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Post by cherylannhannah on Jul 23, 2010 0:30:01 GMT -5
I wish I could find the pertinent quote, but I was directed by a pastor friend of mine to Calvin's commentaries on Deuteronomy 24:1-4 which is one of the passages that pertains to divorce. Calvin commented that it was a shame to a man that a wife would want a divorce due to his behavior towards her and because of the hardness of their hearts that divorce was given *because God never intended that women should live under tyranny their whole lives long.* I was so surprised to read this, or words to that effect, but Calvin took a much more practical view towards marriage than perhaps many people would believe.
My pastor friend, who is a conservative type presbyterian, told me that God gave divorce to the Church as a remedy for a number of ills that come up in a marriage. He then used the illustration of the concubine wife in Exodus 21:10, where if a man diminished the food, clothing and marital duties of his concubine wife, she was allowed to "go out from" or divorce him and he could not demand the price of her dowry back from her again. Reducing her food and clothing would have been a form of violation of the sixth commandment, which not only forbids the unjust taking of life, but also implies that life is to be preserved and protected. In this case, we can argue from the lesser to the greater. If a concubine wife had these rights, so did the fully dowered wife as well. Therefore, it isn't just adultery and desertion which are grounds for divorce in Scripture. In practice the Jews may have reserved the right of divorce to the man alone, but the Word of God actually allowed for women to initiate the proceedings though you have to use a bit of inductive logic to get there.
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Post by jemand on Jul 23, 2010 8:12:49 GMT -5
The three times thing is Islam. I remember a story that seemed quite ingenious to me on this note-- a muslim woman recently acquired a divorce by maintaining her husband said "I divorce you" three times in his sleep. He apparently had a history of talking in his sleep, and she was granted the divorce last I knew. She was the only one who'd heard the words, and while she in court said she didn't want to get divorced, but just was reporting what happened, I'm wondering if that's the actual dynamic or if she really wanted out.
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Post by coleslaw on Jul 23, 2010 10:00:05 GMT -5
I think it's interesting to look at the Jewish translations of Malachi 2:16, that Christians translate as God saying "I hate divorce". www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16220/showrashi/truegives a translation with Rashi's* comments, that takes it to mean that rather than keeping a wife for himself but treating her badly, a man should give her a divorce so that she is free to remarry: Other Jewish sources (see www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Malachi2.html) translate the verse more the way Christian sources do. I suspect the Hebrew is difficult to translate, given that scholars manage to come up with two practically opposite translations. *Rashi is the Rabbi Shlomo Yitzhaki (February 22, 1040 – July 13) a medieval French rabbi and author of the first comprehensive commentary on the Talmud.
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deep
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Post by deep on Jul 23, 2010 10:37:49 GMT -5
I laughed as I read this. Before I got to the part about Shirley, I thought, "When you get to the point where you truly wish a quick and painless death for your spouse, it's time to just go ahead and get the divorce."
My husband and I were both married previously. We both got to that point in our first marriages and we both initiated divorce. Truthfully, our marriage was been hard on both of us, but we have stuck together for 21 years and I have never wished that he would conveniently drop dead. (And the marriage has been a good one for the past several years and continues to get better and better.)
Vickie, I'm glad you ran into Shirley and I'm glad that you listened to her.
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Post by journey on Jul 23, 2010 13:27:36 GMT -5
Vyckie, This is SUCH a good post. Like you, I had no idea I could divorce. It never crossed my mind. Death did. That was something that was actually possible (that one of us would die in some tragic accident), but divorce was adamantly impossible, in my mind, and therefore did not occur to me until things were SO unbelievably bad (and even then, divorce only occured to me because of something someone else said, not through an idea that came from inside of me). I love how you word things in this post. Divorce can be a gift we give to our spouse, a release of blessing. I feel like that, towards my husband. I do not wish him destruction, even with all the crazy abuse. I honestly wish him a good life. I hope he gets the kind of help he needs. I hope he is surrounded by truly supportive people (who won't take his shit but will genuinely love him through it all). I wish him a good life. I just want his life to be as far from my life as possible. It's so much better that way. Divorce is also a release of blessing to our own selves. When I chose to divorce my abuser, I released myself to have my life back. I released myself to find my best happiness.
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Post by jael on Jul 24, 2010 6:07:31 GMT -5
I've read some stuff about Jesus instruction being more about protecting women. RBC Has a booklet titled "God's protection of women - When abuse is worse than divorce" that addresses it in detail. I haven't read it all, it's too much for me atm (I married a man who said he would rather kill himself - or me - before divorce... nice... so am just sticking with separated for now - tho in his eyes they are nearly the same thing!) eta the link: www.rbc.org/bible-study/discovery-series/bookletDetail.aspx?id=48072
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Post by coleslaw on Jul 24, 2010 9:59:55 GMT -5
I've read some stuff about Jesus instruction being more about protecting women. RBC Has a booklet titled "God's protection of women - When abuse is worse than divorce" that addresses it in detail. I haven't read it all, it's too much for me atm (I married a man who said he would rather kill himself - or me - before divorce... nice... so am just sticking with separated for now - tho in his eyes they are nearly the same thing!) eta the link: www.rbc.org/bible-study/discovery-series/bookletDetail.aspx?id=48072Jael, if you really think you are in danger, there are resources for abused women that you can turn to. I'd hate to see you turn into one more murder-suicide story. OTOH, my abusive ex used to say if he ever lost me, he'd kill himself. Instead, he moved on and married someone else after I divorced him. I joke to myself about the suicide statement being one more broken promise that he made me, but really, I think it's better that he is making someone else happy instead of making me miserable. I hope your hubby is just grandstanding, too.
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Post by littleblueheathen on Jul 24, 2010 10:30:45 GMT -5
Journey wrote:
"I wish him a good life. I just want his life to be as far from my life as possible. It's so much better that way."
Reminds me of something my mother used to say about difficult people: "May the good Lord bless and keep him/her - far away from me!"
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Post by xara on Jul 24, 2010 10:31:14 GMT -5
Divorce really can be a good thing. I was relieved when my mom divorced my dad. There was no more fighting. And mom quit drinking and smoking. Money was tight but we managed.
And the releasing of someone to find their best happiness is also a good thing. Even the individuals that I dislike the most, I wish no harm toward. I just want them out of my life and not harming others.
I tend to get along with most people but the few I do not, "I don't hate them. I wish them health and happiness - away from me and out of my life"
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Post by ambrosia on Jul 24, 2010 11:22:37 GMT -5
I came across this just now, doing a bit of catching up at The Guardian: Experience: I'm proud my mother left home tinyurl.com/2d6ewd2 Maybe if enough of these positive examples are presented often enough they can go some way to counteracting the vile and insidious propaganda of the patriarchy. There often is life and happiness after divorce - for all concerned. edit: tinyurl is having issues. The non-tiny version: www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jul/17/i-am-proud-my-mother-left-home
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Post by km on Jul 24, 2010 15:08:22 GMT -5
Divorce really can be a good thing. I was relieved when my mom divorced my dad. There was no more fighting. Oh yes, me too. So much, yes. On the day before my parents announced their separation, I had actually prepared a speech for cutting off contact with both of them for good.
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Post by jael on Jul 26, 2010 7:23:06 GMT -5
I've read some stuff about Jesus instruction being more about protecting women. RBC Has a booklet titled "God's protection of women - When abuse is worse than divorce" that addresses it in detail. I haven't read it all, it's too much for me atm (I married a man who said he would rather kill himself - or me - before divorce... nice... so am just sticking with separated for now - tho in his eyes they are nearly the same thing!) eta the link: www.rbc.org/bible-study/discovery-series/bookletDetail.aspx?id=48072Jael, if you really think you are in danger, there are resources for abused women that you can turn to. I'd hate to see you turn into one more murder-suicide story. OTOH, my abusive ex used to say if he ever lost me, he'd kill himself. Instead, he moved on and married someone else after I divorced him. I joke to myself about the suicide statement being one more broken promise that he made me, but really, I think it's better that he is making someone else happy instead of making me miserable. I hope your hubby is just grandstanding, too. Thanks coleslaw, we're good atm - he went for the play the victim card when I left rather than going nutso on me. It's not settled by any stretch - we've been separated 6 mths now, but I do feel safe for now. If things ramp up again I will take further steps, but was v careful when I left to keep me and the kids safe even though i thought i was overreacting (but then i always think i'm overreacting - years of emotional abuse will do that! ) - I didn't want to be one of the women (or my kids) who was killed/injured because she didn't take herself seriously enough.
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clogs
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Post by clogs on Jul 26, 2010 8:32:10 GMT -5
To Jael, would you consider checking the MOSAIC threat assessment tool online? It may help to give an objective assessment of risk from your estranged spouse. Caveat: if the test suggests you're not in danger, but your feelings say otherwise, trust your feelings.
Six months apart is still early, in my experience. My ex continued to stalk me for more than a year, and his violent acts escalated, I think because he was learning he could get away with public acts of aggression towards me. Despite my having a restraining order against him, the police did nothing about his repeated violations.
Having kids makes it much more difficult to keep safe. My ex used the kids to try to get me within his reach, and I thought he wouldn't try to do anything to me in front of the kids. Boy was I wrong. I'm lucky to be alive.
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Post by jael on Jul 26, 2010 21:03:04 GMT -5
No, I don't think it's necessary at this point, but thanks for pointing it out, looks useful. I don't really want to go into details, or try and justify, but we are safe, and I am being very careful.
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