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Post by MoonlitNight on Sept 2, 2010 0:11:50 GMT -5
Wow, was that ever an effective-but-not-so-intended devil's advocacy post on my part. And then people went and made a bunch of my points for me, the ones that I was not doing so well on, like what nasty stuff have the Duggar girls been fed compared to mainstream culture. As for the points on what "normal American teen girls" go through, I clearly botched it. It's been about 10 years since I was a teen, and I never lived through a lot of what I was talking about. I was extrapolating from my own experience and stitching things together from what I've heard or read from others. So, I reveal my ignorance! - I'm not Quiverful nor ever was -- my parents are completely secular and mostly liberal.
- I have never read Above Rubies and the like, and so did not know that the Christian media was just as bad about pushing norms and products as secular magazines are.
- I was never in the kind of typical, popular, and perhaps mythical "normal girls" crowd I was trying to contrast the Duggars with -- I was and still am one of the geeky bookworms looking on from the outside. It used to be with envy, and now it's mostly with bewilderment.
- I've never been raped or harassed, but I know at least three friends who were, maybe more, and they tell me it's pretty darn common. However, my personal experience is all of gentlemen who take no for an answer, promptly.
- All the teenage boys I knew were geeks too, which meant that sometimes they bored my socks off, and needed a clue-by-four, but they were always nice to girls. Other women I know and trust keep telling me that jerk men exist. I rarely met them then or now.
- If there is one thing my parents happily gave me in spades, it was critical thinking skills.
Now, the beauty magazines and fashion industry making women feel worthless, that is personal experience. I hate beauty magazines -- I don't have that much time or money for my appearance, and my skin hates makeup -- but they still make me feel inferior when I read them, because they remind me of when I was dressed in my mother's choice of rummage sale and homemade clothes, my mother's choice of glasses, hair that had never met a competent let alone professional cut in its life, and skin problems that never stopped. All the other girls were much prettier and better dressed, and never ever hesitated to rub my nose in it. And today when I buy clothes, I am constantly reminded that I should not be short, or have wide feet, or have so big a bust, or a small waist, or round hips, and certainly should not have my heavily muscled legs. The fashion industry wants me to either be thin, or be a blob with no waist. The kind of extremely curvy curves I have are not allowed.
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Post by tapati on Sept 2, 2010 0:45:14 GMT -5
Let's reframe that:
Fanaticism will take you farther than you want to go, keep you longer than you want to stay, and cost you more than you want to pay.
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Post by MoonlitNight on Sept 2, 2010 1:10:38 GMT -5
Bronwyn, "- a part of your life that you want to spend on equal parts fun and doing something cool and real is regulated by others such that you can't get enough of either." I'm not sure I understand this point. Can you explain it to me? I should have taken a lot longer with that one, but it would have sidetracked things so I kept it short. I have a bit of a pet theory about why teens are often rebellious and sometimes shallow, and it's one that Paul Graham has also explained pretty well at paulgraham.com/nerds.html. Up until about a century ago, it was pretty common for people in their mid to late teens to have real jobs and be helping support their families. I am not saying this was all kittens and roses, but there is significant satisfaction in work that is needed and has clearly visible benefits in the real world. Contrast this with today, where it's not uncommon for teens to be stuck in school until their early twenties, and they're under the thumbs of parents and teachers until the last 4 years or so of it. Often they are learning stuff that is rote, boring, and not obviously applicable to the real world. When they have original ideas and desires, it's not that uncommon for those ideas and desires to be dismissed or pushed aside by the adults in their lives as being wrong, unattainable, or unworthy. We are not all lucky enough to have supportive parents and teachers. So you have a situation where at least some people are trapped doing stuff they dislike for about half their waking hours 5 days a week. Depending on family and/or money pressures, they may not get a chance to reach for what they would love to do, or even to figure out what it is. People in their teens and early twenties are so often on fire to do something big, something worthwhile, something that changes the world, and what do we often do with them? Keep them penned up doing mostly-pointless things* they don't care about so that they aren't running around getting in trouble. The tradeoff is that we often keep them from doing marvellous things. This isn't so for ALL teens, but it's been so for enough of them that it is a cultural trope with pretty strong resonance, and has been for a few decades now. What most of us WANT to do is something cool, something we enjoy, that has real benefits for ourselves and others. Something that makes a tangible, positive difference in the world while earning us a living. Too many of us are denied that satisfaction for too long, and teens are especially likely to be denied it, because they don't have the qualifications yet. * Education is not pointless, but it's really hard to genuinely educate someone to do original, creative thinking in a field that they don't even like but are studying for the money or because Dad said "my kid's going to be a ________." Spending time and money on a subject you don't enjoy IS a waste compared to spending it on one you love. Most of us enjoy enough different things to make a livelihood out of something in the list, but in my limited experience North America doesn't do so well at helping young people find the right ones for them. So that was one half. The other half was that teens want to go out, have fun, and experiment. They want to try things and learn for themselves what they like and believe and so on. They want to have adventures. Often teens are prevented from having adventures and freedoms, sometimes for good reasons, sometimes for bad. What's an adventure? Travel. Sex. Friends your parents don't approve of. Drinking, drugs, and altered states of consciousness. Skydiving. Going out all night to see a band or just to have fun. Activism and/or politics. A project with real impact on the world, like having a start-up company. Sure, some teens get to do those things, but how many are encouraged to try most of them? I was kept on a fairly tight leash myself, and I was pretty unhappy and difficult to live with as a result. Teens have a lot of energy, and if you don't let them put it into doing something real and cool, and having adventures, they're likely to be frustrated. Maybe they'll rebel. Maybe you'll break their spirit. Maybe they'll throw all their energy into something that they can do with your approval or without attracting your notice. Maybe they'll distract themselves from their unhappiness with frivolous pursuits. However it comes out, I'm pretty sure that keeping teens where adults want them doing what adults tell them to regardless of what the teens want is an easy road to resentment. We could do much, much better with all that energy than to stifle it. So, all you parents who have been posting about how you support your kids and they're great? That's wonderful, and I wish there were more of you. We could use them.
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kathe
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Post by kathe on Sept 2, 2010 2:31:32 GMT -5
Thanks That's what my kids keep telling me. I raised them like my dad raised me. My mother too, but dad was the prevailing influence. Always question. Always think. Never take anyone's word just because they're supposed to know what they're talking about, but be polite and respectful when you need to. And find what you love to do and do it. If you make enough money to live that's enough. There was more, but the prevailing theme of my life was "think for yourself". Of course it backfired on him a few times but that was ok. It's backfired on me a few times too. I'd rather have them think for themselves and not agree with me than just agree because they have to. (Glad to see that was meant as a "devil's advocate" post!)
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Post by freefromtyranny on Sept 2, 2010 8:47:09 GMT -5
Sometimes when you meet homeschooled teens they do seem refreshing and adults are often impressed because they seem more adult in their conversations. One reason for that is they have NO culture of their own generation.. they are just little replicas of their parent's interests and values. This is not true across the board. The homeschoolers I have interacted with in two largish homeschool groups in both AZ and MO were not replicas of their parents. They were easy to talk to because they knew HOW. And the reason they knew how was because they are talked to by adults. They get lots of practice. I can't speak for everyone but when I was growing up my friends' parents were mostly gone and when they were around they weren't initiating conversation with us. Untrue again. It would be pretty difficult to cut someone off "completely". I speak from experience. When we were in our most isolationist phase my 13yo daughter came home from WalMart one day and played "American Pie" on her guitar because she heard it over the speakers and figured out the chords! My kids definitely experience the "current culture their peers enjoy" because homeschoolers have their own culture. I am not speaking of complete cultish isolationists. You referred to homeschoolers as a whole and that is what I am addressing. Almost ALL of my kids' homeschool friends have a Facebook account and use it. These kids know quite a bit about current trends and they also have their own quirky things you may not see in the local public school. But, from what I remember, that happened in public school too. Every once in awhile you'd find some kid that latched onto something from a previous generation and ran with it. Several or many other kids would find that interesting as well and they'd spend that school year wear trench coats or $1 flip-flops. I know many homeschool alumni friends. They experienced things I did not and if they are all together they may reminisce about it. Then I am the odd one out. What's wrong with that? Eventually everyone grows up and can choose whether to leave. I don't think that this social stunting is found only on homeschool circles. All of us know about the loser adults that never leave home just because they have a codependent relationship with their mother. Or the guy/gal that hides behind a computer screen all day while missing out on life. If your argument is that all kids should have the same experience growing up then you need to address all those kids in private Jewish schools or Catholic schools. What about people that immigrate? Should they have to watch so many hours of Brady Bunch before they can enter the country? For all the whining folks do about individuality and freedom of choice I'm hearing a pretty loud message about conformity and fitting in on this thread. Seriously? Of all the issues that people have with fundamentalism and religiosity I think loss of teen culture should be the least of their worries.
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Post by MoonlitNight on Sept 2, 2010 9:05:03 GMT -5
(Glad to see that was meant as a "devil's advocate" post!) It was supposed to be more of a "everyone is likely right about the ugly baggage the girls are getting from QF, but there must be some rewards or compensations in there producing the effects this guy is noticing; let's investigate that a bit" post, but clearly it didn't come across that way. See, I have a hard time understanding why people get sucked into or stay in this lifestyle, because my childhood gave me a very different set of experiences. I got immunized, you could say. There was no religion unless you count lapsed-Catholic guilt liberally applied. There was lots of education and critical thinking. There was lots of seeing how living as a pre-feminist housewife made my mother miserable. There was also a lot of being controlled and baited, and being told that when I had the money and the age to pull it off, why then I was free to leave and live by my own damn rules. But thanks to theirs, that took longer than I liked. So I was trying to figure out what *are* the girls getting out of this, because all the stories say they are a lot happier than, I, for example, would be in that situation, and what it was that Mr. Richards was noticing, because he was noticing something real and interesting. I think he was noticing something that I've seen a few times before. When I was a teen, I was on the internet, back before that many people were, and I hung out in the newsgroups. I talked with a lot of people older than me, but they didn't know I was a 14 year old girl. On the occasions where age came up, a lot of them said they thought I was in my twenties from the way I wrote and the education I appeared to have. (I read a lot, and my mom likes giving history lessons.) I wasn't afraid to have an opinion and back it up as best I could. During my first degree, it took most of first year for the profs to train us into commenting and even arguing. Most of us weren't too used to having our ideas listened to respectfully OR critically evaluated. The profs would demolish your idea because it wasn't supported by evidence or malformed, but they never did it just because you were still a kid. As far as the profs were concerned, we were adults with fully-functioning brains, just less education and experience than them...and those faults were correctable. When I went back for my second degree, I noticed that the girls fresh out of highschool were scared of or alienated by the teacher. They couldn't talk to professors, in class or out, whether to answer questions or voice disagreement. They avoided me because I wasn't afraid to answer and sometimes hold debates with the teachers. I was treating the profs as equals, not superiors or aliens, and it scared people off being friends with me. It was so weird that the only people who volunteered to speak up in that first two years were typically the girls who already had part or all of a degree before they got in -- ones who like me knew the profs were just adults with their own sets of interests. So, I think that one important satisfaction the Duggar girls could be getting out of their current bargain is that, insofar as the system allows women to be adults, they are being treated as adults with a valuable contribution to make, and it gives them a kind of confidence that many mainstream teenagers don't have at that point in their lives. Overall I think the Duggar girls have a terrible bargain...but I find it very curious that they have seem to have adult confidence as part of the deal.
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Post by stampinmama on Sept 2, 2010 9:25:01 GMT -5
So, I think that one important satisfaction the Duggar girls could be getting out of their current bargain is that, insofar as the system allows women to be adults, they are being treated as adults with a valuable contribution to make, and it gives them a kind of confidence that many mainstream teenagers don't have at that point in their lives. Overall I think the Duggar girls have a terrible bargain...but I find it very curious that they have seem to have adult confidence as part of the deal. From my experience in my homeschooled teen past, many of us had adult "confidence" (though I certainly wouldn't call it confidence, but an "expectation of my parents") because we were forced to grow up too quickly and we were expected to act like adults, without given the rights of adults. I had to chuckle at what you said about insofar as the system allows women to be adults,. That's such an oxymoron. The system doesn't allow women to be adults except for their age.
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Post by Sierra on Sept 2, 2010 9:39:20 GMT -5
Thanks for answering my question, bronwyn. I didn't mean to rip into you - I've just been struggling lately with finding ways to relate my fundie past to the experiences other adults had around me. When I get to the heart of things, I learned many of the same lessons as my "worldly" peers - but I don't for a moment think I came out of the experience advantaged.
Homeschooling was good for me. Even botching my high school curriculum was good for me - it gave me a "time out" before college without a report card monitoring my level of depression.
Fundamentalism was not good for me. I wasn't totally isolated, like freefromtyranny points out. I used to pick up songs on the radio in stores and privately like them. The difference was that I wasn't allowed to have tapes or CDs of them, and I felt guilty of some mortal sin for liking them in the first place. I knew about the latest fashion trends and tried to come up with my own "modest" versions. Message girls had their own trends (spaghetti straps over t-shirts, jean skirts made from cut-up jeans).
The difference is this: When I talk to my BF now, he tells me that he got through high school and had a reasonably good time by making his own set of friends who weren't the popular kids. I'm not saying I wish fundamentalist teens had to partake in a monolithic mainstream "teen culture," but that they missed the opportunity to form those unique groups. I probably would have been in the "geeky, nerdy" crowd talking about Japanese culture and computer games, because I tried it to some extent in my own circle. I actually found a community of non-Message people online who shared those interests, and they saved my life. Because everything you like in fundamentalism that isn't part of "God's plan for your life" (read: homemaking and Bible study) is suspect. It's no fun to grow up sneaking around, trying to hold onto innocent little scraps of the things you love because adults don't trust you.
As for adult conversation: well, I came out of the experience able to talk business. And I had no greater problem addressing adults than other teens. But I wasn't confident. I was extremely nervous talking in class the first year. By the time I was a senior in college, I was getting impatient with the fact that I was having practically solo conversations with professors during discussion groups. But it occurs to me that I only learned a very frank, open style of communication that suits the classroom but does not suit small talk at any age. It took me those same three years after leaving the Message to understand (by googling everything) when something was a movie quote, a song lyric, or a sexual innuendo. It's really embarrassing and alienating when you miss every joke or totally fail to realize someone is hitting on you (wanted or otherwise).
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Post by hopewell on Sept 2, 2010 10:53:46 GMT -5
NO culture of their own generation. If you mean homeschoolers as extreme in isolating their kids as the Duggars [which is what I assume you mean] then yes, you are correct. The homeschoolers we know are into the same stuff as the public school kids. The ATI kids clearly have their own culture--check out the hilarious EX-ATI GUY blog [not updated in a long time, but still relevant]. The have the whole ATI culture and could make the same argument you make about the REST of the kids! lol.--Imagine NOT knowing the operational definitions of the 49 character qualities! Imagine thinking God will love you if you date--can you imagine [picture teenage eye roll here]. Imagine your parents caring so little they let you run wild. I say this to show that in "their world" the Duggars ARE culturally astute and even get to really push the envelope. In their world they don't need critical thinking skills--everything is decided for them! Excellent discussion!!
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Post by stampinmama on Sept 2, 2010 11:19:02 GMT -5
I used to pick up songs on the radio in stores and privately like them. The difference was that I wasn't allowed to have tapes or CDs of them, and I felt guilty of some mortal sin for liking them in the first place. I knew about the latest fashion trends and tried to come up with my own "modest" versions. Message girls had their own trends (spaghetti straps over t-shirts, jean skirts made from cut-up jeans). The difference is this: When I talk to my BF now, he tells me that he got through high school and had a reasonably good time by making his own set of friends who weren't the popular kids. I'm not saying I wish fundamentalist teens had to partake in a monolithic mainstream "teen culture," but that they missed the opportunity to form those unique groups.Because everything you like in fundamentalism that isn't part of "God's plan for your life" (read: homemaking and Bible study) is suspect. It's no fun to grow up sneaking around, trying to hold onto innocent little scraps of the things you love because adults don't trust you. It's really embarrassing and alienating when you miss every joke or totally fail to realize someone is hitting on you (wanted or otherwise). I had a walkman and would listen to it at night. I'd pick up the Oldies radio station and I felt so rebellious for that. I'd hide the walkman during the day so no one could find it. Eventually, a pair of batteries ended up corroding out the walkman and it was a sad day for me. It was hard enough trying to hide the thing, but even harder to get batteries for it. Because I didn't have any money (I wasn't allowed to have a job) and because I would have been asked what the batteries were for if I bought them in the store (I wasn't allowed a driver's license so anytime I went to the store, it was with one of my parents and because my parents believed in "shadowing," I was never alone), it was very difficult to buy a new pack of batteries. We weren't even allowed to listen to Christian music other than tapes with hymns or Classical music. Definitely NO Christian Contemporary. (That's something that always confused me about the Campbells.....they were instrumental in bringing the Newboys to the US, but with all their "against the world talk," it surprises me that they would even be fans of the Newboys.) In the Message church in NY and PA, the girls had a certain way of dressing that made them popular, too. They even had a way they did their hair that all the other girls copied if they wanted to be in the "In crowd." Tailored blouses and a-line skirts, along with puffy hair put up and little ringlets cascading down the front. I got chastised for not wearing panty hose there. My sister turned into a carbon copy of the rest of them and it certainly didn't win her any friends since we were outsiders from the start. Not long ago, I ran into a girl in the health food store. I knew exactly who she was even though I hadn't seen her in more than 10 years. The hair in a bun and the denim jumper and blouse buttoned all the way to the top made her stand out. When she saw that I was looking at her, she smiled at me and I thought she might have recognized me. I asked her if she was so-and-so and she confirmed it. I reminded her who I was. The conversation was SO stunted. It was horribly awkward. There was nothing that she could talk about, it seemed. She's cloistered in her own little world, on her daddy's compound and shut in with her husband and daughter. She asked how many kids I had and I said, "two." She said, "Oh." and looked at me with pity. I asked how many she had and she said one and that she was pregnant with the second. She then went on to explain away why she didn't have more....that they tried and tried but God wasn't blessing them with any more until now. it made me realize that she was the one that truly needed the pity. She couldn't hold a normal conversation, she felt the need to justify why she didn't have any more and the only answer she could come up with is that God had withheld his blessing from them. So sad.
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Post by humbletigger on Sept 2, 2010 11:46:51 GMT -5
brownwyn, Have you read The Teenage Liberation Handbook by Grace Llewellyn? Subtitled "how to quit school and get a real life and education" I think you would love it! My daughter's home school experience was a bizarre mix of Christian fundamentalism and 70s hippe unschooling leanings coupled with extreme nerdiness. We watched Psalty and Charity Churchmouse! And a few years later she was logging on to Neopets to roleplay. I was nothing if NOT inconsistent. Like Sierra I am sure she would agree the fundamentalism was the part she would like to have done without.
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Post by MoonlitNight on Sept 2, 2010 11:54:44 GMT -5
So, I think that one important satisfaction the Duggar girls could be getting out of their current bargain is that, insofar as the system allows women to be adults, they are being treated as adults with a valuable contribution to make, and it gives them a kind of confidence that many mainstream teenagers don't have at that point in their lives. Overall I think the Duggar girls have a terrible bargain...but I find it very curious that they have seem to have adult confidence as part of the deal. From my experience in my homeschooled teen past, many of us had adult "confidence" (though I certainly wouldn't call it confidence, but an "expectation of my parents") because we were forced to grow up too quickly and we were expected to act like adults, without given the rights of adults. I had to chuckle at what you said about insofar as the system allows women to be adults,. That's such an oxymoron. The system doesn't allow women to be adults except for their age. I had a fair dose of the "be an adult except you don't have any rights" part too. One of my mother's favourite tactics was to say she was open to rational negotiation, but any ideas she didn't like weren't rational. And yeah, there was a reason for the "insofar" bit, especially after all the misunderstandings before. Seems to me that being a woman in QF boils down to being an unpaid servant with triple duty as a sextoy and baby factory. I don't understand how anyone could be happy doing it, or even close enough to fool themselves....but then, I don't think I'll ever want kids either. Still, how the Duggar girls put up with it is a mystery to me, and I was trying to imagine whether it looks like a good deal from their perspective, and why they might think and feel so. From mine, either they have to be delusional, or they have be reaping *some* emotional benefits, or some combination of the above. I was merely pointing out that it may in fact be "combination of the above" and what those benefits might be.
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Post by humbletigger on Sept 2, 2010 12:02:46 GMT -5
You did such a good job it sounded like you were an insider to the whole QF movement. That is exactly the sort of thing fundie isolationist parents tell themselves and their teens. I've said parts of it before myself, before I got out of my bubble and started hanging out with neighbors who public schooled.
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Post by stampinmama on Sept 2, 2010 12:39:46 GMT -5
I had a fair dose of the "be an adult except you don't have any rights" part too. One of my mother's favourite tactics was to say she was open to rational negotiation, but any ideas she didn't like weren't rational. Still, how the Duggar girls put up with it is a mystery to me, and I was trying to imagine whether it looks like a good deal from their perspective, and why they might think and feel so. From mine, either they have to be delusional, or they have be reaping *some* emotional benefits, or some combination of the above. I was merely pointing out that it may in fact be "combination of the above" and what those benefits might be. My dad always said that if we had Biblical back-up, he would listen. There was always a justification, though, for what he believed. He would manipulate the scriptures to make him win in any debate. I think the Duggar girls are either delusional or they don't dare look and act the status quo because it would ruin their image in front of a national audience. Maybe some of both.
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Post by MoonlitNight on Sept 2, 2010 13:06:43 GMT -5
Thanks for answering my question, bronwyn. I didn't mean to rip into you - I've just been struggling lately with finding ways to relate my fundie past to the experiences other adults had around me. When I get to the heart of things, I learned many of the same lessons as my "worldly" peers - but I don't for a moment think I came out of the experience advantaged. Enough people were misunderstanding me so badly, and making half my points for me so well, that I ended up laughing instead of getting my feelings hurt, actually. The typical, and reasonable, assumption around here is that you're probably either an ex-fundamentalist, or a present fundamentalist. I'm neither, which means that when people make assumptions about who I am and how I think, chances are they're wrong unless they've been tracking details of my history from posts. The difference is this: When I talk to my BF now, he tells me that he got through high school and had a reasonably good time by making his own set of friends who weren't the popular kids. I'm not saying I wish fundamentalist teens had to partake in a monolithic mainstream "teen culture," but that they missed the opportunity to form those unique groups. I probably would have been in the "geeky, nerdy" crowd talking about Japanese culture and computer games, because I tried it to some extent in my own circle. I actually found a community of non-Message people online who shared those interests, and they saved my life. Because everything you like in fundamentalism that isn't part of "God's plan for your life" (read: homemaking and Bible study) is suspect. It's no fun to grow up sneaking around, trying to hold onto innocent little scraps of the things you love because adults don't trust you. The weird friends that found me in highschool saved me too -- I finally had Real Friends that I could actually talk to and love and had somewhere to belong for the first time ever. Sierra, you probably would have fit in pretty well, because anime and computer games were among our geekeries. I don't know what would have happened to me without them. Life had improved because the popular people were ignoring me instead of tormenting me... But it occurs to me that I only learned a very frank, open style of communication that suits the classroom but does not suit small talk at any age. It took me those same three years after leaving the Message to understand (by googling everything) when something was a movie quote, a song lyric, or a sexual innuendo. It's really embarrassing and alienating when you miss every joke or totally fail to realize someone is hitting on you (wanted or otherwise). I'm not that good at small talk with people outside my tribe either. And I still don't get ALL the cultural references around me, because I didn't watch a lot of shows. You learn how to take it in stride when there are just gaps instead of a great blank field, especially when you see how much you get all kinds of references other people don't. It also sounds like you should find your local circle of compatible geeks. Geeks often start developing more/better social skills once they get into the real world and find a slightly wider circle. (Especially after it starts including girls who are not afraid to hit them with clue-by-fours.) What this means is that you have a bunch of people who know what it's like to not fit in, are used to having to analyze social situations instead of doing it on intuition, and who are still learning themselves. They're likely to be a lot gentler on whatever faults you have than the non-geeks will. Plus, many of them have cool interests which may match well.
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kathe
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Post by kathe on Sept 2, 2010 13:42:11 GMT -5
"clue by fours" Made me lol
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Post by hopewell on Sept 2, 2010 14:26:18 GMT -5
(That's something that always confused me about the Campbells.....they were instrumental in bringing the Newboys to the US, but with all their "against the world talk," it surprises me that they would even be fans of the Newboys.)
I don't think it's ever been said that the Campbells ARE fans of the Newsboys--just "owner" of the Newsboys!! It's exactly like the Duggars "watch VERY little tv"but have a reality show. It's called "income stream" in some circles I believe! lol
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Post by stampinmama on Sept 2, 2010 14:33:52 GMT -5
I don't think it's ever been said that the Campbells ARE fans of the Newsboys--just "owner" of the Newsboys!! It's exactly like the Duggars "watch VERY little tv"but have a reality show. It's called "income stream" in some circles I believe! lol That totally makes sense. The Almighty Dollar has greater power than convictions, it seems.
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Post by km on Sept 2, 2010 16:47:49 GMT -5
Sometimes when you meet homeschooled teens they do seem refreshing and adults are often impressed because they seem more adult in their conversations. One reason for that is they have NO culture of their own generation.. they are just little replicas of their parent's interests and values. This is not true across the board. The homeschoolers I have interacted with in two largish homeschool groups in both AZ and MO were not replicas of their parents. They were easy to talk to because they knew HOW. And the reason they knew how was because they are talked to by adults. They get lots of practice. I can't speak for everyone but when I was growing up my friends' parents were mostly gone and when they were around they weren't initiating conversation with us. Untrue again. It would be pretty difficult to cut someone off "completely". I speak from experience. When we were in our most isolationist phase my 13yo daughter came home from WalMart one day and played "American Pie" on her guitar because she heard it over the speakers and figured out the chords! My kids definitely experience the "current culture their peers enjoy" because homeschoolers have their own culture. I am not speaking of complete cultish isolationists. You referred to homeschoolers as a whole and that is what I am addressing. Almost ALL of my kids' homeschool friends have a Facebook account and use it. These kids know quite a bit about current trends and they also have their own quirky things you may not see in the local public school. But, from what I remember, that happened in public school too. Every once in awhile you'd find some kid that latched onto something from a previous generation and ran with it. Several or many other kids would find that interesting as well and they'd spend that school year wear trench coats or $1 flip-flops. I know many homeschool alumni friends. They experienced things I did not and if they are all together they may reminisce about it. Then I am the odd one out. What's wrong with that? Eventually everyone grows up and can choose whether to leave. I don't think that this social stunting is found only on homeschool circles. All of us know about the loser adults that never leave home just because they have a codependent relationship with their mother. Or the guy/gal that hides behind a computer screen all day while missing out on life. If your argument is that all kids should have the same experience growing up then you need to address all those kids in private Jewish schools or Catholic schools. What about people that immigrate? Should they have to watch so many hours of Brady Bunch before they can enter the country? For all the whining folks do about individuality and freedom of choice I'm hearing a pretty loud message about conformity and fitting in on this thread. Seriously? Of all the issues that people have with fundamentalism and religiosity I think loss of teen culture should be the least of their worries. You know... It is apparent that this touched a nerve, but arietty did not suggest that this was true of all homeschooled teenagers. She said "sometimes..."
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Post by lucrezaborgia on Sept 2, 2010 17:21:06 GMT -5
Am I wrong, or does it seem like most of these parents who came from "the world" are the ones most adamant about sheltering their children? Our experiences are what make us, no? Michelle Dugger was a cheerleader and actually dated. Would she have the convictions that she has now without that worldly experience?
What happens if a child who has been extremely sheltered suddenly looses both parents?
What ever happened to learning from ones mistakes? You can give advice to someone till you are blue in the face and still people won't learn until they have either succeeded or failed on their own terms.
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Post by arietty on Sept 2, 2010 17:39:55 GMT -5
If your argument is that all kids should have the same experience growing up then you need to address all those kids in private Jewish schools or Catholic schools. What about people that immigrate? Should they have to watch so many hours of Brady Bunch before they can enter the country? For all the whining folks do about individuality and freedom of choice I'm hearing a pretty loud message about conformity and fitting in on this thread. Seriously? Of all the issues that people have with fundamentalism and religiosity I think loss of teen culture should be the least of their worries. I wasn't making an "argument" fft, I was making an observation. I could make MANY observations about homeschooling families, this is just one observation of one dynamic I have seen. I have also read a lament about missing out on your generation from homeschooled daughters on this forum many times and it's been good for me to think about as my older children experienced this but my younger children did not. In my homeschool circles our IDEAL was that our children should be untainted by the culture of the world. Some people were pretty successful at that.
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Post by stampinmama on Sept 2, 2010 18:08:43 GMT -5
Am I wrong, or does it seem like most of these parents who came from "the world" are the ones most adamant about sheltering their children? Our experiences are what make us, no? Michelle Dugger was a cheerleader and actually dated. Would she have the convictions that she has now without that worldly experience? What ever happened to learning from ones mistakes? You can give advice to someone till you are blue in the face and still people won't learn until they have either succeeded or failed on their own terms. This was very true with my parents. They met in high school at age 14 and 16. They dated. My mother had sex with my dad when she was 14 (not long after they started dating). They were pot heads in their teens and early into their marriage. They skipped school. They had their group of friends that they dirt biked with. My parents pulled us all out of school when I was 14. Men in the patriarch movement started spewing crap to them about the sins being pass to the generations to follow them and so their response was to pull us out of school and shelter and isolate us. The thing is, I was a good student. I was a good kid. We all were. It wasn't until my parents pulled the reigns in that I started acting out and being "rebellious" because I was being suffocated by them. Many of these parents think that if they shelter their kids, they won't make the mistakes that they did. The problem is that they're so isolated and sheltered and naive that when they finally do leave home (if they are able to have the balls to do it), they're so street-dumb that they make the same mistakes and but even worse.
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Post by lucrezaborgia on Sept 2, 2010 18:29:45 GMT -5
My upbringing was from the other extreme. From the age of 13 and on, I was pretty much allowed to do whatever I wanted due to my father going to jail for 10 years. My mother was too busy working to support myself and my sister, but at the same time was heavily into drugs and alcohol, so I had to become mom for my little sister. 100% freedom was a disaster for me and a lot of my mental illness was chalked up to the ills of too much freedom.
There are A LOT of things that I plan on doing differently when I do have children, but I don't think that sheltering is the answer. We all have to walk our own paths and I hope that I can guide my children well, but I plan on standing aside and let them make their own mistakes as long as it does not involve serious threat to them.
I read a lot of Sci-Fi and this quote always struck me: "Never crowd youngsters about their private affairs--sex especially. When they are growing up they are nerve ends all over, and resent (quite properly) any invasions of their privacy. Oh sure, they’ll make mistakes--but that’s their business, not yours. (You made your own mistakes, did you not?)"
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Post by arietty on Sept 2, 2010 18:46:43 GMT -5
One thing that will help teenagers to make good choices is critical thinking, the very thing that you have to jettison if you are going to swallow fundamentalist culture/dogma. There is a pat answer for everything, no grey areas.
My teenagers now love to discuss ethics, choices, motivations.. we have very lively discussions. However my first lot of kids the discussions consisted of "what does the bible say about it" and that was it! It wasn't a discussion, it was a catechism.
I like to think that all the critical thinking that they actually learn in school as well as the naturally inquiring and wrestling with issues family culture they are growing up in helps them make good decisions. Unlike our catechism days they actually believe that thinking about things provides you with answers and understanding. When I was a fundamentalist one of my (many) favorite verses was "Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding" Prov 3:5 This meant you could NOT trust your own ideas at all, and trusting in the Lord meant referring to the bible as your template for everything. The only so-called critical thinking that was applied was to eschatology, the real world had ready made answers available in the bible that didn't require much thought at all, only a lot of bible reading.
I can remember the newness when I was freshly exited from fundamentalism of actually thinking about life issues, thinking about what my response to them was rather than just thinking "well the bible says.." It is really quite an expanding experience.
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Post by humbletigger on Sept 3, 2010 9:05:23 GMT -5
Ironic, isn't it, that so many religious school curriculae claims to teach "critical thinking" skills when they are really just putting up straw men to tear down with the prepared religious refutation? I am specifically thinking of creation science, but it creeps into all the books. Like the high school Spanish we studied. In learning about Latin American culture, what they were really teaching was the fundamentalist interpretation of traditional practices (they were bad!) and how the fundamentalist church in Latin America lived (this was the right way- though it is a teeny tiny segment of Latin American culture). We used it to develop true critical thinking though, like "what do you see as the agenda behind this textbook developer? what methods are they using to try to accomplish this? how likely is it that they will succeed? do you think this is how most people of this culture really live?" etc.
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