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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Sept 27, 2010 7:53:03 GMT -5
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Post by humbletigger on Sept 27, 2010 9:29:39 GMT -5
Reading this, from the perspective of a mother, I am stunned. If any man treats my daughter like this, I will personally shoot the son of a bitch in the head while he sleeps, and be pleased with myself every single day I am in prison, and look forward to the reward of the righteous in the afterlife. I am so sorry this happened to you, Defendant Rising. I am stunned. Angry. And no longer ignorant.
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Post by Sierra on Sept 27, 2010 10:14:56 GMT -5
Good god. Where do men like this come from, and how can we plug the hole?
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Post by anatheist on Sept 27, 2010 11:27:57 GMT -5
This was hard to read. All I can be glad for is that if you're telling your story here, you must have gotten free at some time.
My boyfriend's family was living in Tazewell at that same time, and his father was also an engineer. It's a small place, but it doesn't sound like you knew many other families then because of your situation?
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Post by MoonlitNight on Sept 27, 2010 11:38:40 GMT -5
What they said. And now I'm going to rant a bit about why sheltering kids from romantic relationships is bad. Judging from part 1 of Defendant Rising's story, she was too sheltered to have the experience and defenses she needed when she needed them.
Cutting off the creep supply will take a lot of time and effort, so in the meantime we need to protect ourselves with mental alarm systems for spotting creeps. Unfortunately, these don't come standard. Consider the example of my university friend, who was brought up very sheltered, with no ambition beyond getting married and having kids, and little independence. She didn't know how to tell when she was being used, and didn't stand up for herself. She repeatedly walked into and stayed in relationships, both work and personal, where she was mistreated. Her first boyfriend was at least somewhat emotionally abusive. Some of her employers -- she often worked as a nanny -- gave her lousy working and living conditions, and she let them. She dated men she held in contempt because at least they would ask her out. She would dangle after men who were clearly playboys, when she wanted a stable, long-term relationship. It was scary to talk to her because there were so many stories of how she kept doing/allowing things that should have set off sirens in her head. I tried to counsel her into treating herself and others better, but she never listened.
And from that example, I want to focus in on a background detail: she was brought up too sheltered, so much so that she was a silly giggly 14 year old around men when she was 30something. She was emotionally immature, hungry for love and approval, but lacked independence, experience, and ambition. What she did have went towards landing a man. Now, egalitarian men who want women ready to be full partners and true companions tend to shy away from women who act immature and only display interest in acquiring the gold ring that brings husband, house, and kids. So my friend's lacks and behaviours ensured that the good, kind, mature men she needed stayed away, and the users, the immature, and the broken hung around.
Which brings me to my next point in the sheltering-is-bad-for-you lecture: we all make a bunch of stupid mistakes when we start having romantic relationships, no matter our ages. I've watched several friends who were late bloomers go through this now, and it doesn't matter that they were 28 or 32 or 34 when they started -- they made the same kinds of mistakes that I and the others who dated early made back at 14-18 years old. Only now those mistakes took years, not weeks, and involved marriage, divorce, common property, and permanent acrimony. (Thankfully none of them had kids right away.) Plus, in the meantime, the other people the same age had been practicing, learning, and growing, and experienced people know it is often a mistake to partner up with someone substantially less mature. This problem has a couple of very nice young men I know over a barrel. They're really sweet, and they'll be great husbands...but they need some breaking in first, and nobody wants to put in the effort.
I'm only 31 myself, but I've never seen a situation where keeping kids sheltered to the point of immaturity and ignorance actually helped them. People with more experience than me, have you ever seen it do good? Or does it just make people into easier victims than otherwise?
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Post by liltwinstar on Sept 27, 2010 12:18:52 GMT -5
My heart breaks reading this story. There has got to be a special place in hell for these men who think they can get away with this garbage. Personally, I'm rooting for every foul word, every punch, every kick, every hand raised in violence to be returned to them 10 fold and then some.
Bronwyn, you're right on the money with the sheltering. In my own experience, I ended up in an abusive relationship as did my sister. We had no idea of what to look for in men, and we didn't know how to end the relationships once we wanted out. I know for me, realizing that I could tell him - this relationship is over - was a huge revelation. Before that, I thought he was my cross to bear in life. I thought somehow I could change him, that if I was a better person, he would be a better person. Fortunately, I wasn't married to him, but that mental hurdle of being able to stand up for myself and say no more was huge.
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Post by whiteclover on Sept 27, 2010 12:21:26 GMT -5
I am a product of sheltering and isolation.
I was not allowed to date and the only male standard I had was my controlling, abusive father.
I went to Bible college at age 18. I met a boy. I married the boy. I divorced "the boy" 32 years later.
But he was a "good boy," right? I met him at Bible college, he was a "Christian," and his whole family were "Christians." It was a dream-come-true for a desperate-to-be-a-mom-and-wife.
I had NO social skills, no powers of discernment, no teaching except "thou shalt not think."
At the age of 50, I met a man. And promptly went through all the teenage angst of waiting for phone calls, getting dressed up, and learning to be myself, whoever that was, after 50 years of being under someone's oppressive thumb.
I could have saved myself 32 years of agony with even a thimbleful of "exposure to the world."
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Post by ambrosia on Sept 27, 2010 13:26:19 GMT -5
Not sheltering isn't totally goof-proof (I have 2 exes), partially because, although one can avoid the most obviously abusive people for partners, we may all have some unrealistic romantic fantasy that we try to fit (speaking for myself anyway). Also, over time people may grow and change differently.
That said, I completely agree that the whole "non-experienced, heart-whole" idea is a recipe for disaster, to be followed by the "God hates divorce" attitude to pour gas over the flames. I'm sure that there have been wonderful relationships under these circumstances but it would be by the wildest of good luck.
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em
Full Member
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Post by em on Sept 27, 2010 13:44:04 GMT -5
There are no words. Wow. What a horrible, horrible excuse for a man and a human being.
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Post by littlebird on Sept 27, 2010 13:55:42 GMT -5
Wow. Such a heartbreaking story. It apalls me (but doesn't surprise me) that men use religion and the bible to control women. What are they so afraid of??
It takes courage to tell this story; may it provide courage to other women in this situation and help them see that what they are experiencing is CRAZY. And that they can get out, and should. Raising children to witness (and experience) this abuse is sending the terrible message that this is all ok. And it is so NOT ok.
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Post by presentlyhuman on Sept 27, 2010 15:04:56 GMT -5
I'm only 31 myself, but I've never seen a situation where keeping kids sheltered to the point of immaturity and ignorance actually helped them. People with more experience than me, have you ever seen it do good? Or does it just make people into easier victims than otherwise? This is actually something I just recently wrote about on my own blog - how damaging it is too keep kids in the dark. Just because you remove the concept of an idea (in order to protect kids from everything "worldly") doesn't mean those things will disappear. I know friends who've dated abusers, who've gotten themselves into dangerous situations, all because their parents so sheltered them that they believed anyone who looked and acted like a Christian must never do anything wrong. I've lost friends for telling them they needed to be more aware, that not every one they meet is going to be trustworthy, but was written off as cynical and critical. My experiences were written off as existing on some other sphere - bad things happened to me because I was me, and don't represent the world at large (which I can understand from teenagers, but not from my fellow adults.) My whole neighborhood is a largely sanitized, closed off Christian neighborhood and I find, that the older I get and the more experiences I have, I relate less and less to my friends around me who seem to live in a perpetual state of teenaged romanticism, where life is only about finding "the one" and as long as your a good girl, prince charming will swoop in and make your life complete.
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Post by cereselle on Sept 27, 2010 16:13:34 GMT -5
I want terrible, terrible things to happen to this man. I want him to suffer. Yes, it's vengeful and vindictive. Oh well. I really, really hope that, somewhere, he got schooled in how very unimportant he is, and that that lesson crushed him.
IRT sheltering: yes. I too was sheltered as a child. My parents were loving, but very controlling. When I went away to (religious) college, I felt scared at the freedom I had. I could GO PLACES on my own! I could choose whether to go to church! I didn't have someone always watching me to approve of what I did! So, of course, I fell in love with the first boy who provided that control. It felt safe.
He came from his own dysfunctional background, and sought to control me so he'd have someone to love him who wouldn't leave. We hurt each other, over and over again. He tried to control me, my parents (who hated him) tried to control me, and I was torn between them and miserable.
Had I been brought up to think critically, to trust my own judgment, I would not have put up with nearly as much as I did. But children who are praised for questioning and reasoning might come to unbiblical conclusions, so good Christian parents and teachers must make sure they know there are right and wrong answers, and that their eternal fate hangs on getting it right.
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Post by lucrezaborgia on Sept 27, 2010 18:20:26 GMT -5
Not sheltering isn't totally goof-proof (I have 2 exes), partially because, although one can avoid the most obviously abusive people for partners, we may all have some unrealistic romantic fantasy that we try to fit (speaking for myself anyway). Also, over time people may grow and change differently. My older sister was decidedly NOT sheltered, but had been with the same guy since the age of 15. After he cheated on her for a few years she finally divorced him last year. Ever since then, she's been like a teenager dating in HS. All the good men steer far clear from her. I can't believe that someone would treat their wife and mother of their children like that. Awful! As irreligious as I am, I have a sort of faith in the form of karma. People eventually get it in the end, somehow.
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Post by krwordgazer on Sept 27, 2010 19:26:04 GMT -5
Defendant, thank you for injecting this: "Exercise Dominion! Please Jesus! Take over America! Using Tools You Probably Have Around the House!" because I really needed the comic relief. Wow, was that hard to read. I hardly know what to say. I found myself identifying with your mom, how mad she got at that (can't think of a word strong enough) you were married to, and yet how helpless she must have felt since you thought you had to stay with him.
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Post by kisekileia on Sept 27, 2010 20:35:26 GMT -5
What I don't understand is why nobody at the birth called 911, and why Tess' parents didn't get her to a hospital when she was staying with them. I mean, I get that Nate was a horrifically abusive asshole, but it seems to me like there was neglect from other people as well. It should have been clear that Tess was not well and needed medical care.
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Post by arietty on Sept 27, 2010 21:39:04 GMT -5
Not sheltering isn't totally goof-proof (I have 2 exes), partially because, although one can avoid the most obviously abusive people for partners, we may all have some unrealistic romantic fantasy that we try to fit (speaking for myself anyway). Also, over time people may grow and change differently. The trick I want to know, how to impart this to my daughters, is how to be able to GIVE UP on a jerk and get the hell out. Because women invest years waiting for change, feeling they love the guy all the while enduring horrible abuse. If you actually showed the young girl a couple in which she could see the same abuse going on she would be horrified.. but still stuck when she finds herself there. How to get unstuck.. even without the (overwhelming) religious fear of divorce women get stuck. Defendant I am so so so so happy you are out of this. My ex husband was always at his most physically abusive when I was pregnant.. pregnancy was absolute hell in so many ways.
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phatchick
Junior Member
Medicated for Your Protection
Posts: 80
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Post by phatchick on Sept 27, 2010 22:33:53 GMT -5
{{{DR}}} What you went through horrorfies me. I am so glad you are out of that mess.
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Post by mompom on Sept 27, 2010 22:47:21 GMT -5
First off... wow. That is awful!!!! I am so sorry! Second, I was wondering about the involvement with Great Commission, would you be willing to tell your story on the GC survivors forum? forum.gcmwarning.com/index.php. Thanks, and I am so glad you are telling your story.
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Post by lucrezaborgia on Sept 27, 2010 23:15:05 GMT -5
The trick I want to know, how to impart this to my daughters, is how to be able to GIVE UP on a jerk and get the hell out. Because women invest years waiting for change, feeling they love the guy all the while enduring horrible abuse. Any man who puts the happiness and/or success of a relationship on their partners shoulders, isn't worth keeping. Any man who needs to be changed to be a good man, isn't worth keeping. Any man who treats you badly in private and lovingly in public, isn't worth keeping. Love is NOT the only thing a relationship needs. Love does NOT save the day. Love does NOT necessarily change people. I could go on all day. I spend 4 years in a bad relationship. We really need to start a thread on this! Something semi-humorous and along the lines of "you might be a redneck"...just a suggestion.
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Post by tapati on Sept 28, 2010 1:29:14 GMT -5
These are some of the basic things about relationships that daughters need to know: www.uexpress.com/dearabby/?uc_full_date=20041116And some of the things we should say to our sons and grandsons about domestic violence: tapati.livejournal.com/543181.htmlDefendantRising, I fell in love with your mom when she immediately pelted your husband with peas when he uttered that ridiculous pronouncement (that unfortunately, we heard all the time in the Hare Krishna Movement too). I do wish someone had called 9-1-1 for you following the birth. I hope karma is just lying in wait for the best possible moment to nail this guy.
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maicde
Junior Member
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Post by maicde on Sept 28, 2010 6:16:12 GMT -5
Let me just say that I feel very sorry for all the pain and suffering the writer of this story went through.
With that said, it is plain to see that the husband of this story is a sick SOB. What he did is find another like-minded sicko SOB (the pastor who advocated corporal punishment for wives) who would wrap a religious doctrine to justify and endorse the abuse. There is nothing Godly or Christ-like about any of this and to even remotely suggest that it is sounds like sacrilege to me.
The more stories I read on NLQ, the more I am convinced that none of this abuse has to do with God, actually, it is more to do with very, very sick, sick, sick people who committed incredible acts of violence against their spouses and children under the guise of doing God's work, doing it for God, following God, whatever. The fact remains that this is all B.S.
The truth of the matter is that as soon as you run into a preacher that advocates corporal punishment for wives, you run like hell and you don't stop. That wasn't a "preacher" by the way, that was "For $2, I can make you a preacher too." That "preacher" did not go to any divinity school, he went to the Charles Manson School of Religion.
P.S. - for any of you posters, spare me the "you don't understand because you didn't grow up with this" mantra. Yeah, I did grow up with some of this and even I recognized that this was sh*t.
My only hope (and there's really only one) is for women to read this BEFORE they end up in the same strait as this poor woman and other women who write articles on NLQ.
Like I said, very little has to do with the bible, God, Christ; that is all a cover for full-out abuse committed by totally mental people who should not be out walking our streets. They should be incarcerated in prisons where they are brought out a few times a day to get the sh*t beat out of them and then sent back in. I have zero sympathy for people that can commit such barbaric acts towards spouses and kids under the guise of "religious freedom." Nonsense.
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Post by Sierra on Sept 28, 2010 9:29:39 GMT -5
P.S. - for any of you posters, spare me the "you don't understand because you didn't grow up with this" mantra. Yeah, I did grow up with some of this and even I recognized that this was sh*t. I really don't understand this comment. Which of "us posters" claims that the abuse we suffered in the name of God was a legitimate expression of Christianity? I'm an atheist now, but I fully understand that the patriarchal crap my pastor taught doesn't represent the faith as a whole. It sounds like you are belittling those of us who either couldn't see through the BS right away or didn't know how to disentangle ourselves when we did see it.
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Post by fabucat on Sept 28, 2010 9:56:58 GMT -5
Abusive men come in all colors, shapes, sizes, ethnicities and religions.
Nonetheless, I believe that this couple's religion enabled, no, ENCOURAGED, this man's abuse. Aside from a first world standard of living, please tell me how relations between the sexes in this denomination are any different from relations between Taliban men and women?
I am not anti-God, anti-Jesus, or anti-Christian.
Jesus Christ never beat a woman. Indeed, there's plenty of evidence that Jesus conferred personhood, equality and respect upon women. Even Paul, whose quotes about "women's place" are used by anti-feminists, travelled with female apostles. The fact that Christianity was a religion in which women gained some modicum of respect and autonomy is why it prevailed amongst the hundreds of other competing religions in the ancient world, which excluded all women as members.
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Post by liltwinstar on Sept 28, 2010 10:43:26 GMT -5
I agree that the behavior exhibited by Nate (and the other abusers we read about on NLQ) does not represent Christianity as a whole. However, some of us experienced Jesus/Christianity *as abuse* so it's really hard/almost impossible to separate the two. I really admire the women here who come out of these situations with their faith intact. But for me, that is not possible. I feel like a beaten puppy most of the time in regards to my faith - if you beat a dog enough, it will recoil from all human contact, even if a hand is reached out in love. I feel the same way about God/Jesus/Christianity. Clearly, the Jesus I was taught about is not the "real" Jesus, but my mind doesn't know that. It recoils from any mention/contact with anything even reminding me of God/Jesus, just becuase it doesn't want to get hurt again.
I figure, if there is a God, and if he is Jesus, he knows all about my past and doesn't hold it against me, if that makes sense. I think that faith is a gift, and it's not one I've been given right now. I'm ok with that.
In regards to what young women should be taught about abusive relationships, I think the most important thing would be to tell a young girl that if she's not happy in a relationship, that's reason enough to end it, right there. Also, I think teaching girls to be less "nice" would help too. Yes, manners are important, and compassion, and all of that. But just because a boy/man wants something from you doesn't mean you have to give it to him - I don't just mean sex, I mean, if you don't want to talk to him on the phone, you don't have to. You don't have to be his facebook friend, or whatever. I'm not saying that girls should go around being nasty, but they shouldn't have to be "nice" to the detriment of their own happiness. This has to be modeled by the family as well, because it doesn't do any good to tell your daughters to stand up for themselves when all they've seen in their whole life is their mother being a doormat to every male "authority" figure around.
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Post by anatheist on Sept 28, 2010 10:47:52 GMT -5
I really don't understand this comment. Which of "us posters" claims that the abuse we suffered in the name of God was a legitimate expression of Christianity? I believe that gender based abuse is a legitimate expression of Christianity, and to insist that it isn't is a delusion. That's a lot of the reason that I don't post much here anymore, because I know that my beliefs about Christianity are upsetting to some people. Don't get me wrong, I also think that non-abusive gender-equal worship is a legitimate expression of Christianity. But I think it's completely disingenuous to say that those who use Christianity against women are less sincere about following god or putting on an act in order to do what they want in god's name. Especially when one probably wouldn't say it about complimentarians. I think that Vyckie has even claimed that Warren was truly sincere about wanting to follow and obey god. I know that my ex-husband was a true believer. I have a problem with the attitude that everyone can interpret the Bible in their own way and find god in their own way except abusers. Their interpretation is just wrong, even though there is more support in the Bible for women as being lesser than men, than for many more touchy-feely things that people claim as part of their Christian faith, that no one here would challenge as "not the correct way". If you're not going to tell Christians how they have to practice their belief, then decry abuse without claiming that it can't be an expression of someone else's Christianity.
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