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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Aug 23, 2010 7:06:26 GMT -5
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Post by jillrhudybarrett on Aug 23, 2010 9:04:37 GMT -5
I got as far as the Burberry coat before becoming ill and having to leave the story for a while. I feel quite sure that a God who doesn't want His child to have a Burberry coat is not worth worshiping at all. I prayed just now and the Spirit is telling me something like this would very much reflect my spiritual condition. us.burberry.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4073479&cp=3965371.3991485.4390330&parentPage=familyand, if I had $2400 in spare change, I, myself personally, am well worth it. The more I think about what we've all been through, the more it all starts sounding like a throwback to the Dark Ages. Women as second class citizens, self-loathing and penance, extreme asceticism. We became like nuns, except that we were constantly pregnant. I don't care for fakey female evangelists who ride around in bazillion dollar jets, but as long as we're getting the money to acquire the best by honest labor, don't we deserve the best? The key to the story is what Shelley says about the sandals: "They made me feel so special." What is wrong with that? I remember how I used to skulk into an $8 hair cutting place (like McDonald's for hair) and walk out with my hair still wet because styling cost extra. And I used to think feminists were ugly and unfeminine. Consider the lilies of the field. They look more like that Burberry coat than like your average QF prairie muffin in a denim jumper and sensible shoes. Jill
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Post by amyrose on Aug 23, 2010 9:35:56 GMT -5
I want that coat!
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Aug 23, 2010 9:37:29 GMT -5
I got as far as the Burberry coat before becoming ill and having to leave the story for a while. I feel quite sure that a God who doesn't want His child to have a Burberry coat is not worth worshiping at all. I prayed just now and the Spirit is telling me something like this would very much reflect my spiritual condition. I'm with you, Jill! Since leaving the self-abnegating Quiverfull mindset, I find ways to indulge myself all the time ~ and yes, I do believe that I am worth it. My favorite indulgence is actually inexpensive ~ it involves John reading to me while I give myself a totally awesome manicure. I keep my nails nice ~ and always have them painted ~ complete with glitter, nail art and bling. It's a creative outlet for me ~ and I'm always pleased with the coolness of my nails! I still have to be thrifty because ~ single mom, 5 (6 if you count Berea coming home to sleep every night even though she has her own mouse-infested apartment) kids at home ~ but I love to dress up, make-up, fuss over my hair ~ wear lots of jewelry, etc. I feel good about myself now ~ and I don't feel guilty, selfish, vain or evil about feeling good about myself. Hooray.
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Post by Sierra on Aug 23, 2010 11:37:18 GMT -5
Wow, this reminds me so much of my mother's transformation in the Message. She would say that the Lord had taken away her desire to paint her face/nails, cut her hair, or wear form-fitting clothing. He had taken away her desire to be alluring to men. Except that I don't think she had ever dressed with the idea in mind that she wanted to be alluring to men. Pretty clothes just made her feel happy. Now she never buys anything outside of a thrift store. It makes me sad, because it tells me, "I am not worth more than 50 cents" when she refuses to spend more than that to clothe herself. And by extension, it told me, as a young daughter, that mothers are not worth more than 50 cents - and made me want never to be one.
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Post by livingforeternity on Aug 23, 2010 13:04:37 GMT -5
The one thing that stood out to me was the part about being drawn into something ugly. I recently got a newsletter from our homsechool group about a family named the Maxwells coming to town. When I saw those awful matching jumpers, green shirts, and khakis I had this overwhelming anger just rise up in me. I was so suprised. Just a few years ago I would have said I wish my kids would be so well mannered and not rebellious. I thank God He has shown me His truth. I only regret I didn't learn sooner as my aquaintance with this lifestyle has cost me my relationship with my son. I am praying that somehow God can redeem this relationship.
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Post by ShellyC on Aug 23, 2010 14:21:19 GMT -5
I agree, it really should not matter how one is dressed. My Burberry coat was the classic style trench with the Nova plaid lining...(Hey, I still have my Nova-Plaid Burberry head band.) ;D What is $40 bucks for a headband? I think anytime that ones "Religion" prioritizes over ANY relationship....it is wrong. It is all about Relationship...regardless of their religion. My husband always tells me this catchy little phrase... If YOUR God hates the same people that you do...you are serving a false God. It kinda stops me in my tracks any time the old judgement thing comes into my mind! Given... God loves the World and his creation.
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maicde
Junior Member
Posts: 69
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Post by maicde on Aug 23, 2010 21:04:25 GMT -5
I got as far as the Burberry coat before becoming ill and having to leave the story for a while. I feel quite sure that a God who doesn't want His child to have a Burberry coat is not worth worshiping at all. I prayed just now and the Spirit is telling me something like this would very much reflect my spiritual condition. us.burberry.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4073479&cp=3965371.3991485.4390330&parentPage=familyand, if I had $2400 in spare change, I, myself personally, am well worth it. The more I think about what we've all been through, the more it all starts sounding like a throwback to the Dark Ages. Women as second class citizens, self-loathing and penance, extreme asceticism. We became like nuns, except that we were constantly pregnant. I don't care for fakey female evangelists who ride around in bazillion dollar jets, but as long as we're getting the money to acquire the best by honest labor, don't we deserve the best? The key to the story is what Shelley says about the sandals: "They made me feel so special." What is wrong with that? I remember how I used to skulk into an $8 hair cutting place (like McDonald's for hair) and walk out with my hair still wet because styling cost extra. And I used to think feminists were ugly and unfeminine. Consider the lilies of the field. They look more like that Burberry coat than like your average QF prairie muffin in a denim jumper and sensible shoes. Jill Right on, Jill! Also, I enjoyed reading the stories from the other posters too; I can relate SO much! Bettone, hang in there with your son. Healing takes time...for both of you. Hope and love live eternally. Wishing you the utmost best.
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jo
Junior Member
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Post by jo on Aug 23, 2010 22:29:11 GMT -5
I STILL struggle with taking care of ME. Seriously, money is more than tight right now, and will be until next summer at least. Yet I could find a way to do a few things just for me and the old guilt comes up EVERYTIME I need to take care of ME.
For my birthday this year, my husband and my friends gave me gift cards. Well, my husband gave me a night alone a hotel--the first since I became a mother. But, he also gave me gift cards. Everyone knew me well enough to know that if they gave me anything else, it wouldn't go to ME but to the kids.
The worst part? I still have the bookstore gift card in my wallet. It was easy to spend the Starbucks card cause I like coffee and cannot justify buying the coffee right now. To spend the bookstore card, I have to go to the store, I have to browse, I have to choose something for ME and then purchase it. Having just done that with a Hobby Lobby card and the Starbucks card, I expect it will be at least a month before I can work up the courage to do it again.
How stupid is that? Its just SOO ingrained in me that I still battle it.
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Post by arietty on Aug 23, 2010 23:00:30 GMT -5
I am wondering if Shelly's revelation about her coat was less about self-abnegation and more about realizing she had been using expensive items to fulfill an emptiness and that she now no longer needs expensive items to do that. I'm thinking Cecelia was kind of like the coat.. she is going to cost a LOT (personally), she looks GREAT, and she promises that you will BE fantastic if you just buy into the image. Shelly is now pretty much over the idea that you can buy into an image to make yourself a better person, though she does look back wistfully from time to time.
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Post by hopewell on Aug 24, 2010 10:33:11 GMT -5
I"m glad you were able to find the truth--that God loves us as we are. I have my fingers crossed that dear Celia was left high and dry when hubby found a better model or that two of her kids were caught in a drug bust... bad of me, but! lol
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Post by airlie808 on Aug 24, 2010 14:26:46 GMT -5
I am wondering if Shelly's revelation about her coat was less about self-abnegation and more about realizing she had been using expensive items to fulfill an emptiness and that she now no longer needs expensive items to do that. I'm thinking Cecelia was kind of like the coat.. she is going to cost a LOT (personally), she looks GREAT, and she promises that you will BE fantastic if you just buy into the image. Shelly is now pretty much over the idea that you can buy into an image to make yourself a better person, though she does look back wistfully from time to time. This was how I took it. Shelly realized that she didn't need certain clothes or Cecelia's "system" in order to be herself. She became content and free in her relationship with God. That's an important lesson, isn't it?
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Post by madame on Aug 24, 2010 14:30:25 GMT -5
I am wondering if Shelly's revelation about her coat was less about self-abnegation and more about realizing she had been using expensive items to fulfill an emptiness and that she now no longer needs expensive items to do that. I'm thinking Cecelia was kind of like the coat.. she is going to cost a LOT (personally), she looks GREAT, and she promises that you will BE fantastic if you just buy into the image. Shelly is now pretty much over the idea that you can buy into an image to make yourself a better person, though she does look back wistfully from time to time. I hadn't thought about that. It's a very good point. Now I can't wait to hear what happened when she called Cecilia!
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Post by madame on Aug 24, 2010 14:41:55 GMT -5
Since leaving the self-abnegating Quiverfull mindset, I find ways to indulge myself all the time ~ and yes, I do believe that I am worth it. My favorite indulgence is actually inexpensive ~ it involves John reading to me while I give myself a totally awesome manicure. I keep my nails nice ~ and always have them painted ~ complete with glitter, nail art and bling. It's a creative outlet for me ~ and I'm always pleased with the coolness of my nails! I still have to be thrifty because ~ single mom, 5 (6 if you count Berea coming home to sleep every night even though she has her own mouse-infested apartment) kids at home ~ but I love to dress up, make-up, fuss over my hair ~ wear lots of jewelry, etc. I feel good about myself now ~ and I don't feel guilty, selfish, vain or evil about feeling good about myself. Hooray. Vyckie, Good for you!!!! I wonder how many women in the QF world are battling in secret with eating disorders, especially bulimia or compulsive overeating. One exercise you'll find in every self-help book for EDs is to do something nice for yourself, something you enjoy, every day, if possible. If you take care of yourself and treat yourself like you treat your friends, you are less likely to scoff down that half a gallon of cheap ice-cream, or finish the food on your kids plates, or shove down your feelings with the rest of the half-burnt chocolate chip cookies. If you respect yourself, you will want to care for yourself and you won't abuse your body. QF moms are encouraged to abuse their bodies, give up everything that is considered "vanity", dress "modestly", live up to certain (unattainable) standards etc.... All stuff that, IMO, can lead to seeking comfort in the only pleasure they may have left: food. And then they are told that they ought to stay attractive for their husbands. You just can't win in that situation! Ah well... very off topic, but the whole talk about EDs on the other thread has got me thinking!
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Post by Sierra on Aug 24, 2010 15:21:08 GMT -5
Madame, I have been nodding along with just about everything you've said on the subject of EDs before, so I wanted to add this:
One of my most effective strategies for combating my ED is to say to myself, aloud when necessary, "I am not a human trash can." I do not have to hide in a bathroom and scarf down a box of cheap cookies to be satisfied. I'm worth better than that. This is in direct opposition to what I was taught as a teen, namely Branham's assertion that "ungodly" women weren't even people but "sex exposals" (i.e. semen dispensers - Branham meant to say "disposal" but goofed the prefix).
I wasn't sure if Shelly meant to emphasize her own turn away from material interests as a positive outcome, but it made me cringe because it's been taken so far afield by my own mother. She utterly devalues herself and refuses to spend money that isn't directed toward others. I don't think that's healthy at all. It sounds like Shelly is in a much more moderate place, and that's good. Indeed, if expensive clothes were a crutch then it's good to be rid of the urge to compulsively shop. But I don't think it's good to demonize pampering, because we all need to recharge our batteries and feel special sometimes.
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Post by ShellyC on Aug 24, 2010 15:37:40 GMT -5
I am wondering if Shelly's revelation about her coat was less about self-abnegation and more about realizing she had been using expensive items to fulfill an emptiness and that she now no longer needs expensive items to do that. I'm thinking Cecelia was kind of like the coat.. she is going to cost a LOT (personally), she looks GREAT, and she promises that you will BE fantastic if you just buy into the image. Shelly is now pretty much over the idea that you can buy into an image to make yourself a better person, though she does look back wistfully from time to time. YES!, this is where I was at. However, that was a few years ago, and I do feel like I have found my "happy place" sort of speak today..While I would never go out and spend $400 dollars on a hand bag...
I would treat myself to a $40 dollar one. I do not feel guilty. I suppose I would feel guilty if one of my kids needed new shoes, and I spent the money on a new handbag. I do still think of my kids before myself. I think this is a good unselfish thing. Kwim? I feel like I have evolved into the person God has created me to be. I suppose it takes allot to go through these things, and not lose your faith. I think that when we have a warped view, and baggage of what the world tells us, we can, and do lose allot. I think in that respect, it is good to tune everyone out, in order to not have poutside influences cramming their beliefs down your throats.
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Post by krwordgazer on Aug 24, 2010 22:56:15 GMT -5
I agree, Shelley. I don't need a Burberry coat to feel special, but that doesn't mean I don't deserve one or shouldn't buy one when we can afford it. What a cliff-hanger! I'm on the edge of my seat to learn what Cecelia said when you finally did call her!
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Post by cindy on Aug 25, 2010 13:52:28 GMT -5
Ah, patriarchy and QF are so rife and ripe with the shame-existence bind!
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Post by coleslaw on Aug 25, 2010 14:21:04 GMT -5
My standard for deciding whether to buy something is that for every amount I spend I have to be that many dollars worth of happy. I have never seen a purse that would make me $200 worth of happy, let alone $400 dollars worth of happy, but I do own one that makes me $100 worth of happy. I have no idea how to explain how I measure dollars worth of happy, either, I just know that when I am tempted to make an impulse buy I ask myself, "Will this really make me $X worth of happy?" and a lot of times the answer is "no". When it is "yes", and I have the money, I spend it without a second thought. Works for me.
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Post by cindy on Aug 25, 2010 14:39:23 GMT -5
Purses are the toughest things for me, even though they are used as hard as shoes sometimes.
I actually did the math and figured out that those $100 purses usually last much longer and hold up better than the cheapie ones, and I end up spending far less money anyway when I just buy the finer one that I want anyway. The one I splurged on and paid $80 bucks for in '87 lasted until '2003. The $150 one I bough at Dillards in 2003 needs a good conditioning every so often, but I expect it to last at least another 15 years!
I went through a stage of thinking that I was only worth the dregs and leftovers. My exit counselor tells the saga of a woman whom she counseled who said that she understood the cultic nature of her former group when she attended recovery classes. About a year later, that woman showed up on my counselor's door in tears and panic.
The woman went to buy curtains, and while she was in her group, there was always only one choice at any given time, though choices may have seemed endless: SHE HAD TO BUY THE CHEAPEST! After being out of the group and after some time, when she went to exercise her own free will in such a concrete way, she suddenly realized just how pervasive the thinking had been for her. She even left the cult pick out her curtains, whether she had the money for them or not. When she realized she had choices and that she really could choose herself, it produced some initial anxiety for her.
As Shelly does, I think she quickly enjoyed the good feeling of self-love and self-care in balance with responsibility, free from the group think and what others would say. It really is wonderful!
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Post by km on Aug 25, 2010 16:40:59 GMT -5
As Shelly does, I think she quickly enjoyed the good feeling of self-love and self-care in balance with responsibility, free from the group think and what others would say. It really is wonderful! Yeah... I guess I would just note that this is a very middle-/upper-class dilemma to have, and, well, times are tough... Many of us can't afford much more than the dregs, and this has nothing to do with not loving ourselves enough. ETA: Of course, not wanting to disparage the notion of doing something to make oneself happy after coming out of a lifestyle of deprivation and self-sacrifice... I just... Well, I know I'm not the only one struggling, and it seemed important to point this out.
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Post by liltwinstar on Aug 25, 2010 17:28:01 GMT -5
I totally understand what you mean, km. I think it has more to do with attitude than acutal money, though. While I wouldn't go out and spend $200 on a handbag, I do give myself "permission" to relax , to read books I enjoy even if those books come from the library, and to get myself little luxuries as I can afford them, such as nice makeup or even a shopping "spree" at Goodwill.
In the darkest days of my fundamentalism, even things like shaving my legs or washing my hair seemed frivolous. Reading something other than "spiritual" books was just waste of time. We were supposed to "redeem the time" so relaxation was pretty much out unless we were actually sleeping. So, for me, it's more about being able to respect my own needs, time, and feelings, rather than being able to buy myself stuff.
Seems like a lot of the QF/fundamentalist women I knew didn't even give themselves permission to eat food they liked - they either make their husband's favorite food, or they made kid food. Some of them had hairstyles they didn't like because "it's easier with the kids." Although this might be more of a general "mom thing" than a specifically "QF thing, " having a bunch of kids certainly didn't help, I'm sure.
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Post by km on Aug 25, 2010 19:13:30 GMT -5
I totally understand what you mean, km. I think it has more to do with attitude than acutal money, though. While I wouldn't go out and spend $200 on a handbag, I do give myself "permission" to relax , to read books I enjoy even if those books come from the library, and to get myself little luxuries as I can afford them, such as nice makeup or even a shopping "spree" at Goodwill. In the darkest days of my fundamentalism, even things like shaving my legs or washing my hair seemed frivolous. Reading something other than "spiritual" books was just waste of time. We were supposed to "redeem the time" so relaxation was pretty much out unless we were actually sleeping. So, for me, it's more about being able to respect my own needs, time, and feelings, rather than being able to buy myself stuff. Seems like a lot of the QF/fundamentalist women I knew didn't even give themselves permission to eat food they liked - they either make their husband's favorite food, or they made kid food. Some of them had hairstyles they didn't like because "it's easier with the kids." Although this might be more of a general "mom thing" than a specifically "QF thing, " having a bunch of kids certainly didn't help, I'm sure. This makes sense.
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Post by cindy on Aug 25, 2010 21:03:50 GMT -5
Frankly, I'd still be carrying my old purse if my mother had not given me the gift certificate with "For a New Purse" on it because she thought my old one was horrible!
And prices at thrift stores are not all they used to be! I will only go on the 5/$5 day on a Friday anymore.
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Post by fabucat on Aug 25, 2010 21:44:38 GMT -5
As Shelly does, I think she quickly enjoyed the good feeling of self-love and self-care in balance with responsibility, free from the group think and what others would say. It really is wonderful! Yeah... I guess I would just note that this is a very middle-/upper-class dilemma to have, and, well, times are tough... Many of us can't afford much more than the dregs, and this has nothing to do with not loving ourselves enough. ETA: Of course, not wanting to disparage the notion of doing something to make oneself happy after coming out of a lifestyle of deprivation and self-sacrifice... I just... Well, I know I'm not the only one struggling, and it seemed important to point this out. Sometimes, though, the best things in life are free, or cheap. You can indulge yourself by taking a nice warm bath. The library and Goodwill are great sources for free or cheap books. Also, go to a consignment store in an upper class area. Those women only wear a designer dress once and then sell it! You get it for relatively cheap.
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