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Post by km on Aug 4, 2010 13:48:56 GMT -5
Thank you--great clarification. That's a much more appropriate way to put it. Thanks, Hopewell.
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Post by madame on Aug 4, 2010 13:53:11 GMT -5
I remember listening to that sermon when someone linked to it for some other reason. When I reached the point where Voddie Baucham says what is quoted in that comment, I had to sit up (I was lying on the sofa) and rewind, to see if I had heard it correctly. Later on, someone linked to it for that reason, and many people said they had had a similar reaction. It is a very strange and incredibly ignorant thing to say.
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Post by dangermom on Aug 4, 2010 15:40:30 GMT -5
2. I can't help but feel like daughters are raised (not only in fundamentalism, but to some extent in broader Western culture as well) to be junior wives. I hated feeling like my mother's replacement, and I don't want to be replaced. Could you clarify how you feel this works in broader Western culture? Do you feel that's a true judgment or something that you tend to see because of your background? I was not raised fundamentalist and I'm having a hard time understanding exactly what you mean; certainly I cannot recall ever feeling like a junior wife to my dad (ew).
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Post by km on Aug 4, 2010 16:12:13 GMT -5
2. I can't help but feel like daughters are raised (not only in fundamentalism, but to some extent in broader Western culture as well) to be junior wives. I hated feeling like my mother's replacement, and I don't want to be replaced. Could you clarify how you feel this works in broader Western culture? Do you feel that's a true judgment or something that you tend to see because of your background? I was not raised fundamentalist and I'm having a hard time understanding exactly what you mean; certainly I cannot recall ever feeling like a junior wife to my dad (ew). I can't speak for Sierra, but I will say that my father behaved toward me in an emotionally incestuous way as well. He confided in me like a spouse, and told me all about the problems he had with my mother from the time I was a small child. He also did the, "you're the only one who understands me" thing with me--and did all these things well before I turned into an adult. I am not sure how generalizable this kind of behavior is, but I experienced similar discomfort with my father (even after he stopped being a fundamentalist). My father is narcissistic, though, and I suspect that it's at least generalizable to father-daughter relationships in which the father is narcissistic and sees the daughter as a Reflection of Himself rather than as a separate self.
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Post by andromeda on Aug 4, 2010 16:47:55 GMT -5
Could you clarify how you feel this works in broader Western culture? Do you feel that's a true judgment or something that you tend to see because of your background? I was not raised fundamentalist and I'm having a hard time understanding exactly what you mean; certainly I cannot recall ever feeling like a junior wife to my dad (ew). I can't speak for Sierra, but I will say that my father behaved toward me in an emotionally incestuous way as well. He confided in me like a spouse, and told me all about the problems he had with my mother from the time I was a small child. He also did the, "you're the only one who understands me" thing with me--and did all these things well before I turned into an adult. I am not sure how generalizable this kind of behavior is, but I experienced similar discomfort with my father (even after he stopped being a fundamentalist). My father is narcissistic, though, and I suspect that it's at least generalizable to father-daughter relationships in which the father is narcissistic and sees the daughter as a Reflection of Himself rather than as a separate self. This happened to me as well. My dad always dumped on me about issues in his marriage with my mom. Another bad moment was when I was about 10 and had intellectually impressed him somehow; he commented in front of my mother that he should have married me instead. I didn't even think at the time of how hurtful that must have been to her. I recall that I ended up making some kind of big rational argument about how if he hadn't married my mom, I wouldn't even be around for him to make the comment about. This was in a secular home. My dad was almost fanatically anti-religion at the time but was definitely narcissistic and saw me as kind of his idealized alter ego who was going to live out all the dreams he hadn't achieved. I remember feeling poleaxed when I first hear Alanis Morissette's "Perfect" when I was about seventeen.
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Post by Sierra on Aug 4, 2010 21:39:45 GMT -5
Andromeda and KM have nailed the type of relationship I had with my father as well. He definitely saw me as a fresh new extension of himself and also a possession. He also liked to detail (in front of my mother) how I was the more physically attractive of the two of us, and made the claim that as my father he had the right to see me naked (I was 13). Another time when we went out shopping he commented that other men would probably assume I was his girlfriend (like hell they would).
Anyway, here are some mainstream examples that I find creepy, as they appear to me to be only less directly threatening versions of my own experiences:
1. Father-daughter dates. The concept that a father models the type of boyfriend a girl should choose by acting like her boyfriend bothers me. I'm not against fathers and children (of both sexes) spending time together, but don't call it a date. The same goes for the mother-son relationship. I believe good relationships are modeled by the father and mother interacting with each other. My dad failed to realize that every time he ignored or made negative comments to my mother, I took them to heart (possibly more than she did). I also found "innocuous" things like my father buying me roses on Valentine's day, or referring to "my two girls" disturbing - I don't like the equating of spouses and children.
2. Relationships and weddings: I hate the idea that fathers must always "vet" potential boyfriends and initially approach them from a hostile perspective. Way to tell your daughter you don't trust her judgment, first of all. But there's also an element of "no man can replace me" to the dynamic. As an extreme example, my father once took me out to lunch to tell me that my boyfriend would probably abandon me for some hot chick once he got to grad school, and that he (my father) would be the only man I could count on. Walking down the aisle and the father-daughter wedding dance says to me that the two relationships are equivalent - that daddy has "passed the torch" to the husband.
I think the gist of the problem is that in our hypersexualized culture, fathers have a hard time relating healthily to adolescent daughters. In the effort to keep them involved in their daughters' lives, armchair psychologists and Christian leaders tell them that their primary responsibility toward their daughters is to ensure their proper romantic development. I never see anyone suggesting that fathers teach their daughters a skill, or go fishing with their daughters, or fix up something with their daughters - those are forms of "male" bonding, apparently. Everything relating to fathers and daughters is tinged with romance - dates, flowers, talks about boyfriends. Never is the father allowed to interact with his adolescent daughter as a child, or a successor, the way he would a son.
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Post by andromeda on Aug 4, 2010 23:36:45 GMT -5
Andromeda and KM have nailed the type of relationship I had with my father as well. He definitely saw me as a fresh new extension of himself and also a possession. He also liked to detail (in front of my mother) how I was the more physically attractive of the two of us, and made the claim that as my father he had the right to see me naked (I was 13). Another time when we went out shopping he commented that other men would probably assume I was his girlfriend (like hell they would). I got this too! I think sometimes people really did assume that, as I look nothing like my father and developed a bosom early. I'd get these odd nasty looks from people and he would explain--correctly or not--that people thought I was his GF. I was about 13-14 at the time and looked older due to the bosom and the fact that poverty=clothes not fitting properly so it was more emphasized than it might have been in properly sized clothing. I wonder if the sneering people were really just judging my fashion sense.
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Post by jemand on Aug 5, 2010 7:49:33 GMT -5
Well, my father wasn't narcissistic and didn't interpose himself into my dating/romantic relationships but actually did interact with me to teach skills such as photography, small engines, cars, his self-employed job, whatever I was interested in that he had experience with, etc.
However, when we were out, because of the age difference between me and my youngest sister and the fact that my dad looked young, I *did* get confused for his wife by strangers occasionally. When my dad wasn't around people would say stuff about teenage mothers, or assume my brother and I were teen parents. Sometimes strangers are assholes. It wasn't as damaging as what you describe, because I think that not being narcissistic meant my dad never promoted those ideas himself and so I didn't feel uncomfortable about my *family* hyper-sexualizing me, I just didn't like dealing with strangers as much.
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Post by andromeda on Aug 5, 2010 8:23:22 GMT -5
Well, my father wasn't narcissistic and didn't interpose himself into my dating/romantic relationships but actually did interact with me to teach skills such as photography, small engines, cars, his self-employed job, whatever I was interested in that he had experience with, etc. Unfortunately, in our household it wasn't much better if Dad did interact with us about hobbies, etc. He had a knack for turning everything into a regimen. I liked reading? Well, he would get it into his head that I should read more classics and then he'd quiz me about them. I liked bicycling? I should do a certain number of laps up and down the street. Sucked the fun right out of anything. I think maybe this is another characteristic of this type of controlling parenting.
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Post by km on Aug 5, 2010 8:44:02 GMT -5
Sierra and andromeda: I have been told by counselors that I am probably lucky that I didn't actually experience sexual abuse by my father, given the way that he treated me. But I also didn't have some of the more explicitly sexualized interactions that you both talk about, and he never imposed himself on my romantic relationships. Oh, he certainly never had any understanding of healthy familial boundaries, but I am fortunate that at least he didn't break these.
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Post by nikita on Aug 5, 2010 13:27:08 GMT -5
Ok, the Islamic thing was misunderstood. I should have mentioned the public beatings, stonings, etc. No offense to Islamic parents who are, of course, well intentioned. Seriously--no offense meant. I don't mean to pick on you hopewell. I'm using your example here, though, 'cause you seem to roll with the punches and not take things personally, so I just wanna say... For some time, I have noticed that a lot of people here seem comfortable saying very derogatory things about Islam. I think this has to do with (1) greater cultural responses to 9/11 in the Western world as well as (2) QF cultural backgrounds that saw Islam in highly demonizing ways. I have seen this happen dozens of times now, so I really am not picking on Hopewell in particular. But see... We do make an effort to make sure that evangelical Christians feel welcome here, and I don't have a problem with that. I think it's great. But I really wish we weren't so comfortable as a group making derisive statements about Muslims in general. This doesn't affect me personally except inasmuch as I've spent a considerable amount of time in one Muslim country and count many Muslims as good friends. I think we are generally very good about religious tolerance here (especially when it comes to atheism, pagansim, and various strains of Christianity), but it would mean a lot to me if we could make such an effort when it comes to Islam. One way to help would be to refer to "radical Islam" when we're talking about groups like the Taliban. I guess that's really all I'm asking--that we stop engaging in offensive, generalizing stereotypes about Muslims. Also, general recognition that the Muslim world is just as diverse as the Christian would would go far--there are many Muslim feminists and liberals just as there are Christians. Thanks KM, I think this is an extremely important point. The strength of this site and this forum is that everyone is welcome and hopefully feels comfortable sharing, no matter their background or current belief system or lack thereof. That includes those who embrace Islam.
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valsa
New Member
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Post by valsa on Aug 5, 2010 15:54:26 GMT -5
Anyway, here are some mainstream examples that I find creepy, as they appear to me to be only less directly threatening versions of my own experiences: I'm not sure how "mainstream" I would consider those examples. I've never actually heard of a father-daughter date, though I have heard of (and attended) a father-daughter dance, which is nothing like a date. Also, a father vetting his daughter's fiancé is an archaic practice that's pretty much unheard of around my neck of the woods anymore (which isn't all that progressive of an area) While, typically, every child wants their parents' approval regarding their future spouse, it's no longer common for a man to go to his girlfriend's father to ask for her hand. I've seen a lot more women who say something like that is grounds for breaking up with a guy, than who thought that is was acceptable.
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Post by kisekileia on Aug 5, 2010 17:36:16 GMT -5
I wasn't familiar with the term "tomato staking", so I took a look at the website Hopewell linked that explained it. Although I found the level of control-freakishness involved in tomato staking quite disturbing, what upset me the most was that often, the children described as "difficult" were showing clear symptoms of ADHD. Those kids don't need to have their parents watching and controlling their every move--they need meds, family therapy to help the parents and the child manage the symptoms, and a non-punitive approach to dealing with ADHD-linked behaviours.
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Post by cherylannhannah on Aug 5, 2010 19:34:16 GMT -5
You know, I'm thinking that maybe one of the unintended effects of training your children into unquestioning obedience is to set them up for being prey to cults, control freaks, and abusive partners.
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Post by usotsuki on Aug 5, 2010 20:46:07 GMT -5
Unintended? Seems pretty intentional to me.
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Post by Sierra on Aug 5, 2010 21:05:03 GMT -5
Anyway, here are some mainstream examples that I find creepy, as they appear to me to be only less directly threatening versions of my own experiences: I'm not sure how "mainstream" I would consider those examples. I've never actually heard of a father-daughter date, though I have heard of (and attended) a father-daughter dance, which is nothing like a date. Also, a father vetting his daughter's fiancé is an archaic practice that's pretty much unheard of around my neck of the woods anymore (which isn't all that progressive of an area) While, typically, every child wants their parents' approval regarding their future spouse, it's no longer common for a man to go to his girlfriend's father to ask for her hand. I've seen a lot more women who say something like that is grounds for breaking up with a guy, than who thought that is was acceptable. My father was not a fundamentalist (he was stridently against it), so I'm inclined to see his views as mainstream, albeit very conservative and "old-fashioned." And the asking for her hand business isn't what I was talking about, it was more the "I need to sit down with the boy and ask him what his intentions are before I allow my daughter to marry him" meme.
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Post by dangermom on Aug 5, 2010 23:05:45 GMT -5
Anyway, here are some mainstream examples that I find creepy, as they appear to me to be only less directly threatening versions of my own experiences: [snip] Thanks for your thoughts. I can see your reasoning, but I'm not sure how widespread those things are. Maybe I had an unusual upbringing, I don't know. (Even the wedding part--in my religion, weddings don't involve aisle walks or giving away the bride.) I remember in grad school a fellow student got engaged and told about how her fiance had asked her dad for her hand. My reaction was "What if he said no?" That is, they'd been living together for over a year, and they were getting married--what does that question even mean when you already have your plans made? And what would they have done if he said no? She, for her part, was confused by my confusion and explained that it was a gesture of respect more than anything else. (I'm afraid I called my parents up at 2am to announce that I was engaged, and my dad said "That's great! Who to?" Though he knew really. It never occurred to either of us to ask anyone's permission.)
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valsa
New Member
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Post by valsa on Aug 6, 2010 0:41:05 GMT -5
My father was not a fundamentalist (he was stridently against it), so I'm inclined to see his views as mainstream, albeit very conservative and "old-fashioned." And the asking for her hand business isn't what I was talking about, it was more the "I need to sit down with the boy and ask him what his intentions are before I allow my daughter to marry him" meme. This is just my personal experience, but I've known even less fathers who’ve interviewed their daughter's fiancés about their intentions than I do fiancés who’ve asked the father for his daughter's hand. It's just... not done. Unless the girl's about 16, of course (and even then, it’s “boyfriend”, not “fiancé”) Maybe that’s normal is very conservative areas but I still don’t think it’s what you’d call “mainstream”.
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Post by nikita on Aug 6, 2010 1:03:26 GMT -5
Every time this subject comes up I am reminded of the Bill Cosby show when he was going on about how it's the father's job to scare the boyfriends, all growly and intimidating like Old Yeller. And his tv wife says calmly to him: 'They shot Old Yeller.'
Personally, I think it's an anachronism that is sweet in the telling of it and less so in the living of it. When it's just a 'Oh Dad!' formality that has no real teeth to it and no one is traumatized it's one thing, but when your dad is a strict control freak fundamentalist who actually wants to run your whole life and pick your future mate it gets less funny real fast. And I think that's how we as women perceive it too. If our lives have been more the latter than the former such things trigger our defenses and activate our launch sequences faster than if we weren't sensitized to over-involvement by our fathers.
My own dad was very very strict and made my sisters' dating lives terrible but he died when I was fourteen so I never experienced any of that. The idea of a father being protective (to a point) doesn't alarm me, in fact I kind of find it comforting. But I never had that at all. My sisters would tell you a very different tale, however.
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Post by MoonlitNight on Aug 6, 2010 13:59:03 GMT -5
Thank goodness that my father never did that kind of emotionally incestuous stuff to me. What I did get was the junior-housekeeper treatment, where clearly children, who were mostly there to annoy parents, were supposed to make up for their existence by doing chores of the parents' choice. For some reason this never involved any useful skills, but only boring, repetitive and sometimes slightly creepy physical labour, such as pairing my father's socks and folding his underwear, or picking rocks out of the garden.
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Post by usotsuki on Aug 6, 2010 14:03:45 GMT -5
Now *that* I'm familiar with.
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maicde
Junior Member
Posts: 69
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Post by maicde on Aug 7, 2010 12:49:49 GMT -5
"Dying to one's self"? Oh, yeah, I've heard that phrase once or twice or maybe a hundred times from a board I used to post on. This poor woman with a super-large family was/is apparently married to some miserable man who is always depressed (and now unemployed due to the bad economy). She's since had a hysterectomy and has lightened up a bit and become a bit happier. I haven't heard her mention dying to herself for a while now. Even her husband seems less miserable these days. Maybe they both feel less prone to die to themselves now that there's no more pressure to keep the pregnancies going and tow the QF line. It's like a weight has been lifted off both of their shoulders.
As for "helpmeet" - every time I hear that word I want to barf. There's nothing wrong with wives helping husbands or vice versa, what is wrong is that the people who use the word "helpmeet" are people with an agenda. My advice to anyone who hears the word "helpmeet" coming out of someone's mouth is to turn and run the other way! Run, run, run like your life depends on it because in all liklihood, it might. If you're running around with people who use the word, "helpmeet", you might be looking at getting entrenched in a system that will suck the life out of your mind, body, spirit and soul. Better forewarned than not. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Aug 10, 2010 12:19:42 GMT -5
I received an awesome suggestion from a Twitter follower ~ to live-tweet TLC's Duggar show, 19 & Counting, at 8 pm central time. If you have a Twitter account, be sure to follow @noquivering: twitter.com/NoQuiveringI haven't watched the Duggars since they were at "16 and Counting" ~ so it should be interesting.
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