|
Post by krwordgazer on Jul 11, 2010 20:48:04 GMT -5
My understanding of what complementarians usually mean by "the feminization of the church" is that it has little or nothing to do with erotic mysticism. What I hear are complaints that 60% of church attendees are women; that sermons from the pulpit focus on the supposedly "feminine" traits of humility, love and gentleness; and that Christ is portrayed as meek and mild rather than as forceful and commanding.
Men are supposedly being discouraged from church attendance because their "manly" inclinations are not being adequately addressed; churches should go back singing songs about "spiritual warfare" and the church as "the army of Christ," and so on. If this is done then men will start coming back to church and taking up the reins of lay ministry that are currently being sustained by women. And so on.
In short, it's all women's fault, and the fault of preachers who pander to their female congregants rather than preaching "manly" sermons. This even though men are still almost completely in charge of the upper leadership of almost all Christian churches except the liberal Protestants. This even though women are taking up the lay-ministries because someone needs to do them, and because the focus on patriarchy often leads men to feel privileged to do exactly as they like-- and that means watching ballgames on TV on Sunday afternoons, not staying at the church for lay-ministry.
I'm a Christian mystic myself. (Nods to Nikita) What I mean by that is that I have spiritual experiences of the presence of God. I have never belonged to a church that put an overemphasis on "the Bride of Christ" imagery like JWR is describing. I can see how this might be difficult for heterosexual men to relate to-- but frankly, as a heterosexual woman I find it hard to relate to myself. God is metaphorically depicted with both male and female images in the Bible; but sexual metaphors-- God having sexual intercourse of any kind-- are simply not there. The Song of Solomon is first of all a celebration of human sexual love. If it is going to be allegorized, it should be done with care, since that is not the original authorial intent.
Anyway, I agree with Jemand. The "Bride of Christ" imagery appears in the midst of biblical imagery that is weighted towards the masculine in most other cases. As such, this feminine imagery provides a check-and-balance to the male-centric cultures in which the texts were written down. For men to begrudge women the female-centered images that do appear, is pretty unfair. If "Bride of Christ" imagery isn't helpful in one's own personal Christian mystical life, by all means choose other imagery. And if your church is placing too much emphasis on sexuality in mysticism, then steer clear or go to another church. But (and I'm not saying JWR is doing this, I'm just trying to make a point) please don't claim that the use of "the Bride of Christ" as an image unfairly "feminizes" the church. It just isn't so.
|
|
jwr
Full Member
Posts: 218
|
Post by jwr on Jul 14, 2010 0:22:13 GMT -5
Hi KR, I agree with all you're saying here. But in my comments I was specifically riffing off of Vyckie's review of Hedges' take on the matter. I was developing one of the many aspects of emasculation that Hedges was speaking of, because that's the one I'm familiar with--since the charismatic movement has taken the long tradition of personal bridal mysticism (first recorded in detail by the Church Father Jerome) and grossly overblown it. To clarify a few things that always get misconstrued when anyone discusses this: 1. I have nothing against the imagery of the Church as the Bride of Christ (which is not the same thing as bridal mysticism). 2. Nor do I have a problem with bridal mysticism ("personal brideship") per se. It works well for many women and for many men. I'm only against churches making bridal mysticism the normative practice that we're all supposed to follow. Like I said, hetero males who can't spiritually transgender themselves, are left in the lurch here. In settings like this, we're strangers at the gate; outsiders, rejects from our own religious tradition. Another problem with making bridal mysticism the norm is that hetero men who, due to group pressure enter into it, do feel emasculated. And to compensate, they go into a hypermasculinity overdrive. Thus the paradoxical construction they've created of "the warrior-bride." I cannot mention names on this forum, but please trust me when I say that two of the most radical dominionist prayer leaders (one of whom is now world-famous; you and most other members know his name) are extreme closet bridal mystics. And the more they play the bride role, the more they overcompensate by playing the warrior role; warriors who want a theocractic America. To summarize: when it comes to bridal mysticism, I'm all for letting everybody "find their own bliss." But when they try to force it upon the church at large, my response is, "Not only no, but Hell No!" All the gender issues you brought up in your reply are totally legitimate. I'm painfully aware of all the gender problems that organized religion engenders, and I'm even more painfully aware that I know of no good solution for them. My approach, which has come about gradually, is to have a much more abstract idea of God; un-reifying the divine. Holding onto all gender and other metaphors so loosely that I often drop them and can't seem to find them anymore. Moses' tradition was "No graven image." My personal tradition has become even more extreme: "No mental image." After all, the idols of every god/goddess began as racially and culturally formed mental images. The Bengali idol maker crafts images of Durga or Kali out of straw, clay and paint. The end result, in both the mythology and iconography, is an idol that looks like an exagerated Bengali woman. In many cases, if you take away the extra arms, the image is not even exaggerated. An idol of Durga with only two arms would look just like the craftsman's own mother. Likewise, Krishna is an overblown image of a north Indian cow herder, Rama is an overblown image of a north Indian prince, Allah is an over-magnfified version of an Arabian merchant-cum-warlord, and the Jesus of the Christian Right is an overblown image of an ancient near-eastern king. Well, that's enough ranting and raving for now. I'll end this with the lyrics of another song. The worship song I listed earlier in this thread is 15 years old or more. The following is presently a top-ten favorite in charismatic churches across the West today. You'll recognize direct quotes from Song of Solomon here ("over the hills and upon the mountains," etc.). How many men, if given a choice between singing this song in a mauve-hued church, or hanging out in a sports bar, would chose the church? How many the sports bar? The Barna polls answer that question. DANCE WITH ME by Paul Wilbur (Seeing the YouTube video will really get the point across! www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GGZKDQn48Q ) Behold you have come over the hills, and upon the mountains To me you have run my beloved, you've captured my heart (2x) (Chorus): Dance with me O Lover of my soul to the song of all songs Romance me O Lover of my soul to the song of all songs With you I will go You are my love You are my fair one Winter has passed and the spring time has come (Repeat chorus repeatedly; so much so that worshippers often go into a semi-hypnotic state)
|
|
|
Post by grandmalou on Jul 14, 2010 10:42:23 GMT -5
JWR... Correct me if I'm not getting this, but I sorta think what you are saying, is...and please, somebody, tell me where this is found in the Scriptures... "There is neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek, slave, nor free. But we are all ONE in Christ." I don't know...but I still see a person's eyes first thing, and due to a lot of years of needing to be prepared for "fight or flight" can pretty well tell CHARACTER. IMHO, it has absolutely nothing to do with gender, race, color of skin, any of that stuff. It is all about the heart. All of us who live on this planet are connected in some way or another. I think there will always be some kind of turmoil to deal with until we begin to see people, not by their outward appearances, but by their hearts.
|
|
|
Post by grandmalou on Jul 14, 2010 10:54:19 GMT -5
And speaking of songs...this one by Brandon Heath...oh, yeah!
Looked down from a broken sky Traced out by the city lights My world from a mile high Best seat in the house tonight Touched down on the cold black top Hold on for the sudden stop Breath in the familiar shock Of confusion and chaos All those people going somewhere, Why have I never cared? Chorus: Give me your eyes for just one second Give me your eyes so I can see Everything that I keep missing Give me your love for humanity Give me your arms for the broken hearted Ones that are far beyond my reach. Give me your heart for the ones forgotten Give me your eyes so I can see Yeah Yeah yeah yeah Step out on a busy street See a girl and our eyes meet Does her best to smile at me To hide what's underneath There's a man just to her right Black suit and a bright red tie Too ashamed to tell his wife He's out of work He's buying time All those people going somewhere Why have I never cared? Chorus Give me your eyes for just one second Give me your eyes so I can see Everything that I keep missing Give me your love for humanity Give me your arms for the broken hearted Ones that are far beyond my reach. Give me your heart for the ones forgotten Give me your eyes so I can see Yeah Yeah yeah yeah I've Been there a million times A couple of million eyes Just moving past me by I swear I never thought that I was wrong Well I want a second glance So give me a second chance To see the way you see the people all along Chorus (x2) Give me your eyes for just one second Give me your eyes so I can see Everything that I keep missing Give me your love for humanity Give me your arms for the broken hearted Ones that are far beyond my reach. Give me your heart for the ones forgotten Give me your eyes so I can see Yeah Yeah yeah yeah
|
|
|
Post by usotsuki on Jul 14, 2010 11:41:08 GMT -5
JWR... Correct me if I'm not getting this, but I sorta think what you are saying, is...and please, somebody, tell me where this is found in the Scriptures... "There is neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek, slave, nor free. But we are all ONE in Christ." Galatians 3.28
|
|
jwr
Full Member
Posts: 218
|
Post by jwr on Jul 14, 2010 12:06:19 GMT -5
Hi Grandmalou,
Thanks for that note and the song. Yes, it's not gender, race or anything else, but who we are inside that counts. But as you know, religion & culture has a way of wreaking havoc with people based on their gender. If that were not the case, NLQ wouldn't even exist. That Galatians verse you quoted is the best, most liberating gender statement I've ever read. If all the world's preachers would focus on this verse instead of the others they do, what a better place this world would be!
But in real life, gender always messes things up. Just seven hours ago (about 4 PM India time) I actually wished for a moment that I was a woman. "What?" you might ask. Well, there's a good reason for that.
After being gone from India several months, I visited my friend's motorcycle customizing/repair shop in Calcutta. He's a Punjabi Hindu. He wasn't there, but his 17 year old daughter was, and she looked really disheveled and unwell. I asked where her dad was. She looked down and quietly replied, "He passed away."
"WHAT?"
"Yes, he had a heart attack."
"But he was so strong and healthy, how could it be?!"
"I know he was. But I guess that just wasn't his day," she replied.
I was totally stunned. He was my friend. AND HE WAS ONLY 40! I kept saying to her how sorry I was; what a good chap her dad was. But this just made her all the more sad, and it was really awkward. I wished I could hug her right there because I was in tears too.
But I'm a 47 year old male, and she's a 17 year old female, and such a thing is just downright unacceptable in public in India. This stupid gender thing didn't even allow me to deal with my sudden shock, and how my shock was exacerbating his daughter's grief. And that's why I wished for a moment that I was a woman. Then I could have hugged her and we could both could have cried, and it would be good and socially acceptable.
But instead of anything cathartic like that, I felt worse and worse, and then got on my motorcycle. As I drove down Rafi Ahmed Kidwai Street I got angry at death and started cursing loudly.
See how whacked out this gender thing is; people can't even go into shock and grieve right because of it. How messed up is that?
|
|
|
Post by grandmalou on Jul 14, 2010 12:38:34 GMT -5
Ouch, JWR! I am so sorry that happened, and I quote you here: "But I'm a 47 year old male, and she's a 17 year old female, and such a thing is just downright unacceptable in public in India. This stupid gender thing didn't even allow me to deal with my sudden shock, and how my shock was exacerbating his daughter's grief. And that's why I wished for a moment that I was a woman. Then I could have hugged her and we could both could have cried, and it would be good and socially acceptable. But instead of anything cathartic like that, I felt worse and worse, and then got on my motorcycle. As I drove down Rafi Ahmed Kidwai Street I got angry at death and started cursing loudly. See how whacked out this gender thing is; people can't even go into shock and grieve right because of it. How messed up is that?" You're right! That is totally messed up! How awful for you both! Wish I could give you both huge cyberhugs!
|
|
|
Post by grandmalou on Jul 14, 2010 12:45:18 GMT -5
JWR... Correct me if I'm not getting this, but I sorta think what you are saying, is...and please, somebody, tell me where this is found in the Scriptures... "There is neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek, slave, nor free. But we are all ONE in Christ." Galatians 3.28 Thanks so much, Usotsuki... I am so not good at remembering "addresses"
|
|
|
Post by coleslaw on Jul 14, 2010 17:57:34 GMT -5
I'm not sure that it is "messed up". When I think back to myself at 17, I'm not too sure I would have found hugs from a 47-year-old friend of my dad comforting in this circumstance. I would have found it off-putting or even creepy. I also might have felt as if I had to be polite and respectful to an older person and therefore unable to decline an unwanted hug. Do you think she really wanted a hug from an older male right then, or is it possible that you needed a hug and so assumed she did too?
|
|
jwr
Full Member
Posts: 218
|
Post by jwr on Jul 15, 2010 1:20:00 GMT -5
Coleslaw, you're probably 100% right. She very well might have thought it to be creepy. That's one of the reasons I said I wished at that moment I was a woman. I've lost friends before, but they were either old, and so I expected it; or they died after long, drawn-out drug addictions. So even though it was really sad, it wasn't a shock or surprise. But getting that news yesterday was the emotional equivalent of being hit square in the face with a baseball bat. I was in that state of shock and dismay when I wrote the post, and am still shook up today. In other words, what I wrote was an irrational rant; and yes it probably was me who needed the hug. grandmalou: Thanks for the cyberhugs!
|
|
|
Post by krwordgazer on Jul 15, 2010 1:24:48 GMT -5
JWR, I'm so sorry about your friend. And I understand what you're saying in your response to my response.
|
|
|
Post by coleslaw on Jul 15, 2010 7:48:31 GMT -5
Coleslaw, you're probably 100% right. She very well might have thought it to be creepy. That's one of the reasons I said I wished at that moment I was a woman. I've lost friends before, but they were either old, and so I expected it; or they died after long, drawn-out drug addictions. So even though it was really sad, it wasn't a shock or surprise. But getting that news yesterday was the emotional equivalent of being hit square in the face with a baseball bat. I was in that state of shock and dismay when I wrote the post, and am still shook up today. In other words, what I wrote was an irrational rant; and yes it probably was me who needed the hug. grandmalou: Thanks for the cyberhugs! I'm sorry, jwr, I missed the part where this was a current event. Somehow I though you were telling about an event that happened a while back. (I was reading at work and hence skimming.) I'm so sorry about your friend, and that you got the news in such an unexpectedly way. Hugs from me, too. Are there any stories about you and your friend that it would comfort you to tell us?
|
|