Post your introductions here ;-)

[Vyckie D. Garrison]

Hello! Welcome to NLQ forums. This is the place to get to know one another ~ so please start by posting an intro.

NOTE: The first time that you post your introduction, go to the VERY TOP of this section ~ the heading above should read:

No Longer Quivering ‹(ô¿ô)› :: Introduce yourself please ‹(ô¿ô)› :: Introduce yourself please ‹(ô¿ô)›

From the top right corner, choose "New Thread" ~ please make sure that you ARE NOT replying to someone else's introduction when you post your own. Please put your name or nickname in the subject line ~ make it YOUR thread ;-) We'd like each new member to have their own separate post ~ that way we can say, "Hi" to you personally ;-)

What I'm hoping for is that EACH MEMBER will have their own thread with their name or nickname in the subject line. Thanks for your help!

[latraviata]

A voice from the old world.
I am a retired 60 year old European female atheist with a PhD in psychology. Sorry for my poor English it is not my first language
How I got on this blog is a long story, but I would like to express my admiration for two very courageous ladies, Vicky and Laura!
Religion doesn't play a role of any significance in my secular country. So it is very hard to understand, why intelligent people put so much energy in seeking spriritual guidance and life rules in religion(s)
I am glad Vicky and Laura you are seeking now within yourselves, I understand it is not the easiest way, but so much better than submitting to rules and regulations within a religion which are so demanding and strict that nobody could humanly possible live up to it wthout being in constant fear or quilt.
Bon courage!!!!

[AustinAvery]

For your tech people, the words above the opening post are in purple, and given my poor old eyes, are unreadable against the otherwise lovely green background. Is there anyway you could make those letter white, maybe (and I'm not picky here, egg shell, ivory, whatever makes them show up). ;D

[lucyricardo]

Always one to follow instructions (I would have been an ideal quiverer) but I can't find the "start new thread" in the upper right hand corner that you describe. So I hope replying here gets me started on this forum.

My daughter introduced me to this blog yesterday and I have spent much of time on it since, and will probably spend a good part of today on it too. I'm fascinated on so many levels. I'm SO happy to hear that you both have found your way out of this dysfunctional lifestyle. And thank you for starting this wonderful blog, and providing a list of resources.

A bit about me: I was raised in a conservative Christian home, with a loving mother who felt that we should never talk about uncomfortable or unhappy things or "air our dirty laundry." My father was remote, especially during my teen years, and died when I was 17. I was always looking for love (yes - in all the wrong places). I was always active at church and believed what I was told.

I strayed from the Lord, but always had that sense of guilt within me for doing so. I came back - out of fear and guilt - after reading Late, Great Planet Earth. I began praying for a good Christian man to marry, and in short order met the man who would be my husband. He asked me to marry him the second time we met, and we were married within three months. Shockingly, we are still "together" after 37 years of marriage.

However.....I identify with so much that you have been through: The desire for that perfect home; my firm belief that my purpose here was to honor the lord, be a witness by all I do and say, be a Proverbs 31 woman, and an example to my children, and submissive to my husband. I also had the belief and acceptance that if something was wrong in the marriage or home, it was my fault in some way.

The short story is that although there were moments of happiness, and I loved being a mom (except during my daughters' teenage years) I went through many many times when I felt very much like an accessory to my husband - similar to a chair or a briefcase - and not at all as a cherished or loved partner. I finally recognized, after 26 years of marriage that I was exactly that. In the meantime, I was very active at an evangelical church - as a volunteer, youth leader, choir member, and eventually, a paid secretary.

(It's hard to sum up one's life in a few paragraphs, but I'll try). Short story: 10 years ago I picked up Patricia Evans book, the Verbally Abusive Relationship, and was shocked to find myself and my situation on every page. I began to open my eyes to reality, both in my marriage, and in the church, where I saw both the public version and the real inside story of issues. It's been a hard, painful, emotional journey from striving for and BELIEVING in the whole perfect idyllic home and family/Christian life, to where I am today, which is pretty much not believing any of it.

I am still with my husband - a conscious decision on my part - but I have no illusion that this is a real marriage. We get along great now, as pals, but it's because I have given up ALL expectations of him. I'm sometimes pleasantly surprised, and I'm content in this lifestyle. I have a full-time job, and I live an independent life, mentally and emotionally, if not entirely physically.

I'm happy to say that my daughters are both feminists. My older daughter has no intention of getting married, and I fully support that! My younger daughter is married to a wonderful man, who is very much an active participant in parenting their two children: one born to them, and one adopted.

I have many friends in the conservative Christian church (most of whom don't know of my defection/apostasy) who homeschool and keep many of the tenets of the QF movement. I'm fascinated by the Duggers, and watch the TLC programs that they are a part of. I do find myself wondering what will become of the children raised in this movement. Will they do what many of us ultimately end up doing: rebelling against our upbringing and going the other way? Or will they become what the proponents of the QF lifestyle are hoping: more conservative Republicans who will sway the balance?

I'm very curious to hear about Angel's experiences. Perhaps you explain it fully in this blog and I just haven't found it yet.

Anyway, this is me. I'm excited to have found this site, and congratulate you both on escaping, finding your true selves, and being a positive and honest voice for sanity. You are appreciated!

[grandmalou]

Welcome, lucyricardo;
So sorry we are late in answering your beautiful intro...has been crazy on board lately!
But we are so happy to have you with us, and would ask you to please forgive and join us in more good, and hopefully healthy discussions!
Blessings;
Grandma Lou

[arietty]

Lucyricardo thankyou for your very interesting intro!

I have encouraged my daughters that marriage is not a goal or a given and one of them currently says she has no intention of ever getting married. I am happily married (second time) myself but I consider my partnership a rare thing. My partner's upbringing was quite fundamentalist, though mainstream and he is now intensely apathetic about most things christian though still would call himself one.

[Vyckie D. Garrison]

Lucy ~ I read "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" too. Seemed to me like Evans' whole point was, "It's all about control" ~ which, I argued to myself, was not actually the case with my husband ~ he really meant well ~ it's just that he had so much to overcome (blindness, lack of education, etc.) ...

In the very last chapter of the book, I finally realized ~ It really WAS all about control. Once my eyes were opened to "get it" ~ that truth is now fairly obvious and I can hardly believe that I didn't see it for all the years of our relationship. Ugh!!

[greenish]

I found your site after being called an elitist by a group of unassisted homebirth advocates. Don't fret, my feelings are not crushed.

I was raised in a conservative Christian home where the man's word was THE WORD. I remember wishing that I had been born male so that I could have a voice. I felt worthless because I was not pretty enough, could not sing well enough, and my father was not rich enough for me to be one of the preferred girls in church.

My brother physically abused me and it was summed up to, "he doesn't know his own strength" and "boys will be boys." I suspect there was other abuse, but I refuse to dredge it out of my subconcious.

I have not been a Christian for several years, but I almost fell into the QF trap and unassisted childbirth about a decade ago. My husband and I had 3 boys and wanted a daughter. He got a vasectomy reversal and we decided to have as many children as God wanted to give us. I had also decided that I would have my children at home in a tub (hey, it sounded romantic and I had done natural childbirth and a VBAC).

Well, life is funny and things do not always go as planned. I had developed some serious gyn problems and was very close to getting a hysterectomy. One night at a prayer meeting, they laid hands on me and informed me that the Yug-Hi-Oh (I probably spelled that wrong) cards and Harry Potter books that I allowed my sons to have were bringing demon influences on my body. I left that meeting realizing that my friends were nuttier than a bowl of mixed nuts and started to look for a better answer concerning my health problems than "it's demons."

Fast forwarding a few years, I eventually did get pregnant and secretly planned an unassisted homebirth. I took good care of myself, kept daily track of my BP, monitored my urine, and kept all the prenatal testing at a minimum. As my due date approached, I sensed something was wrong and gave up on my romantic free birth ideals. It was a good thing that I did because my daughter would have most likely died if I had not agreed to a c-section.

I think what woke me up was the fact that if I had insisted on having my baby at home and on my own, she would have died. If I had decided that I would continue to have more babies, I would require surgical births for all of them because of my classical uterine scar. What is romantic about that?

If I had listened to my parents, stayed home, and had all those babies, I don't think I would be alive. I think I would have killed myself.

[Vyckie D. Garrison]

Welcome, Greenish ~ and thanks so much for your intro. It really fascinates me to learn how differently women respond to QF and other cultic ideas ~ seems that your willingness to trust your own instincts overrides your desire for approval and to fit in with the elite group of women who are doing things "the right way." That's a rare quality among women ~ or maybe it's only rare among the women that I've known. Seems to me that from birth we are conditioned to distrust ourselves and our intuition.

Aug 22, 2009 23:33:58 GMT -5 greenish said:

Well, life is funny and things do not always go as planned. I had developed some serious gyn problems and was very close to getting a hysterectomy. One night at a prayer meeting, they laid hands on me and informed me that the Yug-Hi-Oh (I probably spelled that wrong) cards and Harry Potter books that I allowed my sons to have were bringing demon influences on my body. I left that meeting realizing that my friends were nuttier than a bowl of mixed nuts and started to look for a better answer concerning my health problems than "it's demons."

Bravo!

There was a time early in my Christian life that I developed a weird fear of my toilet ~ go ahead and laugh, it really was bizarre. Especially at night, whenever I had to go to the bathroom, my heart would race and I felt like I was in a horror movie ~ I could almost hear the creepy music and I was really afraid that something horrible was going to happen to me while I was using the toilet. Maybe a hand would reach up and grab me?

Of course, I knew my fear was silly ~ and so I would quote verses to myself (He has not given us a spirit of fear, but of love, power and a sound mind ~ did I get that right? I've been deliberately forgetting bible verses lately as part of my deprogramming process ~ LOL) and I would pray ~ but still, there was that fear. Finally, I told the pastor's wife about the fear ~ and her response was to come to my apartment and anoint my toilet with oil and cast out the demons.

So I'm standing in my bathroom with my eyes closed as the pastor's wife is praying in tongues over my toilet ~ and the ridiculousness of it all hit me ~ and I had the most awful time keeping a straight face while this little ritual was in process. After she left ~ I just had to laugh hysterically.

But hey ~ after that, I had no problems with the toilet ~ all fear was gone. LOL

I have no point in telling that story ~ except that when I read about your prayer meeting, I remembered the time that the pastor's wife anointed my toilet with oil. Pure silliness, huh?

I'm proud of you for not getting rid of your Harry Potter books. I actually did throw away every item (records, books, etc.) which did not honor God and which the devil might use as a gateway into my home ~ ugh.

[simplystina09]

Hi Vyckie,
I found this blog through reading about Anna Duggar's pregnancy online and I saw a comment you posted that linked to your blog. I was hooked. I read all there was to read about you and Laura's stories. I've been a faithful reader ever since March.

I'm 23, college grad, working within my field of Graphic Design and I'm engaged. Your blog has shown me the extremes of Christianity that I didn't know was a movement. I didn't know many people practice this lifestyle. I just thought that was the Duggars or a select group of people like my future sister-in-law who is waiting until marriage for her first kiss. My fiance is 1 of 11. He was raised in a relatively strict Evangelical Christian home. But all the kids went to Public school and most all went or are attending college or a secondary school. His Sister wasn't taught this "no kissing" before marriage but decided it was the way God wanted her to be. I was confused by this idea, then I saw the Duggars, then I found this blog.

I think the Duggars glamorize Patriarchy and childbearing etc. My immediate thought was this is ridiculous! I don't think a child's job is to raise their brothers and sisters. But they all seemed so happy. As I watched them I even thought to myself is this what a good Christian person does? God does provide for these people. But then I was directed to your blog. And my initial feeling of this lifestyle is crazy was put back into my head. I don't think that I ever could have actually lived the Quiverful movement but the Duggars did have it in my head that they were good Christians being rewarded by God because they have no debt and can maintain a family of that size. When really, logically, they made the way themselves because they lived very modestly and never took out loans or anything. I do believe in God but I don't believe I have to be a living sacrifice for my husband or my future children. Every person is equal in the eyes of God. Erica a guess writer on No Longer Quivering sent me some Bible equality links and I really enjoyed reading them and it reassured the beliefs I've held all along.

Thank you for telling your story. Your honesty made my logic kick back in about what is right and what isn't. I'm excited to see where revealing your story leads you and your family!

[lionwoman]

Hi everyone, I found this blog through the parenting in gentleness blog. I am so sorry she took it down and hope she will have it back up one day, lots of great food for thought there.

Wow Vyckie you have quite a story to tell, I am looking forward to seeing your book in print. I guess this patriarchy/quiverfull life works well for some people and not for others. Just like a lot of other things work well for some and not others. It's a shame that people have to try to say that what works for them should work for everyone, it's just not true.

Vyckie I will also say I am sorry that your entire Christian faith seemed to have been based on this quiverfull/patriarchy nonsense, since you claim to be an apostate and an athiest. Because IMO the Q and P isn't really Christian, it's just a preference some people have that they try to declare unequivocally Christian.

I hope you will look for further answers as to who God really is. I invite you to come over and visit us at freebelievers.com.

Best to you!

[grandmalou]

Welcome to you, Lionwoman...
Wow! We are growing here.
We look forward to each new person, and to hearing their stories.

[arietty]

The toilet story is completely hilarious!! I would like a whole thread dedicated to such demon-fear lunacy. My church went trough a big spiritual warfare stage and I have a lot of bizarre stories from it. I never actually believed it, though I did take on fear about it, in case it was true.

[auntbee]

WOW! I just found this site a few days ago. I find it VERY interesting. I was definitely influenced by the Quiverfull movement in the eighties. My husband and i had eight children. (although one has died) I think the main influence for me, was to see children as a blessing, and to be open to having more than the usual 2. I enjoyed being pregnant tremendously, my husband is amazingly kind and supportive. I never embraced the view that one must never use BC. We have used BC , althuogh it didn't always work. LOL. -- I have homeschooled the kids until they were in high school, at which time they all went to public school. (still have 2 at home.) That has worked quiet well for us! I never believed in isolating them in any way, and they all had activites - sports, music, etc. -- I have NEVER been involved in any type of Christian homeschooling group. For reasons i could not articulate at the time, most of them just gave me the creeps, and an uneasy feeling. I NEVER got into any of the super restrictive child training programs, and felt somewhat uncomfortable around the few i knew who did, just because my small children were normal, boisterous, interrupting, quarreling, etc. I LOVE friends, and am very close to moms that do every kind of schooling, and none of us judge each other at all. -- I do some ministry reaching out to cult members, and it is scary when you see pockets of orthodox Christians take on cult like characteristics. -- I look forward to reading more of the intros, and the rest of the blog as i have time!!

[jemand]

welcome aunt bee! I hope you enjoy it here!

[auntbee]

THis is a very important point that Lionwoman made: " Because IMO the Q and P isn't really Christian, it's just a preference some people have that they try to declare unequivocally Christian."
I couldn't agree with that more. There are whole countries and denominations of Christians that never even heard of QF.

Atheism is very common among those who have been through severe spiritual abuse. You see this all the time in those who were in cults, and experienced an awakening. They realize how mcuh they had been deceived, taken advantage of, used ,etc. It takes a very long time to heal from this. Many become atheists, at least for a time, and some are able to make adjustments in their theology, with a greater emphasis on grace.

[Sierra]

Dec 14, 2009 14:09:48 GMT -5 auntbee said:

THis is a very important point that Lionwoman made: " Because IMO the Q and P isn't really Christian, it's just a preference some people have that they try to declare unequivocally Christian."
I couldn't agree with that more. There are whole countries and denominations of Christians that never even heard of QF.

Atheism is very common among those who have been through severe spiritual abuse. You see this all the time in those who were in cults, and experienced an awakening. They realize how mcuh they had been deceived, taken advantage of, used ,etc. It takes a very long time to heal from this. Many become atheists, at least for a time, and some are able to make adjustments in their theology, with a greater emphasis on grace.

Except that QF/P ideals find ample support using Scripture. A literal reading of the Bible turns up such gems as "wives, submit yourselves to your husbands." Patriarchal ideas are embedded in the Bible; the only way to root them out is to treat them as cultural accessories tagged onto the central message.

Some of us become atheists because, having analyzed the problems that faced us in extreme forms of Christianity, we realized that they were simply extensions of its core teachings. I reject Christianity because I think the sacrificial metaphor upon which the entire faith is based is flawed. I reject 'grace' because it implies original sin and the substitution of a sacrifice - both ideas I can't condone. I think it's poor engineering on the part of the Christian god to design a self-destructive world that requires violence and anguish to periodically correct. Emphasis on Christ's redemptive sacrifice only amplifies the failure of the original concept. I am left with the belief in a god who claims to love me but threatens me with unimaginable pain because I am a wretched sinner by nature (a nature created by him), then sacrifices himself to stay the consequences. It sounds like he's either not in control or he likes suffering. Either way that doesn't jive with my concept of the universe.

(Edited for syntax.)

[auntbee]

Hi SIerra - I know there are verses and passages from Scripture that QF bases its teachings on. But many Christians that believe in the Bible , don't believe their application, or outworking, would necessarily look like QF in all its minute details, 'rules', 'convictions', etc. As a matter of fact, many mainstream Christians believe there is a lot of variation in outworking of those types of verses, in the context of one's own spiritual journey, background ,culture, and situation. And we can have acceptance of each other, as these issues are not a test of fellowship, as some with a cult-like, spiritually snobbish mentality, make them. Also, not emphasizing some passages, to the neglect of others, and becoming unbalanced.
But it was interesting to read your views and thoughts on this. I'm new here, and just starting to get a feel for where people are coming from.

[Hillary]

Welcome, Katrina.

[journey]

Welcome, katrina!

[roo]

Hello everyone!

I'm a longtime reader (and lurker) who has been meaning to register for quite some time now.

Let's see, I'm a fairly recent college graduate, a Californian currently "stuck" in New York. I don't have any personal experience with Christian fundamentalism, but I'm strangely fascinated by qf, etc. I grew up in a relatively liberal Episcopalian household, though my diocese is one of the few that has recently broken away in protest over such shocking things as women (and gay) priests and gay marriage blessings. Our bishop didn't/doesn't allow women to be priests but our church rector trained a few on the sly! I was pretty religious up until my sophomore or junior year of (all-girls) Catholic (boarding) school, though I really value the experience because it gave me a pretty solid religious/philosophical education. I am now am one of those spiritual but not religious people, currently flirting with Buddhism.

[xara]

Welcome Roo.

[Jenna]

I stumbled across the NLQ website through a link to an article on Jim-Bob and Michelle Duggar from a Facebook group. Similar to watching a car wreck or the downward spiral of a celebrity fixture, my interest has been piqued and I am so incredibly curious as to this lifestyle that has been portrayed as wholesome and devout (but seems to be just the opposite).

I won't go into great detail here about how religion played a great yet destructive role in my upbringing; in a nutshell, I have struggled with my religious identity for years, dealing with extremely Catholic grandparents, a mother who was confused herself about what role religion should play in her own family, an athiest father, and several years of bible camp that ultimately turned my heart away from the God I thought I knew.

I look forward to reading everyone's stories and experiences!

[WanderingOne]

Hi Jenna! Welcome.

[Tor]

I've been reading this site for awhile now, and just recently decided to join.

I'm 23 and a senior in college. I grew up in an abusive home, in a very conservative Christian environment, so while it was not really QF/P, there is a lot on this site that I find I relate to. The city I live in is a very small, Christianish city that at times seems like a throwback to the 1950s in terms of its values and lifestyle.

I think being in that abusive home, though, was actually what gave me just the smallest ability to see how wrong a lot of the beliefs that Christians in my area espoused; I was not sheltered, I did not fit the rigid gender roles that the Christian community around me enforced, and I did not have the same kind of privilege to take on the "us" vs "them" mentality - especially since a lot of times I was the "them." I knew something was wrong, but because there was no other side presented to me, I had nothing else to believe. It wasn't until the internet that I finally was able to find the words to pinpoint how destructive these rigid standards are, and how much it both reinforced and excused the abuse that I went through. Being one of the rare Christian public schoolers (if you are a "true" Christian in my community, you homeschool) was also helpful in putting me on the outside of a lot of things.

Even now I though have to deal with exhausting battles about removing myself from toxic family members by Christians who make it seem as though mental/physical/sexual abuse is justifiable and forgivable, but not forgiving and not "reconciling" destine you for God's anger and hellfire. Sometimes it seems like in my community's universe, God is far more forgiving if you are someone who does truly despicable things (bonus points if you throw yourself into church work afterwards, because then your testimony is the prodigal) rather than if you are angry or hurt or unforgiving about being the victim of these things.

I still am a Christian, but I'm really struggling in my faith because I can no longer believe the vast majority of what my fellow Christians around me believe, and it makes things very confusing and convoluted as I attempt to figure out what is real, and what has been all lies.

This site has actually been very helpful for me, (especially "Does the Patriarchy Glorify God", thank you for that. I've never been able to imagine myself submitting to a husband who has all power and control, and my father held the submission scripture over my mother's head so much that I can't even hear the term without cringing). This site has helped me consider that maybe I'm not the crazy one, that I'm not the one in the wrong for feeling hurt or angry or unforgiving. I'm slowly beginning to be vocal about what I went through, and this site has encouraged me to really believe in the importance of not letting my experiences get swept under the rug, and be forgotten or justified. So thank you.

Sorry for the long ramble...