valsa
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Posts: 46
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Post by valsa on Jun 6, 2010 14:47:39 GMT -5
Then it’d be a moot point, wouldn’t it?
I’m not quite sure if you’re being purposely obtuse or not. Teachers are around children several hours every day. That gives them the opportunity to observe and interact with children a great deal, which makes spotting the warning signs of abuse easier.
You’re drawing a false conclusion. The ratio of home schooled children to all children is fairly small, so the majority of children in the foster care system are going to be children who are non-home schooled. And, given the statistic I just gave you about teachers and reporting, the fact that home schooled children do not have that group of mandatory reporters to look out for them just means that more home schooled children are falling through the cracks and not being protected from abuse, not that they aren’t experiencing it.
There’s absolutely no proof that the decision to home school or not home school makes a person more or less likely to abuse. It’s very likely that rates of child abuse are the same between home schooling families and non-home schooling families. However, home schooled children are lacking the built-in system of “oversight” that public/private schooled children have just by being in public/private school. The fact that you’ve never experienced a home schooled child in foster care only serves to back that up. Or do you actually think that the decision to home school, by itself, means a person is less likely to be an abuser?
The same way abuse is identified in any other child. Google “signs of child abuse”, that might help you.
First of all, as I mentioned above, I don’t think the problem of abuse among home schooling families is any more prevalent than in non-home schooling families. However, I think periodic checks would be a good idea to make up for the fact that home schooled children aren’t exposed to the very people who are most likely to notice and report if they are being abused.
Secondly, I asked you that question independent of the rest of this conversation, not to prove some kind of point. I’m curious about what’d you do because I honestly cannot understand your point-of-view at all. I’ll break down my questions farther, to make it clearer what I’m curious about.
I already asked this, but I’ll repeat it- Do you think that the decision to home school, by itself, means a person is less likely to be an abuser?
If not, do you agree that there is abuse in home schooling families, probably on par with the rate of abuse in non-home school families?
What, if anything, do you think should be done to protect home schooled children since they don’t have any contact with the people statistically most likely to spot on-going abuse and report it? Or do you think it’s enough for families and communities to police themselves in this matter?
While I agree that the community always needs to look out for possible abuse, the average lay-person doesn’t necessarily know what the signs of abuse look like (and it’s unlikely that an abusive parent will haul-off and hit a child in public) They should not be the only ones looking out for the child. Not to mention that most people in the community probably don’t see the child enough to be able to spot any abuse- neighbors may not be close enough or interested enough, grocers see the child for a few minutes each week (if that), fellow church members may share the abusive parents’ idea of “discipline”, abusive parents are likely to avoid interaction with the police, etc.
Again, I agree. But I do think that there should be someone doing it in an official capacity, which is lacking with home schooling families.
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Post by Sierra on Jun 6, 2010 15:02:25 GMT -5
CPS is an overburdened and underfunded system. I don't believe that regular checks on homeschooling families, undertaken without suspicion of abuse, would return results for the following reasons:
1. Abusers will find it even easier to conceal abuse from a social worker who visits for, say, an hour once a year than they do to conceal it from neighbors, grocers, or extended family members. Abusers are often charming people to outsiders and their kids are taught to be accessories to the family image. Entering the home does not remove the facade.
2. Routine checks easily become formalities. The sheer number of false calls will be wearying and may cause the worker to expect normalcy over abuse (because, frankly, most checks will turn up nothing) and miss the signs.
3. Monitoring homeschooling families rigorously enough to provide ample opportunity for a CPS worker to observe the signs of abuse will be not only a gross intrusion on a family's privacy (there is a stigma attached to having CPS constantly knocking on your door for a reason) but will also take away valuable resources from reported cases of abuse. This is anecdotal, but I knew a girl in college who was physically abused. The abuse was reported, and social workers came to check on the family multiple times. She was never removed from the home. It only got worse until she left as an adult. CPS can barely do the job it currently has to do. Let's not make it even harder for them to pursue the actual leads they have.
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Post by freefromtyranny on Jun 6, 2010 16:26:03 GMT -5
And what if, after this research they (whoever they are that have the money and time to chase shadows) determine that the problem of abuse in homeschool families is not large enough to start a far reaching program of oversight specifically for homeschoolers? Homeschooling has been gaining in popularity since the 80's. There are second generation homeschoolers out there, now. If abuse were rampant in the homeschool community you don't think we would have heard about it? Not sure how you think this "research" will be done. I'm telling you, there is not some big conspiracy in the homeschool community to abuse kids and hide it. And you aren't drawing false conclusions? How did you come to the conclusion that MORE homeschooled kids are falling through the cracks? You mean per capita homeschooled kids are less likely to have abuse discovered? Who told you that? Do you know any homeschool families? Or are you just encouraging fear of the unknown/anything different the same way the fundies do? Every homeschool family I know allow the children to have access to untold numbers of people. Quite possibly. That was not my question. Potentially, statistically and circumstantially, YES. I certainly don't think it makes anyone MORE likely to abuse. It is possible, not probable, and even if it were the case the number of children that are taken into care for abuse is tiny compared to how many children there are in the nation. And homeschoolers make up a tiny percentage of the population so it really is not a cause that should make national headlines. I think statistically the problem of abuse in homeschooled families is so small that there are other things we should focus legislative energy on. Like drug abuse. Wow. Who, exactly, ARE you referring to? That is alot of speculation. Or you assume it is lacking.
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Post by dorayp on Jun 6, 2010 17:12:44 GMT -5
I think when we have experienced something horrible in our lives, we tend to "throw the baby out with the bathwater," and deem everything that person or organization did as "evil," and wrong. The reality is, any action can be used to control, abuse or hurt. There were plenty of things in my 20's I swore I would never do or say because my parents did them, and yet, they weren't wrong about everything. Just a lot of things. What I find when I encounter people who think the majority of homeschoolers are doing their kids wrong is, they have never seen or been exposed to the other groups. Probably because they were homeschooled within the patriarchal movement. I'm saying all this to point out, there is a HUGE group of secular homeschoolers that homeschool for many reasons other than religion. As a matter of fact, if you do a google search, you'll find magazines, forums and articles discussing them. I know many who do not associate with a church or religious group, but are still homeschoolers for life. They want their children to have a better academic road than the local community has to offer, and they are able to provide it at home. Would those of us like that welcome more regulation, not really. But that's simply because it feels like persecution. If a public schooled kid cannot read, no one blames the parents. Why not? Where there has been regulation, there has been a lot of "guilty until proven innocent." The reality is, the vast majority of homeschoolers DO keep records, we are TERRIFIED of failing our children academically, and we are more guilty of overdoing their education than underdoing it. I would encourage everyone to look into the other side of the homeschooling movement. The one that started us homeschooling. I had a daughter that could read and was very active, but no schools would take her because of the "age cutoff." She was academically superior in all things Language Arts, but struggled in Math. She did so well at home, that all the teachers I ever talked to agreed they would not know what to do with her or where to place her in a PS setting. She happens to be at an age now where her peers have caught up with her, and she's caught up with them. In between all this, there was a period of 2-3 years where we chose a church in the Patriarchal movement. We did not understand that at the time, and we are just now (3 years later) finding healing and resolution. We have had to go through each piece of the movement and dissect it, evaluate it, and decide if it now fits with our lives and beliefs. There are some things I want nothing to do with, but I have been able to look at friends and understand why they choose to continue down that path. There are other things that I've joyfully been able to re-embrace, knowing that one movement (patriarchal) does not own every organization it supports. Homeschooling is one of them. So, I would encourage anyone who wants to see the other side, to google, and research homeschooling from a different point of view. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. Blessings! Dorinda Whose daughter did decide to do another year at home, but helped me pick out curriculum, and the activities we will be involved in.
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Post by usotsuki on Jun 6, 2010 17:24:31 GMT -5
Homeschooling is probably only an *issue* when coupled with other isolating measures, such that the children are kept shut away from the world at all times. I suspect this only happens in QF and similarly hyper-zealous religious sects.
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Post by freefromtyranny on Jun 6, 2010 18:22:27 GMT -5
Homeschooling is probably only an *issue* when coupled with other isolating measures, such that the children are kept shut away from the world at all times. I suspect this only happens in QF and similarly hyper-zealous religious sects. Then homeschooling is still not the *issue*. Isolation is.
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Post by usotsuki on Jun 6, 2010 18:28:06 GMT -5
Homeschooling is probably only an *issue* when coupled with other isolating measures, such that the children are kept shut away from the world at all times. I suspect this only happens in QF and similarly hyper-zealous religious sects. Then homeschooling is still not the *issue*. Isolation is. OK, agreed. But if they're that isolated from reality, any abuse that goes on, nobody will ever know.
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Post by egalgirl on Jun 6, 2010 18:45:41 GMT -5
One category of mandatory reporter missing: pastors. As a licensed pastor, I am required by law to report any abuse or suspicion of abuse, and I [and most pastors I know!] don't give a flying you-know-what who the kids' parents are or what kind of church politics/consequences are involved. The lives of kids are way too important to mess around with! Granted, I know that some of the real hard-core homeschoolers home-church...I'm not sure what could be done in those cases... Most of the homeschoolers who abuse their kids probably belong to churches that support that abuse, unless they home-church. There are plenty of churches and Christian groups that advocate blatantly physically abusive child-rearing practices, as has been discussed elsewhere on this site. I have seen the discussions on this site regarding Michael Pearl and his supporters, and let me assure you that I, for one, am very much against his methods. I also belong to a church with a very large number of homeschoolers. I cannot speak for anyone else; only myself, and I would definitely report anyone whom I suspect of using Pearl's [or any other similar "techniques" of child discipline], or whose child came to me and told me that their parent was employing any of these methods of discipline. Just an FYI - there are quite a few churches that are completely overwhelmed and not sure what to do with the hardcore QF/patriarchal crowd. My boss [senior pastor] and I have had many a discussion along these lines...I mean, we want to be welcoming to everyone, but at the same time, don't want these people influencing everyone else in the place, either. For someone in my position, it's a fine line.... But my stance on abuse of ANY kind is zero tolerance!!!
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Post by rosa on Jun 6, 2010 23:02:30 GMT -5
Freefromtyranny, this is a thread about an article TELLING ABOUT AN ABUSED HOMESCHOOLED CHILD. We already talked about the Schatzes. I don't even know that many homeschooling families, and I've met homeschooled kids who were abused. PrincessJo posts on these boards. How many individual cases does it take before it counts as "hearing about it?"
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Post by princessjo1988 on Jun 7, 2010 9:22:48 GMT -5
Hi All, After doing some thinking, and reading other's comments on this blog, I had to blog about the homeschooling/regulation debate. Some of you won't agree. Some of you might. But remember as you read that my perspective is coloured by my experiences, and the experiences of the homeschoolers that surrounded me growing up. princessjo1988.blogspot.com/2010/06/homeschoolingmy-thoughts-my-experiences.htmlJo
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Post by freefromtyranny on Jun 7, 2010 11:13:00 GMT -5
Freefromtyranny, this is a thread about an article TELLING ABOUT AN ABUSED HOMESCHOOLED CHILD. We already talked about the Schatzes. I don't even know that many homeschooling families, and I've met homeschooled kids who were abused. PrincessJo posts on these boards. How many individual cases does it take before it counts as "hearing about it?" I don't now how else to say that "oversight" for homeschoolers with the intent of preventing/stopping abuse is futile. I'll try to keep it really simple. IT WON'T WORK. If, after reading this entire thread, you don't get it then I don't know what else to say. Chase your shadows, jump up and down and yell about it, say you are going to create laws for this or that but the truth is the things you are proposing are not based in reality. Have fun storming the castle.
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Post by francescateresa on Jun 7, 2010 23:08:16 GMT -5
Chandra, Hugs to you! Thank you for telling your story! I'm about the same age as you, and I remember old family friends who became distant as they traveled down paths similar to that of you family's Welcome back ( a bit belated ) It's not any of my business, but I think that you are handling your sons' education well. -- About the ensuing maelstrom of debate over homeschooling...I personally have nothing to offer, ...it's a tough subject and I don't have any answers or a valid perspective...but many who post here might find this blog interesting. Someone else from the NLQ posting group (I've forgotten who) posted this link long ago, and I find the blog below to be interesting and well written. Homeschooling Research Notes Milton Gaither gaither.wordpress.com/about/
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