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Post by mickee on Jun 14, 2010 21:20:14 GMT -5
This topic among so many other topics on this board leave me with so many questions. So, I have a question or a scenario along this subject line. Lets say a woman among these quiverfull groups has an ectopic pregnancy and dies in the midst of not receiving medical help. She already has five children, and they are being homeschooled. Who steps in to take over the role of the mother? I am assuming the father has to go to work. Do other quiverfull mothers step in and take those children into their home to continue the homeschooling and lifestyle, or does Vision Forum ministries and others like them provide assistance or help for those who are in need?
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torgo
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Post by torgo on Jun 14, 2010 21:55:47 GMT -5
Has anyone actually filed a challenge against VF's tax exempt status?
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Post by cherylannhannah on Jun 14, 2010 21:55:52 GMT -5
"Shall we bless a mother who kills her own child to save herself?" he asked. "Are we proud of such a woman? Shall we sing of her virtues? Perhaps we should just chalk-up her decision to feed her son to the sharks as 'an unfortunate, but necessary evil.' After all, she was just acting in self-defense. It was either the mother or the child. One would live and the other would die. Who could blame Mama for wanting to fight for her life, even if it meant that her son would be torn to pieces in the darkness of night?" [/i][/quote] I'm very pro-life but this line of reasoning makes me very uneasy. In a case where it is either the life of the mother vs the life of the unborn child, the default position seems to be to sacrifice the life of the woman as being of lesser value. This is coercion, not heroic self-sacrifice chosen by the mother. It appears to me that in the zeal to promote the value of life, they ironically end up devaluing someone's life.
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Post by cherylannhannah on Jun 14, 2010 22:01:46 GMT -5
This topic among so many other topics on this board leave me with so many questions. So, I have a question or a scenario along this subject line. Lets say a woman among these quiverfull groups has an ectopic pregnancy and dies in the midst of not receiving medical help. She already has five children, and they are being homeschooled. Who steps in to take over the role of the mother? I am assuming the father has to go to work. Do other quiverfull mothers step in and take those children into their home to continue the homeschooling and lifestyle, or does Vision Forum ministries and others like them provide assistance or help for those who are in need? I can tell you that the RPNA, which was the church group I was associated with for 12 years, would discipline any family that knowingly practiced bc. They also frowned upon families sending their children to public school or "unfaithful" Christian schools. The elders who imposed these rules were past childbearing age or were shooting blanks or something because none of them had children while the RPNA existed. Nevertheless, they didn't hesitate to tie burdens on families and then did not lift a finger to help them to carry the burdens. If a mother lost her life through pregnancy or giving birth, then that was suffering for the sake of Christ and she would be rewarded in the next life. Precedence was given to potential childbearing and trumped every other consideration. God desires mercy. Principles are to serve people not the other way around, IMHO.
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Post by anatheist on Jun 14, 2010 22:41:33 GMT -5
This topic among so many other topics on this board leave me with so many questions. So, I have a question or a scenario along this subject line. Lets say a woman among these quiverfull groups has an ectopic pregnancy and dies in the midst of not receiving medical help. She already has five children, and they are being homeschooled. Who steps in to take over the role of the mother? I am assuming the father has to go to work. Do other quiverfull mothers step in and take those children into their home to continue the homeschooling and lifestyle, or does Vision Forum ministries and others like them provide assistance or help for those who are in need? From what I've seen, the father will find a new wife ASAP. A young virgin is ideal, but a widow with children of her own is acceptable.
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Post by cindy on Jun 14, 2010 23:35:17 GMT -5
Has anyone actually filed a challenge against VF's tax exempt status? I have been contacted by various individuals over the years, and I have had had contact with four different individuals who have pursued this end because of the "questionable" business practices of Vision Forum. Two of those people actually contacted the FBI and were told that though it is not ethical to lie, it is not illegal. I know of at least one individual who pursued legal action, but he trusted Vision Forum to make things right. He believed that he was engaging in a "Christian mediation" that did not have any legal implications, but he was told that he could not bring an attorney with him. He signed papers that he thought were just a matter of Christian accountability, and it was, in fact, a legal mediation. He signed away all of his rights. Part of the mediation was a gag rule, and the man discussed his situation on line. Phillips and affiliates pursued legal action against this man. I last heard from his friends while awaiting a verdict on appeal which was expected to come out at this time last year. No one who knows him will confide in me about his situation now, so I assume that the appeal was denied. As things stood 18 months ago, the man was required to pay damages to Vision Forum affiliates (something that was part of the mediation) for violating that agreement that the man naively assumed was not a legal proceeding. I expect now that he lost the appeal and that Vision Forum affiliates seized his property in compensation for the damages that were awarded them (for damaging their public relations and for the man's violating the mediation). There are a whole handful of other people -- people who will not come forward because they are terrified of Phillips -- who claim that they were offered deals with Phillips who essentially requires them to sign away their legal rights to sue or don't really have a viable chance of getting a favorable result if they do enter into legal action. People are terrified that Phillips' profession and ties to powerful people in the Christian right will leave them with nothing if the come forward. Basically, those within these groups employ the help of Ken Sande's Peacemaker Ministries, and they make you "submit" to Christian leaders and essentially waive your rights. If you don't comply with them, they declare you non-Christian and then sue you. I personally know people who own little more than their toothbrush because Ken Sande's style of mediation worked to the advantage of Vision Forum and "friends" until the statue of limitations expired, leaving them without recourse. (Vision Forum affiliates turned on at least one of these people and sued them after they were declared apostate so that they could disregard I Corinthians 6 which says Christians should not sue other Christians.) So, yes, people have tried to challenge their tax-exempt status and they have pursued legal action against Vision Forum affiliates and "friends." I know them and I know their stories. (And for the record, they contacted me. I did not seek them out.)
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Post by cindy on Jun 14, 2010 23:59:40 GMT -5
I wonder if Samaritan Ministries receives federal funding as part of the Faith-Based Initiatives program? The people who operate Samaritan Ministries tend to follow Agrarian Economics and many hold to neo-confederate ideals concerning economics... That school of thought is strongly opposed to any government assistance of any kind under any circumstances, so I am certain that they receive no government funding whatsoever. I also understand that the management is well paid, and they really don't have any problems coming up with funds. They operate much like an HMO, negotiating low rates for services, and you must go to a preferred provider. They essentially operate like case managers and accountant contract specialists who work for HMOs and PPO insurance companies. And I think that it's interesting to note that I've been told by former church members who attended places with the management of Samaritan Ministries that none of them had experience in healthcare or healthcare administration. I could be wrong, but I believe Pittinger, the fellow in charge, used to hang drywall. It is either him or one of the other higher level managers at SM. When I investigated matters as best I could in 2008, they did not employ any healthcare personnel but did have a physician consultant that they could call upon. (Many insurance companies that administrate HMOs do use case managers who do not have medical training, so that should be said. But they do employ doctors, nurses and healthcare administrators as supervisors and managers, and they are held to industry standards. I've worked in all areas of this process as a nurse.)
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Post by nikita on Jun 15, 2010 0:11:34 GMT -5
I'd never heard of Peacemaker Ministries but when I went to their site I could swear I've heard of every one of the men leading that group (except Sande, oddly enough). I read their statement of faith which ended with number eight:
(8) in the spiritual unity of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ and his church.
It sounds so spiritual, so unifying, so loving. But that's the one where they believe that my life is their business. If I'm a Christian, then they have authority over my behavior and my life as a fellow member of the body of Christ. If I am not a Christian (in good standing) then my opinions are totally disregarded and I am of no importance to them.
Got it. I finally got it. That's why I've been so pissed off the last few days, because I finally get where they are coming from and where they think they are going. Frankly, it's terrifying. God help us all if they achieve real power. Imagine the lives they can trample over in the name of a God I barely recognize in their implacable doctrines. This extreme tubal pregnancy directive is a stark example of the kind of world these men wish to live in and force the rest of us to live in too.
I've spent thirty years rolling my eyes at secularist paranoia about the Christian Right and hidden agendas because I never dreamed anyone would branch outside of the things of the spirit into the affairs of the world like that. I didn't expect that they would try to make the world conform to their rigid doctrines but that is exactly what they are trying to do. And, learning a lesson from Westboro Baptist in Topeka, I suppose, they have stocked themselves with lawyers to shut the critics up and make people fear to speak against them.
I'm just really brassed off right now. Sorry for spewing my fury but it's just bubbling up in the face of all of this.
I feel betrayed, somehow. Yes, that's it. A sense of spiritual betrayal...
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Post by cindy on Jun 15, 2010 0:20:12 GMT -5
KM,
I wanted to reiterate your question specifically about Faith Based Initiative programs and summarize what I understand regarding how Samaritan Ministries can operate this way and remain unprotected. Knowing the insurance industry as a nurse, I was also sure that there would have to be some kind of standard of accountability.
(Note that I agreed to my husband's request to do no more case management because of how miserable it made me, even to do it part time. It is all about saving money and essentially denying care, making sure that you don't violate the guidelines. I only do chart review for compliance with standards as part of the government's NCQA program by doing HEDIS reviews. I think the regulated stuff is unethical, and I got into trouble all the time as a case manager because I approved too many services. So just imagine the effort I put into trying to deal with this from a standpoint of healthcare regulation.)
1. They do not receive any government assistance of any kind.
2. They are considered a ministry, so they are protected from outside standards as a religious organization.
(And it is America. You can pray to a potted plant if you want and not be discriminated against. You can believe whatever you want. I'll fight for your right to pray to a potted plant.)
3. The people who sign the contract to participate do waive many of their rights, and they are given informed consent about the way the system works.
(People place much faith and trust in Samaritan Ministries' Christian ethics, and they expect and anticipate that they will behave in what they understand to be Christian charity. But you are taking a chance.)
From what I understand and what I could find out through insurance agency contacts and from within healthcare, until they are challenged legally, there is not much that can be done. Again, people are not likely to sue because most Christians understand that it is against I Cor 6 to sue a fellow Believer. So if there has been anyone who had an issue with anything, the chances that they will challenge the contract and sue is minimal.
I believed that my best option to address this concern about Samaritan Ministries was to appeal to Pro-Life and Christian Medical Ethics groups to bring up the matter in Christian circles. But no one would touch it. They express that they are completely appalled, but they will not put their organizations at risk.
Apparently, Crisis Pregnancy does not apply to the crisis of a tubal pregnancy...
I did get two initial responses from someone of note in the Reformed Faith, but I am told that they are going to contact me and then failed to do so both times. I hope and think that this individual was sincere and was just too busy. Another Christian ethicist was just about to have is first baby who warned me that he would be busy, but I never heard back from him either. (They like to avoid pregnancy cases because they want to be seen as having a sole medical focus only. So I was not high priority.)
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Post by jadehawk on Jun 15, 2010 8:21:17 GMT -5
I wouldn't be so sure. While fanatical believers often don't "cheat", there's a lot of hypocrisy in the upper echelons of many "conservative" organizations, and often they feel exempt from the rules they make for themselves. A lot of wannabe libertarians accept federal aid under some bogus excuse or another, either out of simple, evil-minded hypocrisy, sometimes out of sheer cluelessness (kinda like the "keep government out of medicare" silliness, or vets railing against government-sponsored benefits)
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Post by jadehawk on Jun 15, 2010 8:24:56 GMT -5
and on topic of ectopic pregnancies: I've started discouraging women from accepting care at Catholic (and other blatantly conservative christian, but they're a bit rarer on the ground) hospitals, after the last round of "consciousness" bills passed which allowed medical providers to lie (they're allowed to withhold counseling on procedures they personally disapprove of), after hearing a handful of stories of women who had ectopic pregnancies, but were told merely that they had a "complicated" pregnancy that needed monitoring; in all cases the women survived, but only after harrowing, painful emergency treatments that endangered their lives later-on. None of the fetuses survived. The women could have totally been spared the ordeal if their doctors hadn't lied to them.
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maicde
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Post by maicde on Jun 15, 2010 8:56:23 GMT -5
. Regarding the "spanking" death of that little girl, I'm concerned that the logical fallacy of "argument from abuse" may be used to paint anyone who uses any form of corporeal punishment with the same brush. I would be very surprised to learn that Vision Forum, Samaritan Ministries, or the Pearls approved of what happened in that little girl's death. And just in case anyone is wondering, I may spank my younger children maybe once a year using my hand, so I'm not over the top with it. I prefer the "super nanny" approach and have also learned that the more self governed I am, the more inherent authority I carry so that it often only requires a look or a few words of caution to correct my kids now. Seriously? You would be surprised that the Pearls approved of what happened in that little girl's death? I don't know how that they would be surprised considering is is THEY who advocate and teach parents to hit their kid with plumber's line. I guess the parents of Lydia (who had the Pearl child torture books in their home AND plumber's line) got a little carried away, beating her to a pulp - literally. They also beat their other kids, but concentrated especially on little Lydia. Go to amazon.com and click on the Pearl "parenting books" (more like "How to Torture a Child" manuals) and read the comments. Most people are profoundly disturbed that this cr*p is passed off as "child rearing books." If you're not sure if plumber's line hurts, get some at your local hardware store and try it on yourself. Any parent who thinks that striking children, toddlers and babies with plumber's line, belts, little whips, etc. "doesn't hurt" needs to try it out on themselves first. And yes, all of the above "ministries" you mentioned are onboard for child beating. Oh, by the way, you're not supposed to use "your hand" to spank, because don't you know, "hands are for loving." (If you don't believe that, read the Pearl books).
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maicde
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Post by maicde on Jun 15, 2010 9:14:46 GMT -5
I'd never heard of Peacemaker Ministries but when I went to their site I could swear I've heard of every one of the men leading that group (except Sande, oddly enough). I read their statement of faith which ended with number eight: (8) in the spiritual unity of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ and his church. It sounds so spiritual, so unifying, so loving. But that's the one where they believe that my life is their business. If I'm a Christian, then they have authority over my behavior and my life as a fellow member of the body of Christ. If I am not a Christian (in good standing) then my opinions are totally disregarded and I am of no importance to them. Got it. I finally got it. That's why I've been so pissed off the last few days, because I finally get where they are coming from and where they think they are going. Frankly, it's terrifying. God help us all if they achieve real power. Imagine the lives they can trample over in the name of a God I barely recognize in their implacable doctrines. This extreme tubal pregnancy directive is a stark example of the kind of world these men wish to live in and force the rest of us to live in too. I've spent thirty years rolling my eyes at secularist paranoia about the Christian Right and hidden agendas because I never dreamed anyone would branch outside of the things of the spirit into the affairs of the world like that. I didn't expect that they would try to make the world conform to their rigid doctrines but that is exactly what they are trying to do. And, learning a lesson from Westboro Baptist in Topeka, I suppose, they have stocked themselves with lawyers to shut the critics up and make people fear to speak against them. I'm just really brassed off right now. Sorry for spewing my fury but it's just bubbling up in the face of all of this. I feel betrayed, somehow. Yes, that's it. A sense of spiritual betrayal... Yep, I feel the same way (spiritually betrayed). The truth of the matter is that these people are not content to simply live with their own convictions and beliefs; they have REAL plans to impose their convictions and beliefs on EVERYONE else. Too many people are not aware of what is going on and they simply vote for a political candidate because of one issue or two issues (pro-life, anti-gay marriage) and that just solves everything. The problem is that people are truly wolves in sheep clothing. They have much deeper agendas than they are letting on to the masses. I truly wish that people would open up their eyes before it is too late. The same people who rally against the Taliban and Islamic fundamentalism have no clue that the Christian fundamentalists of this country want to impose the same here in the U.S. - in the form of Dominionism and religious law. I will not hesitate to move to another country (and move our children with us) if this ever happens. People need to become aware of the deeper intentions and goals of this groups who wish to establish dominance over the entire country.
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Post by cherylannhannah on Jun 15, 2010 9:29:25 GMT -5
. Oh, by the way, you're not supposed to use "your hand" to spank, because don't you know, "hands are for loving." (If you don't believe that, read the Pearl books). The point I was trying to make is that not everyone (in fact not most) people who advocate corporeal punishment are going to take it to that extreme. An argument from abuse that would be similar is to ban all alcoholic consumption because some people won't control themselves and therefore become drunk. I believe in the limited and occasional use of corporeal punishment where it is merited, but I most certainly do NOT approve of people beating their children like they did in this story. In Canada corporeal punishment is not against the law; however that is interpreted by each provincial gov't's social workers in various ways. I've had social workers intervention in my home on several occasions now thanks to the abusive ways of my ex-husband. In BC, where I live, if I used any sort of implement, I could be charged with assault for using a weapon whereas a swat on the bum with my hand is not considered assault.
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maicde
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Post by maicde on Jun 15, 2010 9:30:48 GMT -5
Has anyone actually filed a challenge against VF's tax exempt status? I have been contacted by various individuals over the years, and I have had had contact with four different individuals who have pursued this end because of the "questionable" business practices of Vision Forum. Two of those people actually contacted the FBI and were told that though it is not ethical to lie, it is not illegal. I know of at least one individual who pursued legal action, but he trusted Vision Forum to make things right. He believed that he was engaging in a "Christian mediation" that did not have any legal implications, but he was told that he could not bring an attorney with him. He signed papers that he thought were just a matter of Christian accountability, and it was, in fact, a legal mediation. He signed away all of his rights. Part of the mediation was a gag rule, and the man discussed his situation on line. Phillips and affiliates pursued legal action against this man. I last heard from his friends while awaiting a verdict on appeal which was expected to come out at this time last year. No one who knows him will confide in me about his situation now, so I assume that the appeal was denied. As things stood 18 months ago, the man was required to pay damages to Vision Forum affiliates (something that was part of the mediation) for violating that agreement that the man naively assumed was not a legal proceeding. I expect now that he lost the appeal and that Vision Forum affiliates seized his property in compensation for the damages that were awarded them (for damaging their public relations and for the man's violating the mediation). There are a whole handful of other people -- people who will not come forward because they are terrified of Phillips -- who claim that they were offered deals with Phillips who essentially requires them to sign away their legal rights to sue or don't really have a viable chance of getting a favorable result if they do enter into legal action. People are terrified that Phillips' profession and ties to powerful people in the Christian right will leave them with nothing if the come forward. Basically, those within these groups employ the help of Ken Sande's Peacemaker Ministries, and they make you "submit" to Christian leaders and essentially waive your rights. If you don't comply with them, they declare you non-Christian and then sue you. I personally know people who own little more than their toothbrush because Ken Sande's style of mediation worked to the advantage of Vision Forum and "friends" until the statue of limitations expired, leaving them without recourse. (Vision Forum affiliates turned on at least one of these people and sued them after they were declared apostate so that they could disregard I Corinthians 6 which says Christians should not sue other Christians.) So, yes, people have tried to challenge their tax-exempt status and they have pursued legal action against Vision Forum affiliates and "friends." I know them and I know their stories. (And for the record, they contacted me. I did not seek them out.) Does Vision Forum and/or Doug Philips pay all the appropriate taxes to the IRS? You want to bring someone/an organization down? Get the IRS involved. They will literally freeze everything (all the assets). When there's no money, there's no "ministry". All of this other suing is ansy-pansy - of course, there will be no justice in Doug Philips/Vision Forum Christian Mediation Kangaroo Court. Instead, hit people where it hurts the most: their pocketbook. When the "lifestyles" of these "ministers" are affected, they will cease and desist. Guaranteed. Sure, the Vision Forum and others like them are powerful and have lawyers on staff. All good cults do. A sure-fire way to bring these cults down is to stop contributing money, time, and attention to them. Their clout and strength has been borne on the backs of many women, men, and children. Basically, it's been built on blood money. I do hope that individuals one by one come to sites like this and realize what the hello is truly going on. If the road to heaven and salvation is through one of these "ministries", I will take whatever alternative there is because this is surely NOT of any loving creator. This is the work of selfish, selfish, greedy, delusional men. Actually, they're not real men, they are wolves in sheep clothing disguised as men. They are truly evil with evil intentions. How can so many people be deluded into joining up with these so-called "ministries"? Doesn't it feel a little weird when someone is constantly making you feel "bad", making you feel "less than"? At what point does the voice inside say, "enough is enough"? Come on!!! Don't tell me that this is not true. Each of us has an inner voice/spirit that guides us. There is NO way that that voice can be turned off completely. Come on America, stop being patsies to these fundamentalist creeps!!!
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Post by cindy on Jun 15, 2010 9:44:53 GMT -5
According to the first article, the calculated risk is: He said the chances of such an embryo surviving is one in 60 million. I don't even buy lottery tickets, and that one in 60 million would be a positive payout. One in 60 MILLION! No way a sane person would play those odds. 59,999,999 mothers/babies die for each one mother/baby who makes it. The risk has been calculated, and it is unacceptable. Humbletigger, I put together some graphics and consolidated other information that puts some of this into perspective -- in a new blog post: undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/2010/06/how-vision-forum-lies-with-statistics.html
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maicde
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Post by maicde on Jun 15, 2010 9:52:49 GMT -5
. Oh, by the way, you're not supposed to use "your hand" to spank, because don't you know, "hands are for loving." (If you don't believe that, read the Pearl books). The point I was trying to make is that not everyone (in fact not most) people who advocate corporeal punishment are going to take it to that extreme. An argument from abuse that would be similar is to ban all alcoholic consumption because some people won't control themselves and therefore become drunk. I believe in the limited and occasional use of corporeal punishment where it is merited, but I most certainly do NOT approve of people beating their children like they did in this story. In Canada corporeal punishment is not against the law; however that is interpreted by each provincial gov't's social workers in various ways. I've had social workers intervention in my home on several occasions now thanks to the abusive ways of my ex-husband. In BC, where I live, if I used any sort of implement, I could be charged with assault for using a weapon whereas a swat on the bum with my hand is not considered assault. I believe that you are a normal person who is not going to beat their child(ren) to death or close to death. A lot of people use their hand to swat a child's butt. We are talking here about people who are already a brick shy of a load and they don't need much prodding to go medieval on a child using the teachings of the Pearls. Anyone who advocates using a switch on a 4 month old baby should NOT be giving either parenting advice or disciplining children advice. Instead, they should be committed to an institution under heavy security and medication. The problem is that the Pearls and those like them pluck biblical verses out of the bible, twist and contort them so they can validate their torture methods for children. So many of these people beat their children because they are trying to make them "Godly" children. Some of them, beat not only their children, but also beat (spank) their wives as some sort of chastisement. Unbelievable - yet true. And here we are, sado-masochists are given a bad name and reputation in the U.S., yet Christian fundamentalists do the same thing and it is awesome. (sarcasm). I'm sorry about your predicament with your ex-husband and having Canadian authorities come to your house to investigate. Hopefully, these bad times are in the past. Look, I know that many parents use their hand to lightly swat a child's butt. The reason why the Pearls don't advocate using a hand is because it leaves visible marks. Instead they advocate using a 1/4" plumber's line which doesn't leave marks, yet administers a quick sting ("quick sting" is debatable depending on whether you are the receiver or the giver). I read how a mom tried it on herself first and gave herself a quick switch on her arm. She said it hurt like the dickens and decided not to use it on her kids. The little girl that was switched to death with this plumber's line was beaten to a pulp; like what meat is like when it is tenderized. Her organs shut down. Her sister was also switched and was admitted to ICU, and was near death herself as her kidneys had shut down. Truly, these people are wicked beyond belief. They also are firmly entrenched in this Christian fundamentalist culture in the U.S. and they have supporters who defend the torture inflicted on their children. There's another story about a young man who ran away from home at age 18 because his dad beat him with a belt at home for some sort of infraction. He was too embarrassed to go to school and disrobe for gym, so he ran off. His parents, too, were followers of this type of methodology. There are too many stories to list; bottom line is that all of these ministries support this type of child torture to some degree. Of course, the severity depends on the mental state of the person administering the punishment. If you haven't read yet or been at the site yet, go to razingruth.blogspot.com. It's a very intriguing blog from a 25 year-old woman who ran away from such an upbringing. You will be intrigued. She writes in such a way that you will want to read it and become familiar with what goes on behind the scenes. Go back to "Older posts" until you get to the beginning. The blog posts are pretty short so you can get through them pretty quickly. They are also so interesting, it will be an easy read. Take care.
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Post by cindy on Jun 15, 2010 10:03:59 GMT -5
Maicde,
The folks who called the FBI to see if they could intervene and the gentleman who was sued and his friends did pursue this to the fullest extent that they could. It was scrutinized by attorneys. I'm assuming that they would have turned up something and pursued it if there was anything to pursue.
Vision Forum, Inc (www.visionform.com) is the for profit end of Vision Forum where they sell modesty slips for girls, toy hand grenades for boys, and CDs galore for indoctrination of the parents. (They even sell a statue of Calvin.)
Vision Forum Ministries (www.visionforumministries.org) is their non-profit, charitable group through which they run the NCFIC and host conferences.
They are different entities, but the same.
What's funny is that when I saw the financial statement for VFM, Scott Brown (director of the FIC thing) basically raised almost a million dollars in revenue for Vision Forum Ministries. But his expenses were nearly the same amount that he raised. Yet I have old emails where Phillips goes on about incredible debts.
He also has a benefactor, Jim Leininger, who basically bankrolled Vision Forum until it got established. Whether he still does cover debt and how much he contributes to Vision Forum Ministries is unclear. But Leininger purchased the home Phillips lives in. (When we lived in the area, the property and school taxes are quite high, and I would often wonder if the ministry paid for these also.) Leininger supports Mike Huckabee, Patrick Henry College, Bill Gothard, and was a big supporter of George W. Bush. Leininger, a physician, is also on one of Gothard's boards -- one of those organizations that gives out quack medical advice.
As Vision Forum does, things are clean based on the law, but what is legal is often not what is moral. But as a former associate of this crowd stated things, they are businessmen first, lawyers second, and Christians third, in that order. They will quibble with you about whether a civil law was broken while they are stabbing you in the gut.
And it is difficult because some of them follow what they call "The Rahab Clause. (I don't know if VF does or not-- another unwritten rule...) Rahab lied to her own government officials to hide Joshua and Caleb when they were trying to take the Promised Land. She was received into Israel and was one of Jesus' progenitors. From that, people developed the doctrine that basically says that it's okay to lie in times of war. And they think we are in a culture war and tell us of the war against the culture of death, so does that mean they believe that they have God's blessing to lie? Who knows. But they play the honest white foot card quite well.
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maicde
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Post by maicde on Jun 15, 2010 10:13:00 GMT -5
Maicde, The folks who called the FBI to see if they could intervene and the gentleman who was sued and his friends did pursue this to the fullest extent that they could. It was scrutinized by attorneys. I'm assuming that they would have turned up something and pursued it if there was anything to pursue. Vision Forum, Inc (www.visionform.com) is the for profit end of Vision Forum where they sell modesty slips for girls, toy hand grenades for boys, and CDs galore for indoctrination of the parents. (They even sell a statue of Calvin.) Vision Forum Ministries (www.visionforumministries.org) is their non-profit, charitable group through which they run the NCFIC and host conferences. They are different entities, but the same. What's funny is that when I saw the financial statement for VFM, Scott Brown (director of the FIC thing) basically raised almost a million dollars in revenue for Vision Forum Ministries. But his expenses were nearly the same amount that he raised. Yet I have old emails where Phillips goes on about incredible debts. He also has a benefactor, Jim Leininger, who basically bankrolled Vision Forum until it got established. Whether he still does cover debt and how much he contributes to Vision Forum Ministries is unclear. But Leininger purchased the home Phillips lives in. (When we lived in the area, the property and school taxes are quite high, and I would often wonder if the ministry paid for these also.) Leininger supports Mike Huckabee, Patrick Henry College, Bill Gothard, and was a big supporter of George W. Bush. Leininger, a physician, is also on one of Gothard's boards -- one of those organizations that gives out quack medical advice. As Vision Forum does, things are clean based on the law, but what is legal is often not what is moral. But as a former associate of this crowd stated things, they are businessmen first, lawyers second, and Christians third, in that order. They will quibble with you about whether a civil law was broken while they are stabbing you in the gut. And it is difficult because some of them follow what they call "The Rahab Clause. (I don't know if VF does or not-- another unwritten rule...) Rahab lied to her own government officials to hide Joshua and Caleb when they were trying to take the Promised Land. She was received into Israel and was one of Jesus' progenitors. From that, people developed the doctrine that basically says that it's okay to lie in times of war. And they think we are in a culture war and tell us of the war against the culture of death, so does that mean they believe that they have God's blessing to lie? Who knows. But they play the honest white foot card quite well. Cindy, thank you very much for not only clarifiying but also adding more information. Yes, I definitely believe what you are saying. So much of all of this is done behind the scenes, behind the curtain, so much wheeling and dealing because like you said, they are first businessmen, lawyers second, and Christians third. It always comes to "follow the money trail" and you will find the answer. Of course, to their financial supporters (which are all of their adherants), they put the front out there that they are Christians first whereas in reality, it's ALL about the money and the power. There is nothing wrong with money; it is a commodity that can be used for good, but in their case, they are using other people's hard-earned money to make themselves rulers and kings. I guess the "you shall have no other Gods before me" is a moot point with them because they are making themselves "gods" in all effect. They are such hypocrites. Also, the political connections are intriguing (yet, not surprising). Of course, the political connections to these groups is not made public, the public is supposed to figure it all out for themselves. Of course, much of this base who votes - votes on the recommendation of their pastor/church or they vote on one or two issues (usually pro life and anti-gay marriage). The women who are entrenched into this patriarchal system votes on the recommendation of their husbands. Right now, I am having a hard time going to church and being "Catholic." (I was not raised Catholic, I was raised Seventh Day Adventist and converted to Catholicism in my late 20's - I am now 47). Catholicism has changed A LOT since I converted, has changed A LOT just since George Bush took office. It has taken on a whole new life of it's own, is going down the path of joining Christian fundamentalists and I don't like where it's going. I'm tired of hearing about the "Culture of Death" as some sort of mantra. Basically, I'm at the point where my three youngest children (of seven) are finishing school up at a Catholic K-8 school. This Fall, they will be an 8th grader, 7th grader and the youngest one a 3rd grader. I hope to God that I can make it through the next following years at least to get the 8th and 7th grader through and then on to public high school. I'm not sure if the 3rd grader will remain there through 8th grade if things get much worse. Right now, we have a pretty liberal priest; I call him "liberal" because he's a very easy-going, low-key priest, doesn't run the church or school with an iron fist. Who knows how long the parish will be okay with this. Right now, he's very well liked, but depending on how much this whole thing gets out of hand, anything is possible. One of our former Catholic school teachers wrote an editorial in a local newspaper and to be truthful with you, I was scared. We've known this teacher and his wife (a nurse) for 20 years now, all of our kids had him except the youngest and we absolutely love him and his family. I was absolutely shocked when I read his editorial in the paper and found so many things that sounded like they were straight from Rush Limbaugh or Glen Beck. It was all about "culture of death", "putting in leaders who are following God's will" - complete with bible verses. Maybe I'm the one who's changed and can no longer follow...I don't know. These groups don't really care about their voting base, they just need their votes so they can get voted in in order to get their legislation legislated and entrench themselves further into our government. Why people can't see that, I don't know. The rights that are slowly being taken away actually affect all of us, including their "base", yet their base is so indoctrinated, that they don't even figure it out until something tragic happens to them or someone they love. Usually, it's the women and children that are hurt the most. All I can say is that your posts are terrific. Thank you for your time in not only writing your initial article but also responding.
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Post by francescateresa on Jun 15, 2010 10:39:23 GMT -5
Cindy, I second Maicde's thanks! Your knowledge is wonderful. Thank you for sharing. I am going to be showing your post and your subsequent comments to my family members!
Sadly, I am not at all surprised by the Vision Forum's insane stance on ectopic pregnancies...I've been hearing this cruel insanity for years from many other similar sources.
My family had involvement in the early, local days of the anti-abortion movement (how can these hateful people call themselves pro-life) a long time ago in a liberal state...at the groups liberal and kinder inception...but we left the area and went to a crazy mid-western state where every aspect of the state's right to life movement was punitive, cruel and hateful on every single level!
It has been sad to watch the organizations' decent (particularly certain state and local branches) into craziness and a compassion-less stance as advocated by other groups like the Vision Forum! ... but it all comes down to ... follow the money ... provoke guilt ... make more money ...
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Post by dangermom on Jun 15, 2010 11:50:05 GMT -5
I believe that you are a normal person who is not going to beat their child(ren) to death or close to death. A lot of people use their hand to swat a child's butt. We are talking here about people who are already a brick shy of a load and they don't need much prodding to go medieval on a child using the teachings of the Pearls. Anyone who advocates using a switch on a 4 month old baby should NOT be giving either parenting advice or disciplining children advice. Instead, they should be committed to an institution under heavy security and medication. The problem is that the Pearls and those like them pluck biblical verses out of the bible, twist and contort them so they can validate their torture methods for children. So many of these people beat their children because they are trying to make them "Godly" children. Some of them, beat not only their children, but also beat (spank) their wives as some sort of chastisement. Unbelievable - yet true. And here we are, sado-masochists are given a bad name and reputation in the U.S., yet Christian fundamentalists do the same thing and it is awesome. (sarcasm). Here's the thing about the Schatz's--they weren't a crazy family. They were right there in the mainstream of QF, doing exactly what the Pearls' book told them to do--to keep "switching" the defiant child until her will was broken and she submitted. They interpreted her cries as defiance, since she wasn't "whimpering" like the Pearls tell you to expect. All their Christian friends liked them and considered Mrs. Schatz to be a gentle, kind, loving mother. But since the Pearls' advice is abusive, and not Christian at all, a lot of children are severely harmed by it. And a few are going to die, until we get the word out there that it's an awful book that should be thrown out and never followed. Lydia will not be the last victim, unless conservative Christians rise up and throw the Pearls out of their midst. The real kicker about the Pearls and their ilk is that if you believe them, you--loving, well-socialized, reasonable you--will accidentally beat your child to death out of love and duty. PS some of you may be interested in reading this article from a secular homeschooling magazine on the Pearls.
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Post by cindy on Jun 15, 2010 12:07:56 GMT -5
Look, I am just so incredibly grateful to know that people think this is horrible... And I tried and tried and worked and worked to get someone to pay attention to this matter 2 years ago -- it is wonderful to me to see other people get engaged about it.
If any of you read my emotional posts from last week on my own blog, it might help you understand why I have been interested in this matter. And it does demonstrate very clearly many of the spiritually abusive elements of totalistic and ideological groups like Vision Forum. If you hold them to Lifton's criteria, they demonstrate thought reform patterns. If you use Henke's spiritual abuse criteria as a standard, they read like the textbook.
And it is one thing to privately say "I am convicted that I should do such and such..." But it is an entirely different mater to say "Everyone under all circumstances must do what we say because we know better than you." I guess that Romans 14 is missing from that "Patriarch's Bible."
In the Christian sense, this seems to me to be so paternalistic that they not only think every Christian is a helpless chump, God must be equally powerless to do His own will without their help! I was taught that the Word of God was effective, powerful, and sufficient to do whatever God wanted to do with it. It is transcendent, powerful and true -- with me or without me. In concert with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and with the SUPPORT of the church, God does great and mighty things. We don't need Moses to go up into heaven for us -- we can go ourselves because that's what the book says. And they take wonderful, holy and sweet healing grace and tread on it like it was manure. And it breaks my heart.
So being well received here and particularly concerning this matter that is so important to me means the world.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Jun 15, 2010 16:05:07 GMT -5
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Post by cindy on Jun 15, 2010 17:05:18 GMT -5
For all my friends out there who are psych majors, statisticians, and other related geeks. (Where's those psych majors who know about Zimbardo and get after me about my misleading use of "negative stimuli"/reinforcement when you need them? ) Ha! If you math types looked at my blog post from earlier today about "Lying With Statistics," your heads are likely ready to explode. I just posted this disclaimer as a late note, but I wanted to run it by my husband first. (That I did want to peer review first.) This is not my forte as far as actually doing the calculations, as with the advent of the PC and software like PC SAS and Access, I don't have to do as much thinking about this. But I've had enough statistics and did enough calculating of the odds of pulling an ace of hearts from a deck of cards if card X, Y, and Z are already in plain view, ect. It is not a simple matter of dividing and estimating. So I have posted this and I welcome anyone who so desires to offer some moral and mathematical support! I see where this guy came up with his "One in 60 Mil" stats, and he did what most physicians do -- they think the number of cases represents the true probability of a thing. I posted this Late Note on my blog under the post:I have to address something here that I bantered around for the sake of argument to give some reference to what 1 in 60 million means. I believe that this number is a gross exaggeration of probability. This physician did not calculate the odds correctly, and my instructor in statistics would eat his lunch. He arrives at a rough estimate based upon numbers of pregnancies bounced off of all pregnancies to figure out an incident rate. But this is not scientifically accurate. What needs to be done to truly say anything meaningful (in terms of the rules of statistics) involves looking at the population subset in context to determine rules for that subset. What this physician is doing is making gross estimates, not determining probability. In other words, if you are going to make presumptions about probability for a subset, you have to look at the subset, not at the whole population. He is wrong to look at all pregnancies to find probability. (I also would like to see hard data that documents these supposed 60-100 cases of ectopic pregnancies.) But assuming they do exist, to determine probability that is meaningful, you have to start with ectopic pregnancy numbers themselves. Think about it. Ectopics occur in 0.003% of all pregnancies. We know definitively what those numbers are. We don’t have to extrapolate to arrive at them. Of that small number, 98% of those are tubal pregnancies and can never survive. What is 2% of 0.003%. It is not much. It is from that group that the surviving babies arise. You can't start with all pregnancies to make such generalizations about such a tiny group. I’m to lazy to pull out the book and a calculator, but I suspect that the incidence is much greater than 1 in 60 million. It is probably more in the neighborhood of 1 in 120 million. (Lord only knows.) I think that 1:60 MIL is a gross overestimate of frequency. That’s why it is more efficacious in the discussion to look at maternal death rates and how many deaths are attributed to ectopic pregnancy to make a rational statement about incidence. The population of deaths is larger, it can be evaluated and put to the test with mathematical tools to ensure that it is meaningful. But I had to start somewhere…. Even with this gross overestimate, these odds are ridiculous.
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Post by cherylannhannah on Jun 15, 2010 17:51:45 GMT -5
I took the liberty of posting Cindy's blog post on statistics on my FB page and garnered the following: spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/Phil160,Fall02/thomson.htm Also, the Catholic moral philosophical doctrine of Double Effect was raised: "If you're faced with a situation where you have 2 and only two options (so you HAVE to do one or the other), and both action brings about some kind of evil, you are morally justified to do the one that brings about the least amount of evil JUST SO LONG as you don't intend to bring about that evil, but actually intend for some other good. The evil that you bring about is an unintended byproduct. So in the ectopic pregnancy case, you try to move the embryo into the uterus, intending to bring about a normal pregnancy, knowing that the embryo is likely to die. You don't intend the death, but you foresee it as a likely consequence of bringing about a greater good--a healthy, normal pregnancy where mom and baby can flourish."
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