that what we have going here (thanks to all of you) is really a phenomenal community ~ and I believe that NLQ has something to offer to hurting women who have been used and abused by Patriarchy ~ as well as by "little-p patriarchy." I am working on implementing the ideas which have been added to this thread ~ I'm going through the posts and adding tags because those will be picked up on by the search engines. However, I believe that the majority of traffic is going to come from referrals from other websites ~ which is why it's important to post links to No Longer Quivering whenever it is applicable. Often in the mornings while I'm getting the kids ready for school, I browse the popular websites and when I come across an article which is relevant to the NLQ message, I post a comment with a link to the blog. (How many are here because you followed one of those comment links? I know there are quite a few ) I'm still considering pitching articles to related websites also. Jo ~ I like the idea of having guest bloggers. I recently posted a comment from Lectio which I dug out of the comment section on the blog because I was so impressed with the quality of her response to a "happy full-quiver-er." I'd like to have the time to dig out others because I know that there are quite a few comments which deserve more attention than being buried in the comments or on the forums. I wonder if it's possible to establish some sort of system in which members could draw my attention to these excellent comments ~ maybe just post a quick nomination or something? No takers on the FAQ preparation job? NLQ introductory video on YouTube? Anyone want to volunteer to administrate the NLQ Facebook group? Last I checked there are about 40 members ~ no real activity though. Anyone with blog experience (either as a blogger or reader of blogs) have an opinion about the possibility of moving NLQ from Blogger to WordPress? I know it was suggested early on ~ supposedly, importing from Blogger to WordPress is a fairly simple process ~ and I've heard that WordPress offers more options. Well ~ that's enough for now. Just really hoping for input because some days I really feel overwhelmed by all of this.
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Post by sargassosea on May 15, 2009 9:07:50 GMT -5
This morning I took the liberty of inviting feminist-blogger-lady Sady at tigerbeatdown.blogspot.com/ to come on over and have a look. Sady gives excellent (and hysterically funny) feminist analysis on popular culture - her readership is kind of small at this point, but she's catching on too. I bring this up because I have concerns, therefore am being highly mindful, about just dropping NLQ's name any 'ol damn place because, while we're all sure we only hang out with the coolest kids on the internet, I think that sometimes our personal interests should be kept in separate realms. I mean, like, just as you might not introduce a couple of your friends to each other sensing that they would clash, I know I will not be inviting some of my *supercool* socialist (eeekkk!) blogger men to come hang out and wax all philosophical on the oppression of women because no matter what they say they don't really get it at all, this patriarchy business and that's kinda triggering to me. So, I guess, I'm just saying...
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Post by AustinAvery on May 15, 2009 12:49:58 GMT -5
Sargassosea,
Your "just saying" post has been a "trigger" for me this morning, but I do not mean that in any pejorative sense. It just gave me a lot to think about and a question to ask.
Admittedly, while I read lots of posts on this site, I check for yours first--well, second after Vyckie's. They are the most intriguing and are often thought provoking. That being said, many women who post here have made it clear that this forum is a safe place to give expression to thoughts and feelings. As a male, I might have the effect, whether intended or not, of casting a shadow (for lack of a better term) over these discussions, and I really don't want to do that.
Which brings me to your "socialist" male friends reference. Having socialist sympathies myself, I may fit quite well in the mold of those friends--friends whom you would not invite here because they never quite get the patriarchy business and that irks you.
I may not get it either, and perhaps I can't given my gender, but I do offer an analogy for you--and anyone else who reads this--to distinguish, correct, or just consider.
I'm not African American (hereinafter for convenience "black"), but I've always wanted to understand the black perspective in America--particularly because I came of age in the late 60's and early 70's when race relations were so ugly. So I've read and listened to many black intellectuals--Patricia J. Williams, Derek Bell, Bell Hooks, Cornell West, and others of less note from time to time. I've also read fiction from black writers--The Color Purple, and The Invisible Man come to mind (and I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings sits on my bookshelf making me feel guilty that it remains unread).
While I can probably never really experience being black in America, literature, both prose and fiction, that explains the black experience from an insider's perspective gives me considerable insight into the "the other," weakening those barriers. I think that is worthwhile.
Here, too, I can read posts without ever singing on and learn a great deal about female experiences that are totally unknown to me. (I've been lucky in that nothing like the awful experiences I've read about here ever went on in my family, and my mother was a feminist before feminism was cool--with apologies to Barbara Mandrell).
On the other hand, I like to throw in my two cents worth--as the length of this post makes obvious. So, is it helpful to have a male perspective here (aside from guys like Sirius, who was just an ass hat) assuming that we use, for ground rules, something like Covey's maxim from The Seven Habits :
"The single most important principle in the field of interpersonal relations is this: Seek first to understand, then to be understood. Most people listen, not with the intent to understand, but with the intent to reply."
-- Steven R. Covey
Or, and I say this sincerely and will take no offense at anyone's response, is it best that this site remain a sanctuary with minimal male input (which doesn't mean I'll stop reading, I'll just be more circumscript)?
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Post by anatheist on May 15, 2009 13:36:17 GMT -5
I would definitely like to keep hearing from you and from other men, austinavery.
Although I agree that we want to keep our membership centered around those affected by patriarchy, it would be interesting to hear from some men, either as members or guest bloggers, if there are any speaking openly, who have been in the Quiverfull movement and then rejected it in favor of equality. It would be useful to understand the mentality of "the other side" from a man who now realizes that the beliefs he was following were harmful, even if he were not an abuser himself.
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Post by sargassosea on May 15, 2009 14:01:51 GMT -5
Hey Austinavery - when I'm talking about dudes, that doesn't necessarily automatically include you unless, of course, you are a self-proclaimed asshat yourself Naw, man, I'm saying that I (in my many years) have heard from tons 'o *liberal/socialist/ communist* dudes who really don't give a flying squirrel for the ladies' issues but nevertheless pretend to so they can hear themselves talk. So thanks for doing more listening... I'm totally with Atheist on hearing from the (gosh I hope there are some!) guys who have escaped oppressive religious patriarchy. The ORP! That made me laugh. I'm gonna say it all day.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on May 15, 2009 14:16:10 GMT -5
I'm totally with Atheist on hearing from the (gosh I hope there are some!) guys who have escaped oppressive religious patriarchy. The ORP! That made me laugh. I'm gonna say it all day. Good one, Sea ~ I'm cracking up too. I definitely appreciate your comments here, austinavery ~ and eriktrips too ~ where's he been lately? greviousangle too. You all are welcome here. Busy day here ~ I was in the mood to write this a.m. so finished up the latest installment of my story ~ and now I only have about an hour to get dressed and clean up the house before the kids get home. Actually, I think I'll just get dressed and let them help me clean up. We're having a belated birthday party for Lydia Jean this evening ~ pizza, cake, a movie, roasting marshmallows in the fire pit, and a sleep over. Fun, huh? So anyway ~ more later.
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Post by jemand on May 17, 2009 13:15:23 GMT -5
I'm totally with Atheist on hearing from the (gosh I hope there are some!) guys who have escaped oppressive religious patriarchy. What about the groups helping young men thrown out of polygamous Mormon groups? They've kinda been forced out of oppressive religious patriarchy... I imagine they have amazing stories to tell as well and must be hurting some too from what they saw their mothers and sisters go through. As for the guys on here, the current ones seem really nice, but for some reason I haven't really invited my male friends in real life here, while they are great guys themselves they generally don't spend that much time thinking about abuse issues, they are unlikely to be targets and aren't going to be perpetrators so I guess it's totally off their radar screens, I guess I'm ok with that but I'm not inviting them over.
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Post by Kaderin on May 18, 2009 5:28:19 GMT -5
Grrr I'd typed up a really lengthy reply but then my computer croaked. Curse you, windows! Can't wait to have my Mac back *sniff* Anyways... Some of you may have noticed that I've been absent these last two weeks. I was visiting my mom and had no internet - pure torture for computer science student *heh* So I'm a bit behind on my reading here... First of all: Yay for the domain! I send a big cyberhug to whoever it was. Now was the domain purchased with webspace? If not, we have to find a free webhoster. Suggestions? Now about the website FAQ. I've given it some thought and came up with this: 1. What is QF? (A summary of the doctrine, maybe a literature list of books that lead down that path)
2. Who are you? (Introduction of Vicky and Laura, links to their stories)
3. What's this site about? (To raise awareness of a harmful doctrine, broad outline of criticism points)And then start the questions rebutting objections raised so far. This also has the great effect of preemptively striking trolls. 4. What's wrong with female submission/male leadership? (sanctions emotional abuse and even creates abusers; happy relationships are with spouses treating each other as partners, even if nominally with headship)
5. Your experiences are subjective, how can you say the problem lies with the QF doctrine and not with your individual relationship? (doctrine gave power to the abuser, sides with him over the victim, places responsibility on victim (Be more submissive!) and allows no escape(divorce))
6. I'm a happy QF wife/husband, I am not abused/abusive, how dare you make broad judgement about the happiness of our relationship? (link to the blog post "Dear happy QFers" or a reply along the same lines)Aaaand that's all I can think of right now. A very broad outline - feel free to add or critizise! I second sea - we definitly need to define what is grounds for banning. I suggest - repeated insults to other members - disrespectful tone/excessive swearing (?)/disrupting conversation (as in what sirius was doing... going on and on incoherently and then not listening to other members' POV) after 2. rebuke from Vicky (or other mods to be appointed?) - and I really want to add "mysoginy", but then again... if we get a current QF member s/he'll certainly hold mysoginist views, but if s/he is willing to learn we shouldn't turn him/her out. So let's say... "unrepentant mysoginy"? Again, suggestions? Feedback? Oh, and I siriusly love sea's trolling idea. It's like our own secret handshake! *lol* I also love the guestblogging idea Kaderin, over and out.
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Post by tapati on May 18, 2009 12:15:14 GMT -5
Well, i hadn't even noticed your donation button, so that's the difference to me. If there's a non-paypal one, that might be nice, but i don't know if it's too much work. I can't use paypal for stupid and complicated reasons, and i don't think i'm alone on that. Anyone know how to set-up a non-paypal "tip jar"? Amazon payments--you'll see their button on some blogs and sites, and it allows you to seamlessly use a credit card you have listed on Amazon to pay, without the site ever seeing your information. It's really cool. PLUS: You can list all the books you recommend with links to Amazon, after setting that up with them, and if people click through and BUY them, you get a small percentage per book. So if you have a whole web site, you can create your own little bookstore, in effect.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on May 18, 2009 12:19:05 GMT -5
Tapati ~ you're back! How was your trip? Hope you had a nice, relaxing time.
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Post by tapati on May 18, 2009 12:19:06 GMT -5
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Post by tapati on May 18, 2009 12:36:41 GMT -5
Tapati ~ you're back! How was your trip? Hope you had a nice, relaxing time. Thanks, it was fun but I got sick and am recuperating. Amtrak has some help for disabled and chronically ill people but their "redcaps" who are supposed to help you with luggage for a gratuity seem to be a myth. I travel with a CPAP for sleep apnea, and mine is an older, heavy model. I had to carry it a long way to the train along with my other two carry-ons, also heavy, on a sore and infected foot. I tried to take a slow, deep breath at one point and choked on train exhaust! Ack! But the ride itself was great and there were some really cool ladies in the same car, the handicapped section, and we bonded and chatted all day. It was kind of like being here. I posted the pictures here: tapatim.multiply.com/photos/album/47/Grandma_Tapatis_Awesome_VisitI haven't captioned them there yet, but the cast of characters (besides me) consists of my daughter Ramya, who turned 30 on mother's day, my grandsons Jonathan (7, nearly 8) and Valente (5), and my new granddaughter Zaman Athena, 1 1/2 months old. I cooked a huge Indian feast for my daughter's birthday. I was so tired but everyone loved it. The boys had been very naughty just before I arrived, and were kind of on house arrest (they ran away to the park while my daughter was asleep and were brought back by the police at ten p.m.). So they were watching a lot of cartoons. I am amazed at some of the seriously twisted cartoons there are! Plus even the oldies have some really dark material--saw an episode of Tom and Jerry with a baby duckling who wanted to kill him or herself for being ugly and spent the whole episode trying to be eaten. Huh? With teen suicide rates do we really need to plant this suggestion? I remember seeing it when I was young and being horrified. I felt pressured (by myself) to do more than I am really able to do--and then frustrated that I couldn't. I will just have to go more often and maybe for shorter periods to conserve my energy better. I'd like to see Zaman at 4-5 months, a cute and more interactive age.
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Post by suzannedeaz on May 26, 2009 17:38:02 GMT -5
" Re: Future growth « Result #2 on May 13, 2009, 5:20pm » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi All, Re: the comment rule thing: whilst in theory I support it, I think too it's really important not to punish people for going off topic (if it's part of the natural lay of conversation: a discussion about fundamentalist clothing leading to a topic like body image for eg). I know at twop, where there is a specific Duggar board, people are banned suspended etc, for going anywhere near off topic: and some people understandably got quite upset about that (in that case, instead of talking about the show, they were discussing the belief system/lifestyle choices of the Duggars). As for trolls, I just don't like them: I come here to have a healthy debate, in a nonconfrontational manner." I got kicked off that board years ago as I defended the Duggars. There was so much snark on that board that I would feel a need to defend them not knowing that what they wanted was "snark". I just now read those boards and not reply. I found another board that does not have that much snark about the Duggars and post there: duggarswithoutpity.blogspot.com/I included in my quote something about trolls. I noted in some of my reading on either this forum or the other forum that Vicky has available someone was posting "troll alert". I have to say that almost wanted me to stop coming to the boards. I hate it when a newbee comes and someone yells out "troll alert". Unless the newbee comes there to blast blantantly I see no need for troll. How do you think one finds these boards? I find new boards all of the time by trolling, that is surfing the web looking for new forums. I just feel no need to say "troll alert". I guess the reason I feel this way is many times when I come to a new forum and join in the conversations I am treated like an "outsider". I know that most of the other posters were at one time an outsider so why should they all be a clique and treat any newbee as a troll or an outsider. Some boards were almost impossible to join and from those experiences I do not like it when some on writes "troll" alert. It gives me the impression that the board is extremely "con trolled" Interesting to see the word "troll" in the middle of the word controlled. When someone says "controll alert" it gives me the impression that the party who posts that wants to controll the board by having others note that this person is a newbee or may differ in opinions or whatever thus warning them not to respond do those posts after all they have a saying "do not feed" the trolls. I hope this board really is not that controlling after all that is the theme of many of your stories, suffering from the controll of others.
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Post by suzannedeaz on May 26, 2009 17:48:43 GMT -5
[quote author=admin board It would really be nice to get some more publicity too. I've been thinking of a way to capitalize on all the publicity which the Duggars (18 and Counting) are receiving ~ they are getting fairly favorable press and as such, they're very much role models for the quiverfull movement (even though they deny being part of the "quiverull movement.") I used to seriously idolize Michelle Duggar ~ and I'm thinking that maybe it would be possible to position myself as something like: former Michelle Duggar devotee is now an open critic of the large, biblical-family "vision." or something like that ~ not that I want to personally attack Michelle Duggar ~ but I definitely want to come out strongly against the whole qf/p vision ~ the belief system and lifestyle which underlies the Duggar family dynamic. [/quote] I always thought that the Duggars claimed to be part of the quiverfull movement. Where did you hear they are not part of it? I also know they are followers of Bill Gothard and uses his materials for homeschooling. I was wondering if any on this forum were part of groups that followed Bill Gothard. I ask cause I had a bad personal expericne which I have shared twice about him. I was part of a forum a few years ago with former Bill Gothard people. It was a very intesting board. I no longer go there and do not remember the link or the name.
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