Post by calluna on Sept 16, 2010 10:15:14 GMT -5
Well, I have had a busy two days, and it has given me time to think, get some objective opinions as to what went on here in the forum.
First off I would like to apologize for initally taking things about the article personally. Vykie, I will post my response in purple.
First off I would like to apologize for initally taking things about the article personally. Vykie, I will post my response in purple.
Calluna ~ I have added a preface (written by KR) to the beginning of Hopewell's article along with a link to my "Duggar Bashing" post.
I read the preface, and it makes total sense to the intentions of Hopewell's post now. At the time of my first reading it, her intentions of writing, at first, came across to me, as a poke fun at the Duggars for the fun of it. It was hard for me to process the article for what it was meant to be. The reason I took it personal, I will explain below.
After writing my response to you last night, I went to bed and thought about how we all have such different perceptions and how good and necessary it is that we should all be able to openly express our unique perspectives in order for a whole and true picture to emerge. Many of us here read the Duggar Report Card and thought ~ why's Hopewell being so nice to the Duggars? Others, such as yourself, read it and wondered why she's being so critical and nit-picky.
I took the article as being "nit-picky" and "critical" at first, because I took it personally. Let me explain what I mean.
Some of the things that came across to me as nit-picky and "unkind" in hopewell's post, are the things that I do myself everyday. I use paper plates, and I used disposable diapers for my kids. I use hair spray, (ALOT) because my hair is very fine, and one woosh of the breeze and walk out into Florida humidty my hair is is done.
I see nothing wrong with traveling in a coach bus. ;D
So to sum up the point I was trying to make the other day, Hopewell's article just seemed she was nitpicking on weaknesses that every *normal* parent may or may not do. *I* felt personally attacked as a mother. I begin to think, "Wow, am I an aweful person if I use paper plates? Am I an aweful person if I use hairspray? or drive a Suburban? (which I do)"
That is what I got from the article at first.
It was explained to me from another person here on the forum, privately, what they got out of the article and what they explained made perfect sense to me.
After that explination.... I "got" the reason for hopewell's article. Now I don't take it personally anymore. So I apologize for getting my temper flared up, and not taking a step back at first, and thinking through it. I promise I will try to do better, but I am still learning, and may make a mistake from time to time.
I would like to post what the person told me privately, because, honestly I felt it was brilant, and adds an important perspective as to why Hopewell's article is indeed important.
She said,
Just reading the "report" card, without any explination as to the reasoning of why it was being done, just made me feel confused, and take it personally. I figured that there maybe some other people out there that felt the same as I did.
Again, thank you for writing the preface, and taking into consideration my point of view. And again I apologize for my initial reaction.
There was a lot of back-and-forth with various perspectives being shared ~ and that exchange resulted in a better understanding and better article ~ which is how the whole processing thing works. I am sorry that you did not feel supported through that process ~ it probably would have helped if I had addressed your concerns directly to you rather than just writing the "Duggar Bashing" post with no comment to you personally.
Again, thank you for writing the preface.
I am encouraged that you are not giving up on this discussion ~ it shows that you are willing to take constructive criticism as well as contributing your own take on things.
I will admit that it is hard for me to take criticism when there is a bit of snark added in there.
And that does stem from my fundy days. It was a pure "critical enviroment" for the same of just being critical about everything.
So it is hard for me to distinguish between criticism meant to help, and criticism because others just think they are "right because they are right, and to get over it."
Add a message forum across the murky waters of the internet makes even harder. Without the advantage of seeing facial expressions and hearing voice inflections, makes it even harder for me to discern what is really going on.
I am I am sure I am guilty of making others feel the same way as I felt through my writing. And again, I apologize if I did do that.
I've been thinking lately how ironic it is that NLQ seems to be perceived quite differently depending on the perspective of the reader. We have several new readers who are commenting on the blog ~ conservative Christians who are convinced that NLQ is nothing but angry, liberal, feminist Atheists. On the other hand, MoJoey at "Deep Thoughts" recently called NLQ a Christian website and over at Free Jinger, someone was asking, What's with all the bible quoting at NLQ?
The reason we get such a mixed reaction is because NLQ regulars are, on the one hand, individually unique and diverse, and on the other hand, we're pretty much the same in our refusal to be pegged ~ not one of us here fits neatly into any pre-defined category of "Christian," "Atheist," "Pagan," etc ~ we've grown past the labels and we want to be known for our distinctions rather than how closely we conform to a set of doctrines or stereotypes.
I get what you are saying here. I don't fit neatly in a pre-defined category according to many Christians. But because I am still a Christian, those that are not, I feel, will still think that I still fit into the pre-defined category of Christianity. I myself, refuse to be pegged down to anything "mainstreem". I purpose myself to try not to swing from one extreme to the next. For the most part I am on everyone's side about these issues. But there maybe some things that I do disagree with.
It is quite a frustrating place for me to be in. I used to conform whole heartily to any "cause" I agreed with, very easily. So to purpose not to swallow any flavor of kool-aide before I analyize it, sniff it, discect it, and look under a microscope at it, it is time consuming and makes me feel like an odd ball where ever I go.
So even though I am passionate against the false system of QF, and Patriarchy, I am not going to just agree for the sake of agreement with what ever is said against it, if something bugs me about what I have read.
However, I will *try* not to get emotional in my initial response, and sit on it a few days.
This is good for me, because it causes me to be a better writer and communicater.
It is for this reason that I invited you to share your story here at NLQ, Calluna. Your story ~ and the place you are now ~ is an important piece of the whole picture. While I do feel that NLQ would benefit by including your perspective ~ you certainly are under no obligation ~ only you can determine if sharing your story here is beneficial to you. You are saying that you don't feel safe and supported ~ I am having a difficult time seeing it that way ~ but I am not going to dismiss your feelings or say you don't know what you're talking about and continue to press you to stick with us and write for NLQ.
Thank you for respecting my feelings Vykie. I still may need some more time to think about writing. Now that I hope we cleared the air, I feel more comfortable with writing.
I will, however, make the point that if you feel your perspective is missing, misunderstood, or underrepresented here at NLQ ~ you really are welcome to speak up and continue to challenge us and make sure that your point of view is heard. I hope you will ~ it's your decision.
I read the preface, and it makes total sense to the intentions of Hopewell's post now. At the time of my first reading it, her intentions of writing, at first, came across to me, as a poke fun at the Duggars for the fun of it. It was hard for me to process the article for what it was meant to be. The reason I took it personal, I will explain below.
After writing my response to you last night, I went to bed and thought about how we all have such different perceptions and how good and necessary it is that we should all be able to openly express our unique perspectives in order for a whole and true picture to emerge. Many of us here read the Duggar Report Card and thought ~ why's Hopewell being so nice to the Duggars? Others, such as yourself, read it and wondered why she's being so critical and nit-picky.
I took the article as being "nit-picky" and "critical" at first, because I took it personally. Let me explain what I mean.
Some of the things that came across to me as nit-picky and "unkind" in hopewell's post, are the things that I do myself everyday. I use paper plates, and I used disposable diapers for my kids. I use hair spray, (ALOT) because my hair is very fine, and one woosh of the breeze and walk out into Florida humidty my hair is is done.
I see nothing wrong with traveling in a coach bus. ;D
So to sum up the point I was trying to make the other day, Hopewell's article just seemed she was nitpicking on weaknesses that every *normal* parent may or may not do. *I* felt personally attacked as a mother. I begin to think, "Wow, am I an aweful person if I use paper plates? Am I an aweful person if I use hairspray? or drive a Suburban? (which I do)"
That is what I got from the article at first.
It was explained to me from another person here on the forum, privately, what they got out of the article and what they explained made perfect sense to me.
After that explination.... I "got" the reason for hopewell's article. Now I don't take it personally anymore. So I apologize for getting my temper flared up, and not taking a step back at first, and thinking through it. I promise I will try to do better, but I am still learning, and may make a mistake from time to time.
I would like to post what the person told me privately, because, honestly I felt it was brilant, and adds an important perspective as to why Hopewell's article is indeed important.
She said,
"For many people following the QF lifestyle, those are decadent luxuries they could never afford. They are overloaded with the extra laundry of diapers and the extra labor of doing dishes for a large family. I know QF families who could never afford styling products either. They deserve to know some of the ways the Duggars make it look so easy- they can afford disposable plates and diapers. So pointing these things out may be helpful to them. Knowing that the Duggars have resources they don't will actually relieve their guilt about not living up to the Duggar standard.
That was the whole point of hopewell's post- that the standard can't be uphold without cutting a lot of corners, using child labor and having a full-time laundress to help out. Also the disposable income (heh heh see what I did there, fellow wordsmiths? =) to buy Pampers and paper plates makes it easier to handle a large family, so people without the money for that shouldn't feel guilty that they have no time for field trips, home schooling proper, and missions of mercy to others. Dishes and laundry take up a much higher proportion of their time than it will for the Duggars and they deserve to have that laid out for them in plain text, imo."
That was the whole point of hopewell's post- that the standard can't be uphold without cutting a lot of corners, using child labor and having a full-time laundress to help out. Also the disposable income (heh heh see what I did there, fellow wordsmiths? =) to buy Pampers and paper plates makes it easier to handle a large family, so people without the money for that shouldn't feel guilty that they have no time for field trips, home schooling proper, and missions of mercy to others. Dishes and laundry take up a much higher proportion of their time than it will for the Duggars and they deserve to have that laid out for them in plain text, imo."
Just reading the "report" card, without any explination as to the reasoning of why it was being done, just made me feel confused, and take it personally. I figured that there maybe some other people out there that felt the same as I did.
Again, thank you for writing the preface, and taking into consideration my point of view. And again I apologize for my initial reaction.
There was a lot of back-and-forth with various perspectives being shared ~ and that exchange resulted in a better understanding and better article ~ which is how the whole processing thing works. I am sorry that you did not feel supported through that process ~ it probably would have helped if I had addressed your concerns directly to you rather than just writing the "Duggar Bashing" post with no comment to you personally.
Again, thank you for writing the preface.
I am encouraged that you are not giving up on this discussion ~ it shows that you are willing to take constructive criticism as well as contributing your own take on things.
I will admit that it is hard for me to take criticism when there is a bit of snark added in there.
And that does stem from my fundy days. It was a pure "critical enviroment" for the same of just being critical about everything.
So it is hard for me to distinguish between criticism meant to help, and criticism because others just think they are "right because they are right, and to get over it."
Add a message forum across the murky waters of the internet makes even harder. Without the advantage of seeing facial expressions and hearing voice inflections, makes it even harder for me to discern what is really going on.
I am I am sure I am guilty of making others feel the same way as I felt through my writing. And again, I apologize if I did do that.
I've been thinking lately how ironic it is that NLQ seems to be perceived quite differently depending on the perspective of the reader. We have several new readers who are commenting on the blog ~ conservative Christians who are convinced that NLQ is nothing but angry, liberal, feminist Atheists. On the other hand, MoJoey at "Deep Thoughts" recently called NLQ a Christian website and over at Free Jinger, someone was asking, What's with all the bible quoting at NLQ?
The reason we get such a mixed reaction is because NLQ regulars are, on the one hand, individually unique and diverse, and on the other hand, we're pretty much the same in our refusal to be pegged ~ not one of us here fits neatly into any pre-defined category of "Christian," "Atheist," "Pagan," etc ~ we've grown past the labels and we want to be known for our distinctions rather than how closely we conform to a set of doctrines or stereotypes.
I get what you are saying here. I don't fit neatly in a pre-defined category according to many Christians. But because I am still a Christian, those that are not, I feel, will still think that I still fit into the pre-defined category of Christianity. I myself, refuse to be pegged down to anything "mainstreem". I purpose myself to try not to swing from one extreme to the next. For the most part I am on everyone's side about these issues. But there maybe some things that I do disagree with.
It is quite a frustrating place for me to be in. I used to conform whole heartily to any "cause" I agreed with, very easily. So to purpose not to swallow any flavor of kool-aide before I analyize it, sniff it, discect it, and look under a microscope at it, it is time consuming and makes me feel like an odd ball where ever I go.
So even though I am passionate against the false system of QF, and Patriarchy, I am not going to just agree for the sake of agreement with what ever is said against it, if something bugs me about what I have read.
However, I will *try* not to get emotional in my initial response, and sit on it a few days.
This is good for me, because it causes me to be a better writer and communicater.
It is for this reason that I invited you to share your story here at NLQ, Calluna. Your story ~ and the place you are now ~ is an important piece of the whole picture. While I do feel that NLQ would benefit by including your perspective ~ you certainly are under no obligation ~ only you can determine if sharing your story here is beneficial to you. You are saying that you don't feel safe and supported ~ I am having a difficult time seeing it that way ~ but I am not going to dismiss your feelings or say you don't know what you're talking about and continue to press you to stick with us and write for NLQ.
Thank you for respecting my feelings Vykie. I still may need some more time to think about writing. Now that I hope we cleared the air, I feel more comfortable with writing.
I will, however, make the point that if you feel your perspective is missing, misunderstood, or underrepresented here at NLQ ~ you really are welcome to speak up and continue to challenge us and make sure that your point of view is heard. I hope you will ~ it's your decision.