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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Jun 3, 2010 8:20:55 GMT -5
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Post by km on Jun 3, 2010 8:47:54 GMT -5
Oh, wow... I'm so sorry for everything you've been through. I'm really looking forward to reading the rest of your story. You have such a vivid way of writing.
Was your family affiliated with Charity Ministries by any chance? I ask because of the use of "remnant" terminology, which I know extends beyond Charity but is also kind of their thing.
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Post by hopewell on Jun 3, 2010 9:19:50 GMT -5
I am so sad you went thru this--not at all what homeschooling should be. It should be a liberating and fun journey of self-discovery. Too many people just want to grow Militant Extremists! It's good to see it backfire, I just which the kids didn't have to endure mind control, physical, mental and sexual abuse along the way.
As a on-again, off-again [by mutual agreement] homeschool Mom, I hate to see kids made miserable by the experience. My own daughter had a great year at home for 7th grade, but she was too lonely and too isolate where we lived and I did not mind sending her back to school
I look forward to your book.
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Post by chbernat on Jun 3, 2010 10:00:17 GMT -5
Km~ thanks for your sweet words and encouragement on my writing. Made my day! :)
And hopewell, I agree. It should be a mutual thing. The difference between you and my mother however is that at the end of the day you cared more for your daughter's emotional/social/physical well-being than about being right. And fundamentalists generally (nearly always) care more about being morally right and superior than putting concern and stock in a child's welfare and overall happiness.
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Post by humbletigger on Jun 3, 2010 10:03:15 GMT -5
Yay! Chandra's story is coming to light. I have been wanting to know more ever since discovering your blog Dispelled Daughters. This is shadowspring, by the way. As a home school mom, I do take exception with this statement: That may very well be true about the vast majority of Movement home schooled children. But homeschooling is not the invention of the Movement, though they have exploited our home school freedoms for their own agenda flawlessly. Read this article, published in 1991, for a historical overveiw of how this happened: www.homeedmag.com/closerlook/355/homeschooling-freedoms-at-risk/Of course it makes perfect sense that you never met an unschooler, pagan, public school refugee, or secular home school family. Families like yours shunned anyone who was not "like-minded". While your mom was sitting in her robe obsessing over her religion, we were reading Holt, Gatto, Shaffer, and others. While your mom used keeping you out of school to hide you away from society, we were using home school freedom to explore the big wide world and give our children freedom and support. To get an understanding of the other side, you might want to read The Teenage Liberation Handbook by Grace Llwellyn. I love home schooling and so do my teens. My daughter is excelling at state university. My son plans to dual-enroll at community college. Butfor all that, I would still welcome stricter regulations if they would protect even one little girl from suffering the isolation and control you suffered! I personally think all high school students should get to choose to stop home schooling if they want. Interestingly enough, my own daughter disagrees. She thinks that it would have been disastrous for her, as angry as she was at the time. But I disagree. If she has turned out not to like it, she could have returned to home school. And if she "fell in with the wrong crowd" then maybe we would have faced our family issues earlier. I think freedom is always a good thing, personally. The "safety" of tyranny is what I fear and loathe!
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Post by chbernat on Jun 3, 2010 10:03:48 GMT -5
KM~ no, my parents were not a part of the Charity Ministries, in fact that is something new to me.
I believe that The Movement is pervasive and that these beliefs are far-reaching and go beyond the walls of any one particular group, organization or system. Its a cult, and the beliefs that Movement homeschoolers hold have an eerily universal bond and cohesive creed and dogma to them.
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Post by chbernat on Jun 3, 2010 10:10:54 GMT -5
SHADOWSPRING! Hello!!
You know that we disagree on symantics here, mostly due to the fact that you are a parent, and I am a child in this movement.
Let me differentiate.
I would not consider YOU, nor others such as yourself, to be "Movement" homeschoolers. The main most telling reason for this is because you allowed freedom of choice with your children, you devoted yourself to ensuring that they had an EDUCATION (not promoting religious dogmatism), and you were willing to LISTEN and HEAR the needs of your children esp. as they aged. Also, you do not fear more oversight and regulations.
Movement homeschoolers differ on all these points. It is the parents way or the highway, they do it for religious reasons (only), no choice if offered to their children in their education (unless you think that offering them a choice in what book to read is a choice), and they are not interested in the emotional well-being of their children. Rather, they are more interested in their own needs to control them than anything else. Blessings!!!
PS~ you my dear, are in the minority. Being involved in the movement for years and knowing many, many influencial people in the movement, you are most definitely the minority. But wait till my book comes out, because then you will better grasp my definition of neglect and the varying degrees of it within Movement homeschooling families.
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mags
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Post by mags on Jun 3, 2010 10:15:48 GMT -5
This is the post that finally got me to take the time to register and comment on here. I learned about Vyckie from the Quiverful Secret Lives of Women show. I was very interested in hearing her story. I am a Christian homeschooling mom of five kids. I am raising my kids in a conservative, sheltered environment. I am also teaching them to think for themselves and to find God's will for their own lives, being fully aware that might not be the direction I would prefer for them. Some of my biggest concerns in my parenting are to not be a hypocrite and to have my children fully prepared to face adulthood. I am a first generation Christian and home schooler and I don't pretend to have all the answers. I know the good side and the bad side of homeschooling. I try hard to not become lost in an agenda and to not drink the Kool-Aid.
Before I comment on this post I want to be clear that I go between pitying Vyckie for the mess she got herself and her children in and being really angry that she was one of the leaders making money passing out the Kool-Aid (through her newsletter) and is now naming names to make money.
This post seems to be just one more person making money off naming names. I think she thinks it has to be an extreme story for her book to sell. I have to say, the first paragraph had me laughing, it was so overdone. I also got to laughing at the part about being left to die of pneumonia while her mother was off working for the movement. Even amongst the Kool-Aid drinkers, it is generally looked down upon to have one's child die from neglect.
The point she made about being poorly prepared for college might be accurate for this woman but, again, it is not typical. Why are colleges clamoring for homeschoolers? Why do they score higher on the SAT than public and private schooled kids? Who is to say she would not have been poorly prepared for college if she went to public school?
The part about her childhood being typical of most homeschoolers is what got my panties in a bunch. I know there are many people who don't care about the truth and prefer to think that is the case, but please! I have been in the homeschooling movement for 12 years and the great majority of mothers I have met are wearing themselves out trying to provide the best childhood possible for their children. Whether this story is true or not, it is not typical. I would be surprised if Vyckie would agree with her this is typical.
Even if this story is true (and honestly, this is the first story I've read on this blog that I think might be totally made-up, so I feel silly to put this much time responding to it), to imply it is typical of homeschoolers is just drinking the Kool-Aid of the other side.
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Post by km on Jun 3, 2010 10:25:39 GMT -5
Whoa... Mags, I don't think Vyckie is getting rich from this, not by any means. My sense from this is mostly that she's trying to make ends meat and provide responsibly for her children despite some serious medical problems that may limit her ability to work full time.
I used to be extremely cynical about entrepreneurial endeavors of all kinds--that is, until I was diagnosed with Lupus, found my promising academic career railroaded, and desperately needed to find a way of making money in which I could control my own hours and work from home. I think it's terribly cruel to shame people who are trying to find creative ways of providing for themselves and for their families because they are economically marginalized.
Per Chandra's post: I mean, I really enjoyed it. I do think she'll have to do some fact-checking before publishing a book, but I think it's awesome that she wants to pursue something like this. When I posted that the majority of homeschoolers are QF fundamentalists on a thread a long time ago, someone quickly schooled me with some statistics showing that I was wrong. I think the QF people are probably the most vocal contingent of US homeschoolers, but the statistics I was shown suggested that they weren't the majority (I think about 20%... Now I can't remember where to find that statistic. Anyone else know?).
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Post by chbernat on Jun 3, 2010 10:26:16 GMT -5
Your post deserves no reply and its apparent that I struck a cord with you.
If you don't believe me, well. That's your problem. Perhaps you should speak with my innumerable counselors, doctors, and psychiatrists who can validate my every claim.
And one day in the near future, when your news station brings to you that this same little girl has filed a lawsuit against her parents for educational neglect, and runs for office to take away your rights to abuse your children, then we'll talk. In the meantime, if you can't say something supportive or halfway intelligent on here, don't say anything at all.
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Post by km on Jun 3, 2010 10:33:24 GMT -5
Your post deserves no reply and its apparent that I struck a cord with you. If you don't believe me, well. That's your problem. Perhaps you should speak with my innumerable counselors, doctors, and psychiatrists who can validate my every claim. And one day in the near future, when your news station brings to you that this same little girl has filed a lawsuit against her parents for educational neglect, and runs for office to take away your rights to abuse your children, then we'll talk. In the meantime, if you can't say something supportive or halfway intelligent on here, don't say anything at all. Uh... Wow. While I do think mags is totally out of line and am kinda distrustful based on the relatively naive picture I think she provides of the QF homeschooling movement... I don't feel I know enough about her to accuse her of child abuse right now. I mean, she does tell us that she explicitly doesn't participate in many of the abuses we associate with QF. ETA: Chandra, I'm not entirely sure whether or not you mean to equate all homeschooling with child abuse. I saw from your blog that your goal is to testify before Congress to make homeschooling illegal. While I absolutely support the idea of outlawing the kind of homeschooling that you and many others here experienced, I would also say... There are also a lot of people on this forum who homeschool their children in ways not tantamount to child abuse. I hope we can all tread carefully with this issue since it's so personal to everyone here.
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Post by nikita on Jun 3, 2010 10:36:42 GMT -5
Chandra - you aren't helping your case by this response to Mags. I don't agree with Mags re Vyckie but I too was really put off by your style of writing, which caused me to question the validity of your story. And I am not a homeschool anything at all.
If what you are saying and reporting is factually true then it would be a good idea to edit yourself severely. Your presentation is problematic. And saying it's true, just ask my psychiatrist is not the ringing endorsement it may appear to you to be.
All I'm saying is if you expect to be believed then rein yourself in some. The more purple prose you use the less believable the narrative becomes.
I don't think being non-critically supportive is one of the criteria for being able to post a response to an article here.
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Post by margybargy on Jun 3, 2010 10:37:08 GMT -5
Yes. This certainly hit a nerve with Mags. I wonder why she couldn't compose a reasonable and civil reply like the other homeschooling moms on this thread.
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Post by rosiegirl on Jun 3, 2010 10:38:53 GMT -5
Mags- While you might be in the minority of parents who educate their children properly, the very real truth is that most homeschooled children are disadvantaged.
Disadvantaged socially, and educationally. Also, where are you getting the information that colleges are clamoring for more homeschooled students? Homeschool organizations which are biased? Furthermore, I myself am a homeschool student, and I was fought at every turn to get into college, on the basis that I had neither a traditional highschool degree, nor a GED. Homeschool parents always like to paint a pretty picture that they're doing everything right, when most of the time, I've noticed they're doing exactly what they claim not to be.
Also, since you are speaking for yourself, no one can know the truth of your childrens educational results.
It seems to be like a cord has been struck.
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Post by chbernat on Jun 3, 2010 10:41:29 GMT -5
My experience is that people of this nature who are clearly whacked out and accusing truth sayers of being "Kool-aid" drinkers, generally are involved in some form of child neglect. (which, in medical terms, is child abuse). But perhaps I spoke out of anger, which I am quite certain I did. So sorry to have ruffled feathers, but I don't take kindly to someone telling me, who doesn't know me, that my story is falsified.
God uses the extreme among us to bring about His good will and purpose. I have known for as I can remember that this was my purpose: to share my story for victims in this movement. I don't share for the parents, but for the children who are hurting. And yes, its extreme. And yes, I have checked my facts. And yes, its hard to believe. But it doesn't make it any less TRUE. And if I have to take a few dirty hits and low-blows from ignorant people like this Mags character, well then so be it. I will gladly do it if it means that I can keep just ONE family from going down this path, or help one victim who doesn't understand why the things that happened to her did. I rest my case.
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Post by chbernat on Jun 3, 2010 10:48:59 GMT -5
"This same little girl" is referring myself, the author. And no one else.
Just the fact that lawyers are involved in this case at this point is fact enough that my story is not only true, it can be validated.
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Post by rosiegirl on Jun 3, 2010 10:49:05 GMT -5
I personally agree that homeschooling should be illegal.
There is simply too much wiggle room for abuse, and so many people fall through the cracks under the guise of "religious freedom."
Religious freedom should never be used to condone child abuse.
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Post by jadehawk on Jun 3, 2010 10:49:48 GMT -5
wow, you've gone through some seriously horrible things, chandra... I'm looking forward to reading the rest of your story (though, I have to agree that the purple prose is distracting; the cold, hard, truth is horrifying all by itself and doesn't need embellishments)
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Post by km on Jun 3, 2010 10:49:49 GMT -5
Mags- While you might be in the minority of parents who educate their children properly, the very real truth is that most homeschooled children are disadvantaged. Disadvantaged socially, and educationally. Also, where are you getting the information that colleges are clamoring for more homeschooled students? Homeschool organizations which are biased? Furthermore, I myself am a homeschool student, and I was fought at every turn to get into college, on the basis that I had neither a traditional highschool degree, nor a GED. Homeschool parents always like to paint a pretty picture that they're doing everything right, when most of the time, I've noticed they're doing exactly what they claim not to be. Also, since you are speaking for yourself, no one can know the truth of your childrens educational results. It seems to be like a cord has been struck. Really? See, I have two MA degrees... One in Political Science and the other in Philosophy. I have taught undergraduate students in both fields at elite universities--and tutored many students outside my areas of experties. I have a pretty solid background in education. I feel pretty certain that, if I ever had children, I'd be qualified to homeschool them while also providing enough social exposure that they didn't feel isolated. I have the skills and the knowledge of community resources to do it. I probably won't because I suspect I will always lack the energy (due to the illness that I brought up here). But I really really really wish we could refrain from making generalizing statements here about the nature of homeschooling. I simply don't think it's possible to generalize. I would also note, as a friend to many people who are on the autism spectrum, that I know that public schooling is not often equipped to educate these children in humane ways (In very severe cases of autism, it's not uncommon for educators to "restrain" children in ways that are extremely brutal and that constitute child abuse.). Sometimes homeshooling really is the most humane option for children with disabilities. I completely understand that many people here have been traumatized in homeschooling homes, but I honestly don't think it's ever possible to generalize our experiences in the way that I see some doing.
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Post by nikita on Jun 3, 2010 10:50:36 GMT -5
Yes, Mags has some issues here. Clearly. But also clearly so does Chandra. That was not a reasonable response to Mags criticism IMHO. I don't have any axes to grind here, no skin in the home schooling game. I love to hear people's stories of their experiences in all of their variety. This is the only one I've read on this site that didn't strike a chord at all with me, it came off very manipulative and contrived. It may well be that it is true. I don't know her. But the presentation doesn't come off true.
So that's a problem for me.
Mags has other issues and I will not speak to those. I will say, though, that meeting criticism with 'it must've struck a chord then' is way too easy a response, it requires no self-examination at all, just points to the criticizer as obviously being the one with the problem.
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mags
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Post by mags on Jun 3, 2010 10:53:18 GMT -5
It does seem to me that people who first drank the Kool-Aid of one extreme will, when they find it isn't working for them, just go drink the Kool-Aid of the other side.
It doesn't bother me in the least you would accuse me of child abuse. That's what people without facts do. How about throw in homophobe and racist, just for good measure? Again, you make me laugh.
I tried. I give up. Don't waste your time replying. I'm unsubbing.
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Post by km on Jun 3, 2010 10:58:22 GMT -5
I personally agree that homeschooling should be illegal. There is simply too much wiggle room for abuse, and so many people fall through the cracks under the guise of "religious freedom." Religious freedom should never be used to condone child abuse. Well, no, and if I were to homeschool these hypothetical children whom I probably will never have, I wouldn't be doing it for religious reasons at all. Most likely, I'd do it because I had a disabled child who could not be humanely accommodated in a public school. Possibly also if I had a child whom I needed to protect from very bad bullying. Secondarily, I'd consider it if I lived in an area in which the quality of public education was low. As a highly educated person who has experience in education and teaching, I'm quite convinced that I could do it well. And I think homeschooling families should face a lot more oversight, for what it's worth. ETA: I didn't mean to turn this into a debate about whether or not homeschooling should be illegal, fwiw. I thought that may be the basis on which Chandra was accusing mags of abuse, and I wanted to know if that's what was happening. In any case, I do think there is some...problematic argumentation happening between both mags and Chandra. I'm not usually one to shout, "Can't we all just get along???" But I do hope we can be kinder to each other here--you know, that whole presumption of good will thing that Vyckie's always bringing up. I'll make myself absent from this thread for a while.
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Post by humbletigger on Jun 3, 2010 11:05:42 GMT -5
Chandra is angry, and that comes through loud and clear in her prose.
But anger is no sin, and from everything I have gleaned from my correspondence with Chandra, her anger is justified.
She was hurt deeply by her mother's religion and the way her mother used home schooling to isolate and dominate her. Plus this is the first I have read about sexual abuse. I am angry for her.
On the other hand, home schooling was around before the Movement, though if you read the link I provided, you will see that Movement home schoolers did a grand job of taking over every where they could. It sounds like Chandra's parents were part of that ursurption of home schooling by religious fanatics.
They are not the majority of home schoolers, but they are a sizable minority. And as a sizable minority, they do present themselves as the sum total of all home schooling. They monopolize home school conventions and most support groups. It is understandable that she would identify the Movement as bigger than it is, because it controls the market out of proportion to its numbers.
I believe that is changing however. It is a change I welcome. And it is a change that Chandra's experience demands must happen.
If home schooling is to survive (and I hope it does!) then it must distance itself from religious fanaticism.
ps My experience with college admissions: the private liberal arts college loved home schoolers- but no Movement home schoolers would apply there. The state university made no comment one way or the other, but then my applicant had already completed a year at the private liberal arts college.
The ROTC loved home schoolers, but they loved my daughter as an applicant. Women in the military is hardly a Movement value.
On the other hand, a friend who is a retired professor at Wake Forest said that her experience was that home schoolers were very weak in science and history and believed religious dogmas were real science and honest history. She had a negative impression of home schooling.
So there you have it: it is a mixed bag of responses in my experience.
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Post by chbernat on Jun 3, 2010 11:07:28 GMT -5
KM~
Btw, I appreciate the feedback on my writing style. I am always open to improvement.
Please don't say, without having children of your own, that a child with special needs could not be accomodated in a humane way in a public school setting. Of course, its your opinion, but I hope that you will reconsider.
I have three little boys. Two of whom are special needs children who have Aspergers. After trying to homeschool my eldest son for 4 months I came to the conclusion that I was actually doing him a disservice. I am not supermom, and knew that I was not capable of giving two special needs boys what they needed, and I believe no mother can truly do that ALL BY HERSELF. There is beauty in helping others and letting others help you (carrying one another's burdens). I enrolled him in our local public school and what he has done there is amazing. He has therapists that work directly with him one-on-one and give the therapy that he needs (like swinging, compressions, hand-writing help, occupational, speech, and physical therapies). To have kept him at home, sheltered in a bubble, would not have helped him at all. In fact, it would have harmed him. He would not have been allowed the practice of socializing and because of our economic income level, would have not had access to the treasure trove of resources available in the public school system. Just a little food for thought.
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Post by km on Jun 3, 2010 11:09:35 GMT -5
Well, okay, but before I go, I want to note that I think humbletigger is very on-point here in just about every way, but my karma points are used up for the hour... So, yeah. See you all later.
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