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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Jul 15, 2010 13:22:17 GMT -5
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Post by hopewell on Jul 15, 2010 13:37:34 GMT -5
Seriously, these stories are so compelling I find myself checking NLQ way too often to see if there's a new installment. This one is no different--I want to read MORE and I want to read it NOW!
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Post by margybargy on Jul 15, 2010 17:46:39 GMT -5
Horrifying! Glad you made it out. It sounds like shame and guilt were a big factor in marrying this guy in this first place.
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Post by nikita on Jul 15, 2010 19:17:15 GMT -5
First off, I am so sorry you went through all of that. Not having a sufficient support system that is sensitive to abuse is, I think, what traps so many people in bad relationships like this. That whole, 'you made your bed now lie in it' attitude, when it is all so unnecessary. If we only knew it at the time... I love the 'world bicycle tour honeymoon' though - the seventies were quite the era. Among the people I knew it was almost a contest to see who could have the most unusual and most uncomfortable honeymoon. You write well and your life is very interesting. I can't wait to hear more if you are ready to tell us about it. Seeing how things played out in your life can really give insight to others who might be headed down that same road. ETA: Hey! This was post 16000! That's a lot of talkin' going on here...
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Post by chbernat on Jul 15, 2010 19:53:49 GMT -5
CherylAnnHannah~
There is sooo much that I wish I could say. Your thoughts on Calvinism were so enlightening...my own mother was a Reformed Calvinist. Excellent observation.
All I can say is that I am sorry. I know what its like to feel abuse and to feel isolated. Its rampant in the movement. As a child who was victim to her parent's abuse, I can relate. You feel powerless and hopeless. I want to THANK YOU for having the courage to leave the situation. To leave the Movement. Your children will one day sing your praises and bless you in the gates, if they have not done so already. And I thank you. It takes a lot of courage for a mother to leave all that she knows for the betterment of herself and her children (that's why I love you and Vyckie!!).
Praying blessings to be rained down on you from heaven, Chandra
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Post by krwordgazer on Jul 15, 2010 22:00:24 GMT -5
Wow, what a story so far! My heart goes out to you, Cherylannhannah.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Jul 15, 2010 22:44:27 GMT -5
Cheryl ~ the reason I picked "The next day, the floral arrangement arrived" for the subtitle of this post is that when I read that part of your story, my heart skipped as I remembered that Warren did this too ~ and after years of getting flowers as atonement for his totally evil behavior, I got to the point that I really hated professional flower arrangements. If the kids pick me a bouquet from the backyard, great ~ but please don't have flowers delivered to me ~ it'll only make me cringe.
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Post by cherylannhannah on Jul 15, 2010 22:59:06 GMT -5
Thanks for your kind words everyone!
Vyckie, one of the things that I decided to do was not to let my ex-husband make me bitter against all men, not to hate flowers, and not to let my ex-church turn me against all churches. So, I still like men, just not the abusive controlling ones, I still love flowers, even professonally arranged ones, and I still love the real church -- those who love and serve God, not just the religiosity that often masquerades as the church.
Cheryl
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Post by krwordgazer on Jul 16, 2010 0:24:43 GMT -5
I'm glad you were able to do that, Cherylannhannah. As for me, I'm more like Vyckie-- stuff that reminds me of that bad time in my own life, is stuff I have a disgust reaction to whether I want to or not. It's kind of like when you get food poisoning and then for the next year or two you can't eat the food item that made you sick.
I am slowly re-conditioning myself, but there are still things I can't do. Like going to large church conferences. When someone invites me to one, all I can do is shudder and make polite excuses. . .
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Post by arietty on Jul 16, 2010 0:45:32 GMT -5
Cheryl I am so sad to read your story. My mother also told me that if I ever got pregnant I would be "out on my ear" and she "wasn't raising some bastard kid". She said that when I was 16 and I never forgot it, it was soooo horrible. I did not get pregnant, but if I had what would I have done? I had no one. Now that I have teenage girls I cannot BELIEVE any mother would say such a thing. Several of the fundy families I know have had their teen girls get pregnant and they have rallied round and pitched in and embraced their daughters with love. On the one hand I think my mother said that just to scare me into not being stupid but on the other I know she would not have supported me in the least.
I went through a big Calvinist phase myself. So sad too to think we actually believed that going to church or hearing some great speaker would inspire our husbands to be nice.. it really only inspires people who want to be better to others and to improve their relationships, not people who want to have more power and control.
Well. I am glad you are out. As to the flowers, my trigger things are mostly people since I live in the same area. But there's a lot I'm done with as far as church goes.. I will never sit though another talk about gender or marriage for instance. They don't trigger me, I just think most of what is taught is utter BS.
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Post by nikita on Jul 16, 2010 1:09:35 GMT -5
At least you got flowers.
And I'm not being flippant. My husband never once gave me flowers or anything else in apology for being an abusive asshat. You see, when you sin you just have to repent and say 'sorry' and God forgives you, right? So that's all that's necessary when you hurt other people. A quick barely sincere 'sorry' = done and done. And then you become the sinful bad one for not forgiving him when he said 'sorry'. Even a lame off the cuff 'sorry' at that. I have a gazillion 'sorrys'. Twenty years of 'sorrys'. I saved every card and pretty much every note I ever got from him and I kid you not, at least 95% of them begin 'I'm sorry...' Birthday cards, Christmas cards, Valentines cards, Mothers Day cards... 'I'm sorry'.
So flowers are great for me. But when I hear the words 'I'm sorry' spoken by him for absolutely anything at all I have to check myself to not slip into some old rage. That's my trigger. He broke my 'I'm sorry' receptor. The up side is he knows this now and is very careful to try not to say that to me casually because the results are less than pleasant when he does. I still don't get flowers but I do now get the full on 'deepest apologies can you ever forgive me' treatment, which doesn't trigger me, and it;s not for abuse anymore, it's for just normal stuff. So at least he's learning. And there's the plus that I don't actually have to live with him so it's not like it used to be.
But I don't take that away from you Cheryl, if you can work through it enough to not let it trigger you. Life is probably easier that way.
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Post by usotsuki on Jul 16, 2010 7:04:58 GMT -5
I knew someone who used to say "I've got a basement full of I'm sorries"
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Post by cherylannhannah on Jul 16, 2010 7:14:17 GMT -5
Don't worry, I still have my triggers. One of them is when my little girl cries when her father brings her home because he has kept yet more of the stuff I bought for her and he won't let her have it back. He's taken clothes that I have bought my kids and then locks it up in his bedroom and sends them home in junky clothing so that they either have to go to school in the rags, or I am forced to replace them. I've had to start monitoring to make sure that nothing leaves my house that they want to keep and that they aren't wearing any of the nice clothes I managed to buy them! Anyhow, the big weenie called the RCMP on me because I "assaulted" his van when he did the latest to my girlie. I hit the hood with the flat of my hand and that combined with the fact that I called him a jerk and an asshole before the whole neighborhood traumatized him. I could practically hear the officer's eyes rolling in his head when he found out why I hit the van. And I still get PTSD triggers at times. Just had one last week and when they hit my first response is to want to throw myself off the nearest bridge. At least I am recovering in days instead of the weeks and months it used to take me. I won't give the X the satisfaction of thinking he drove me to this. Plus success and happiness in life is the best form of revenge! I knew I was making progress when I wanted this for myself, not just because I wanted to show him. KD, to this day I cannot attend a reformed church despite loving many of the people who attend there. I won't go to any meeting that requires me to look a certain way to fit in, like the Two by Two's. I am highly allergic to anything that smacks of conformity and legalism. Some of this is purely reactionary and I hope to overcome being reactionary in this lifetime, but some of it is because I won't give up my hardwon liberty and freedom to be who I am. I spent too much of my life conforming because I was afraid of how I looked to others. Too much of my child discipline was done more for the sake of looking like a good parent rather than for the good of my children. *sigh* Now I don't care what I look like. It's how God sees me that matters. I take comfort in the fact that He knows my frame and remembers that I am dust, especially when I mess up.
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Post by chbernat on Jul 16, 2010 11:46:04 GMT -5
CAH~
I love your perspective on men, flowers and churches! I feel the same way...which is perhaps why I haven't allowed my relationship with God (and church) to deteriorate.
Coming out of legalism, QF, etc., etc. is like running naked in a field of wild flowers. At first, you feel so free. Liberated. Unhindered. Then pretty soon you realize that there are actually some articles of clothing that would be beneficial to have or that you need. Then begins the hard process of sorting through and deciding what to keep and what to throw away!
hugs!
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Post by dasunrisin on Jul 16, 2010 12:51:02 GMT -5
Vyckie, please please remember to post trigger warnings for writings that contain descriptions of abuse. It's important for women to be able to consent to what they're about to read!
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Post by arietty on Jul 16, 2010 19:28:31 GMT -5
Vyckie, please please remember to post trigger warnings for writings that contain descriptions of abuse. It's important for women to be able to consent to what they're about to read! I agree with this, not to criticize V who was trying to get that blog post up after delays and whom we all are very grateful to for this forum/blog!! The worst physical abuse I suffered always happened when I was pregnant. Sometimes it's good to be be able to brace yourself that abuse is coming in a post.
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Post by ShellyC on Jul 16, 2010 22:45:27 GMT -5
CAH~ I love your perspective on men, flowers and churches! I feel the same way...which is perhaps why I haven't allowed my relationship with God (and church) to deteriorate. Coming out of legalism, QF, etc., etc. is like running naked in a field of wild flowers. At first, you feel so free. Liberated. Unhindered. Then pretty soon you realize that there are actually some articles of clothing that would be beneficial to have or that you need. Then begins the hard process of sorting through and deciding what to keep and what to throw away! hugs! WOW! Perfectly put, I could not have said it better myself! I left the legalism/ ultra-religious church movement, but not my relationship with Christ. I do not wish to have anything at all control me anymore, to do so, would place me right back in bondage. Sorta like being a slave to something(flowers) or (someone). If that makes sense for example.
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Post by coleslaw on Jul 17, 2010 9:06:21 GMT -5
Vyckie, please please remember to post trigger warnings for writings that contain descriptions of abuse. It's important for women to be able to consent to what they're about to read! I agree with this, not to criticize V who was trying to get that blog post up after delays and whom we all are very grateful to for this forum/blog!! The worst physical abuse I suffered always happened when I was pregnant. Sometimes it's good to be be able to brace yourself that abuse is coming in a post. As soon as I saw the title, I knew the article was going to be about abuse. Do you mean it's possible to have experience with spousal abuse and not know what this article was going to be about from the title?
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Jul 17, 2010 10:27:28 GMT -5
I agree with this, not to criticize V who was trying to get that blog post up after delays and whom we all are very grateful to for this forum/blog!! The worst physical abuse I suffered always happened when I was pregnant. Sometimes it's good to be be able to brace yourself that abuse is coming in a post. As soon as I saw the title, I knew the article was going to be about abuse. Do you mean it's possible to have experience with spousal abuse and not know what this article was going to be about from the title? Sorry, everyone! Guess I've been too distracted with my own crap that's been overwhelming me lately, I really wasn't thinking. To me, every NLQ article or story is potentially triggering ~ so I think if I was going to start adding a trigger warning to posts that detail physical abuse, there should also be warnings for any post which describes emotional, verbal, spiritual abuse, etc. Maybe NLQ needs a site-wide trigger warning? Anyone wanna help me come up with a quick statement that I can post prominently on the home page?
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Post by coleslaw on Jul 17, 2010 12:31:26 GMT -5
How about "This blog contains personal stories by women who have been through some very, very tough times, and if you are an empathetic person, they will probably make you feel sad."
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Post by nikita on Jul 17, 2010 14:09:56 GMT -5
When I saw the title I certainly knew what was coming, it's such a common post-abuse response.
My take on this: I think that we don't need to envelop the site in bubble wrap for fear of triggering someone's personal landmines. The whole site is a trigger. We're triggering all over the place, it's part of the healing process. Sometimes those triggers are what helps you get in touch with something that you need touching in yourself to heal from it.
But in the personal stories posted on the site itself (not the forum posts): Due to the fact that many different people are going to be coming to the site and reading the stories and the extreme nature of sexual and physical abuse and it's aftermath, where the action of sexual or physical abuse is going to be described in a personal narrative, then a short 'warning' should be given at the very beginning of that narrative. So just in case a reader is not prepared psychologically to read it they can choose to skip that installment for the time being.
But IMO it shouldn't be taken any further than that.
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Post by chbernat on Jul 17, 2010 14:10:55 GMT -5
haha, Vyckie!
Hey girl, hang in there with your life. I don't know what's going on, but I do know He gives strength.
And sometimes the truth stings. Sometimes it offends. Sometimes it isn't pleasant.
Everyone's trigger is different. Its best to just try to be peaceable with all man kind, recognizing that we all have a life, we all have secrets, and we all have some sort of great pain and suffering. So no, I don't think you need a statement. The others can just take it or leave it, cuz we love you and think you are supercalifragilisticexpealidious!
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Post by asteli on Jul 17, 2010 15:13:18 GMT -5
"This site contains personal stories of spiritual and physical abuse which may be triggering for some readers."
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Post by nikita on Jul 17, 2010 16:12:00 GMT -5
Since my take on this is to not be too far-reaching in warning readers I would limit a warning to descriptions of physical or sexual abuse within a narrative story on the site. To that end, something like:
Warning: The following narrative contains descriptions of instances of [insert warning type here].
Types of warnings:
Domestic violence Physical abuse of children Rape Attempted rape Child molestation
Something like this would suffice I think. IMO doing more is like assuming the site needs to be a cottony womb protecting the delicate sensibilities of all readers at any time and I think there is something paternalistic and condescending about doing that. We're grown people and shouldn't need a warning label on life itself so that we don't have to be confronted with difficult subject matter. Where I think physical and sexual abuse differs a bit is that it is not a universal experience, it does severely affect the sufferer, and a person may be in the process of dealing with the aftermath while otherwise going on with their lives. So that seems like a fair thing to warn someone about.
The rest of it, no. IMHO if someone chooses to read stories of people leaving abusive religious systems/groups then they are going to take it upon themselves to understand that personal stories my contain unpleasantness that they may find upsetting. It's supposed to be upsetting. That's the whole point. That's why we left.
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Post by km on Jul 17, 2010 19:53:02 GMT -5
I agree that something simple and to the point works best.
Also, Cherylannhannah, it took me a couple of days to get around to finally reading this, but wow! You're a very good writer, and I'm excited about reading more installments. Thank you for telling your story here.
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