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Post by themomma on May 10, 2009 23:09:33 GMT -5
If you were involved in patriarchy AND there was abuse, was the belief that you could lose your salvation because of something you did or did not do? Was it a works-based salvation that was being taught?
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lectio
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Post by lectio on May 11, 2009 2:10:39 GMT -5
For me, yes, with the qualifier that "technically", the answer would be no. Heh...
Technically, I believed (in theological gobbly-de-gook) that my salvation was dependant on the sacrifice of Christ.
But in Real Life, I believed that if I was not obedient to the "spiritual covering" of my husband (think, an umbrella that protects you from the rain as long as you are under it, only in this case, the "covering" protects you from Satan---but only if you stay completely "under" it, submissive), then I was fair game for Satan.
If one chooses to step outside the covering and into Satan's territory, then there's a definite case for questioning that person's salvation (because if they truly belonged to God, they wouldn't go out into Satan's "rain," right?).
My husband brought my salvation into question, actually, the first time he "had a word from God" that (interestingly) gave him absolute dictatorship power over me. He expressed that he was fearful for my soul...expressed this with tears (I think even honest ones, though it's hard to say what he actually believed vs. what he lied-himself-into-believing vs. what he never believed at all but just did it to keep in power. Those are things I'll never really know...).
I remember choosing to believe that he had heard from God...I waffled for a bit...but I felt so ANGRY, so hateful towards him when he was saying those things to me "from God," that it did worry me that I was succumbing to "Satan's side." I remember when the click happened, when I chose to believe him. It was a click like the click of a door, or the shutting of a gate or the turning off of humming electric lights. I think it's the same thing that happens to people who join cults...you just shut off your brain and be obedient.
So yes, I would say that my submission/obedience was related to my salvation...though I wouldn't have said that at the time. It was very much performance based. One of the favorite verses was, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." If you don't love God, you're not one of His children... So you PROVE that you love Jesus by doing everything He said to do...and in the case of a conservative woman taught that God says she has to obey her husbands wishes, commands and vision, that includes submission to her husband. That said, I would have jumped up and down to vehemently protest being told I believed in a works-based salvation.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on May 11, 2009 9:52:26 GMT -5
I completely relate to what you've written here, Molly.
I did believe in "eternal security" ~ however, there was always that "leanness of the soul" threat which kept me quivering at the thought that I might miss out on "God's best" for my life. And I, too, would have been thoroughly put out at the suggestion that my Christian life was legalistic or works-based ~ no, I'd have insisted it was all about grace and relationship.
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Post by kisekileia on May 11, 2009 23:43:26 GMT -5
I never bought into full-blown patriarchy, but I was involved in a patriarchal church, and I was spiritually abused (mostly outside that church, but I now realize the church's doctrines were pretty poisonous as well). My church believed that you could never lose your salvation, so if someone had claimed to be a Christian and then rejected Christianity, they must never have been saved in the first place.
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Post by themomma on May 12, 2009 12:52:23 GMT -5
I think it is almost amusing (if it wasn't so damaging) the hoops people jump through to try and make the bible fit their beliefs.
About 4 years ago I learned about "rightly dividing". For the first time the bible actually made sense (you all know there is no way we can take and do everything there).
It restored my faith in God and the veracity of the bible. It really opened the bible up in a way I wouldn't have believed if I hadn't personally been involved.
People take the bible and pervert it to the point it is really useless, unless you are using it for things like bolstering your position on something like patriarchy.
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Post by arietty on May 15, 2009 6:42:41 GMT -5
I answered Yes, I could lose my salvation. However if you had asked me that question I would have strenuously denied that any of my belief was works based. I would deny this despite working myself into a frenzy to be good enough for god.
I remember reading once in some QF publication that we were not to judge other christians who did not eschew the things we eschewed because they were not called to do so and were not accountable the way we were (superiority). Once we suspected something was wrong we were accountable to get rid of it. Once we suspected God might expect something from us we were accountable to do it.
Every month magazines and newsletters would come into my home from QF or homeschooling sources, or fundy ministries. And every one of those magazines would be about what was WRONG with the world and how we had to get rid of it. Once you had read this you had to do something about it or you would be in disobedience to God. The stuff I got rid of! The beautiful irreplaceable books given to me as a child by now-dead relatives, given to me with love but I threw them all away. One was about Native American mythology, of course that had to go. My dear uncle gave me that one. Others had witches in them, or rebellious children, or children who made plans without consulting their parents. Anything with magic--there goes years of lovingly picked out gifts by my Grandparents. A book of Walt Whitman's erotic poetry I bought in school, of course that was tossed. And on and on..
I did balk once though, a newsletter came in from some Homeschoolers in Ohio (I think) that talked about how children's books that had animals that talked were VERY BAD. Probably tied it in with evolution, LOLOL.. well I couldn't swallow that one, we would have had nothing left! Poor Beatrix Potter!
And then there was all the modest clothing, the frugality to the point of ridiculousness, the endless self denial. Don't even get me started on music.
WTF was it all for? If I really didn't think my salvation would depend on it why was I so intense about it? Really, I was afraid of God. Once you heard something was wrong if you didn't get rid of it or change it you were a jezebel. If you loved God you would get rid of it so if held onto this worldly stuff you obviously didn't love God and exactly how far did that leave you from not being saved?
I have a QF friend who thinks if she puts her children in school she will be going against her conviction and will be no better than a heathen. Her children are completely uneducated, barely literate and very innumerate, right up through their teens. She can't change her mind though because if you go against what God has told you to do you will end up like Jonah or worse.
So.. works based faith? YES. But don't expect anyone to admit it because they are brainwashed and truly believe they do all this out of love for God, manifesting in obedience.
btw, I have replaced some of my thrown away books that had meaning to me because of the giver. I know it's not the same book but I can overlook that, I see the book and it reminds me of the care a relative took in choosing it for me.
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aimai
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Post by aimai on May 15, 2009 6:58:56 GMT -5
Works v. Faith and Grace,
This is such an interesting discussion. I've had this “argument” lots of times over at some quivering blogs and I could never figure out just how contorted their logic was on this point. Because as you say they live their lives according to a works based model in which they have to do certain things in order to prove, or to get, god's love. And yet they strongly deny it and assert that they depend entirely on grace. The more your argue the more they get angry and deny. Words like “legalism” or “idolatry” crop up over and over again but are rigidly rejected although they are demonstrating both at all times. And even worse, from a human perspective, these women are expressing the most severe pain and anxiety and anger with their situations, their husbands, and their children but they turn that anger on themselves and declare themselves simultaneously most worthy, and totally unworthy, of god's free will gift of grace. Sometimes reading your accounts, and the accounts of women still in the movement, I'm moved to tears myself. Its the very definition of pathetic—creating pathos and empathy simultaneously—to read women talking about how fearful they are of the oncoming pregnancy, and how they need to give up all their weakness to god, and they need to dedicate their suffering to god, because otherwise he won't love them like he doesn't love/hates and abominates all those independent feminist women out there. Suddenly, come to find out, their conviction that they are saved turns out to be pretty damned conditional.
aimai
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on May 15, 2009 7:27:06 GMT -5
This thread really touches a sore spot for me. aimai ~ you are so right about how pathetic it really is for the women who at once feel worthless and specially worthy. I've been thinking about this quite a lot lately ~ and your comment has now inspired me to write a post about it ~ first chance I get. arietty ~ I did the same thing ~ destroyed and threw away all my "worldly" music and books. And I honestly was convinced that I could not lose my salvation ~ and would argue (well, not exactly argue ~ because, you know ~ I was never the argumentative sort ) from the scriptures with anyone who wasn't absolutely sure of their eternal security. So ~ in my mind it was never about losing my salvation ~ it was just as you described ~ if I really loved God then of course I was going to do WHATEVER He asked of me. Though He slay me ... How many times did I repeat those words to myself?
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Post by arietty on May 15, 2009 7:41:52 GMT -5
arietty ~ I did the same thing ~ destroyed and threw away all my "worldly" music and books. And I honestly was convinced that I could not lose my salvation ~ and would argue (well, not exactly argue ~ because, you know ~ I was never the argumentative sort ) from the scriptures with anyone who wasn't absolutely sure of their eternal security. So ~ in my mind it was never about losing my salvation ~ it was just as you described ~ if I really loved God then of course I was going to do WHATEVER He asked of me. Though He slay me ... How many times did I repeat those words to myself? And if you didn't do it.. I never really did the backslidden thing I kept hearing about. One day I believed it all and one day I didn't. Or rather.. one day I just didn't care any more. I didn't care about my salvation, things were very shitty right here and I wanted to change that NOW and not just wait until I was dead to enjoy myself and feel the freedom to exist.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on May 15, 2009 7:58:09 GMT -5
I never really did the backslidden thing I kept hearing about. One day I believed it all and one day I didn't. Or rather.. one day I just didn't care any more. I didn't care about my salvation, things were very shitty right here and I wanted to change that NOW and not just wait until I was dead to enjoy myself and feel the freedom to exist. Oh!!! Me too! Me too! I never wavered for a moment in all the 25 years of my Christian walk ~ and then all at once I just tossed it aside ~ God, Jesus and all. Can't wait to get to that part in my story. Interestingly, it was C.S. Lewis who persuaded me to reject supernaturalism ~ and King Solomon who gave me permission to just go ahead and enjoy life now.
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lectio
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Post by lectio on May 15, 2009 12:17:24 GMT -5
Oh my gosh, Vyckie, that was my total motto, too. I even had it pasted up on my fridge!
Nuts...
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Post by kisekileia on May 15, 2009 15:47:16 GMT -5
Arietty, I know exactly what you mean. The fear of God being displeased, of being "not right with God" even if you're still "saved"...it's a very easy way for people to manipulate each other into more and more restricted lifestyles. I still have that fear, even about issues where I've changed my mind.
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jennie
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Post by jennie on Sept 30, 2009 10:15:14 GMT -5
The fear of God being displeased, of being "not right with God" even if you're still "saved"...it's a very easy way for people to manipulate each other into more and more restricted lifestyles. I still have that fear, even about issues where I've changed my mind. Yes, it took me years to get that fear based thinking out of my head. I still have faith in God, and I still have friendships with some Christians, but I don't feel comfortable in Christian groups anymore. It seems like as soon as they start to congregate, the manipulation starts in some way or another. Maybe I just haven't found the right group. I really like Wayne Jacobson (http://www.thegodjourney.com/) and The Free Believers Network (http://freebelievers.com/). They talk a lot about coming out of legalism and just resting in God's love.
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Post by anatheist on Oct 19, 2009 0:15:29 GMT -5
My experiences have been very similar to lectio's.
When I was going through the divorce, my former best friend took the position that since I was going to be in persistent disobedience to god by being divorced, then my salvation was in question - because a real (TM) Christian would be convicted by ongoing sin. Therefore, the only way to be certain of my Christianity would be to stop the divorce proceedings and go back to my husband in apologetic submission.
The backsliding/"loss of salvation" concept is interesting to me. Most of my former friends and churchmates (it's kind of sad that I have to preface all these friendships with "former") take the position that I was NEVER a Christian - because they believe in once saved, always saved, so it's impossible that I could have ever truly believed.
My parents, who have more emotionally invested, are determined to believe that I am only backslidden, that my disbelief is due to rebellion or not wanting to repent of sins, and that I'm just upset with god and the church.
I find both these positions somewhat insulting, although I have sympathy for my parents. What is certain is that NO ONE who is a Christian in my life is willing to accept that I used to believe and now I don't.
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Post by susan on Jan 3, 2010 16:37:33 GMT -5
Hi, I just learned about this site through someone at UnschoolingGodJourney, and it's been so educational. I'd started my parenting journey as a conservative Christian -- but dh and I have gradually been getting more and more liberal in our theology.
This thread reminds me of a shock I got from one of my quiverful/patriarchal friends a while back. She was telling me about how her brother's wife had left him and they were divorced now.
She said it was so sad for her because she wanted everyone to make it to Heaven. And this was so shocking to me, since it seemed like her sis-in-law's decision to divorce had my friend actually questioning her salvation.
I didn't delve, 'cause I knew she was so close to her brother -- but then she was also very close to his wife so it seemed weird that she'd be so ready to assume she wasn't going to Heaven.
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Post by journey on Jan 4, 2010 2:16:55 GMT -5
Yes, Susan. Though the movement would be quick to say it's not works-based (and I truly think most of the people in the movement really do believe that they believe in salvation by grace through faith), the quickness at which people are assumed to "not be Christians" if they fail to perform the proper "works" required can be astonishing.
They can say it's not works-based all they want, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, well...
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