|
Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Sept 14, 2009 19:46:16 GMT -5
I met a lot of men over the years who were slowly transformed into domineering pricks by the submission of their wives. sierra ~ so true! And isn't it ironic, considering that the exact opposite is promised. The teaching is that by her submission, the wife can assist the Lord in transforming her man into a wonderful, loving, kind husband. NOTE: I've been thinking about this a lot lately and I CANNOT THINK OF A SINGLE INSTANCE in which a wife was able to win her husband over by her godly, submissive behavior. I'm just curious whether anyone can cite just one example of this promised transformation. Anyone? If you answer, "Yes" ~ I'd really love to hear your transformation story.
|
|
|
Post by grandmalou on Sept 14, 2009 20:26:32 GMT -5
I met a lot of men over the years who were slowly transformed into domineering pricks by the submission of their wives. sierra ~ so true! And isn't it ironic, considering that the exact opposite is promised. The teaching is that by her submission, the wife can assist the Lord in transforming her man into a wonderful, loving, kind husband. NOTE: I've been thinking about this a lot lately and I CANNOT THINK OF A SINGLE INSTANCE in which a wife was able to win her husband over by her godly, submissive behavior. I'm just curious whether anyone can cite just one example of this promised transformation. Anyone? If you answer, "Yes" ~ I'd really love to hear your transformation story. "Yer Maw" here... 100% stupidest lie I ever heard. Seems like the nicer you are, the more rotten they get. No sh--, Sherlock. Oh...except Grandpa, of course. But then, they just don't make them like that one any more. BTW...Kidly, I want to have the time to make you one of those barfing smiley thingys! LOL Hey, y'all got some real lively posts going here! Love to all, Mom ;D
|
|
|
Post by arietty on Sept 14, 2009 23:32:36 GMT -5
I have only seen this in testimonies in magazines NEVER in real life.
A QF friend married to an immature prick confided to me once, "the more you are a doormat the more they step on you." She is still in a believer in patriarchy but has given it up as far as her own husband goes.
Why do we think it is appropriate to set boundaries with children, friends, people we work with, interfering family members.. but totally unacceptable to set boundaries with a husband?
|
|
lectio
Full Member
growing...
Posts: 128
|
Post by lectio on Sept 15, 2009 0:27:18 GMT -5
The "real life stories" I've seen where "a miracle happened" don't include an actual FULL ON change. I can think of these real life examples: 1. The husband stops hitting his wife....but he's still controlling and feels entitled to continue being controlling. 2. The man was extremely angry and abusive, and moderated down to being sometimes angry and abusive. The thing is, these Christian women don't know that the men are still abusive, because their definition of abuse, which pretty much is reduced to "beating" only, is skewed, having learned from their camp's marriage books that a husband telling a wife what to do is GOOD and GODLY. They are so used to super bad that when it's just bad, they think it's wonderful. ...That, and the women believe they may never ever divorce, so if you think about it that way, hey, it *is* a miracle. The quality of the rest of their life just got a lot better, because a medium amount of abuse is obviously better than a large amount of abuse, you know? But in both cases that I know of in real life, the men did not actually *change.* They changed some outward behavior, but the underlying problem never went away. And the women weren't as abused as they were previously, but they were still in an abusive situation, and as the years went by, the toll it took on their psychological and physical health was evident. What is weird, though, is that I literally could not see this prior to coming out of patriarchy and learning what abuse actually was. Before that time, I saw their stories as true testimonies and true miracles and I used their stories to encourage both myself and others. It's so strange how I look now, through (what I consider to be) a more educated and aware lens and shake my head at the sadness, particularly at what the children have to grow up with in these homes.
|
|
|
Post by Sierra on Sept 15, 2009 8:11:22 GMT -5
These are the types of men and the changes I have seen in them as their wives delved deeper into the submissive lifestyle:
1. A fussy man who liked his space to be spotless but was more inclined to clean things himself than ask for help - his nitpicking became house law. The wife felt it was her responsibility to keep everything perfect and exhausted herself trying to beat him to the cleaning of everything. This, of course, meant that he felt restless with nothing to fix and looked harder for things to nitpick about. This man never joined the QF/P brigade (his wife went to church without him), so his behavior didn't really change that much.
2. An easygoing man who was inclined to defer to his wife's preferences in everything - his happy-go-lucky attitude became very, very sober. He seemed to feel pressed to take authority in things he'd really rather let his wife decide. Unused to being deferred to on every point, he searched for ways to be authoritative and came up with some pretty arbitrary "commands" for his family. He did reluctantly join in the church with his wife and positioned himself as a sort of junior member of the male hierarchy. He always seemed a little uncomfortable with the authority placed on him. As a young woman, I always thought he was remarkably respectful to me when we spoke. He was a good husband and father despite trying to be a patriarch when it was against his nature.
3. A very passive man who liked to putter in the garden and make fine coffee for himself and really couldn't be fussed about anything his family decided to do. His wife made a huge show of being home promptly by 5 o'clock to get his dinner ready, and kept the house spotless "for his sake," even though he was not the type to make demands at all. He was relatively strict with his sons, but kind to me and his daughter. His whole attitude seemed to be, "Submit to me if you must, but do it your way."
4. An abusive man (my father) who was not in the church and liked to be the absolute monarch of the home. He actually grew more and more abusive over time. His demands grew heavier every year, and his comments crossed more and more boundaries. When I was growing up, for example, he never complained about food that was served to him as long as it wasn't "weird." These past two years, he finally crossed the line of telling my mother he didn't like the way she made her favorite dish (which she'd made for the entirety of their marriage the same way and he'd eaten with no problem). He also started making genuinely evil remarks about her appearance and mind (telling her that he was "concerned" that she might lose her mental facilities like my grandfather - who by the way has only the mildest dementia in his 80s). Submission taught her that she had to accept literally everything he threw at her and this "love" would ultimately transform him. Sure, it did - it transformed him from a petty tyrant to a raging egomaniac.
|
|
|
Post by pennygirl on Sept 15, 2009 18:42:34 GMT -5
i think being Submissive can't work in "winning over a spouse or whatever the saying is" Because the submissiveness we all think of is the kind that comes with muttering under one's breath (or at least in their head) A compliant woman isn't one that does it joyfully.. I'm sorry, am judging here, but rather.. puts on an "act" .. her mind is wild with thoughts.. it is a form of "control" over the man and sorry men (people in general) aren't stupid They know this.. That syrupy sweet submissive love.. goes way deeper If this isn't the case for why it doesnt work.. then perhaps it twinges something in the Men that stirs up that rooster with a puffed out chest .. jah! I'm the man! A good man, in my book, is a strong person (of course) but also a tender heart.. compassion blah blah Being a submissive wifey doesn't stir that in a man.. but the opposite.. oh lawdy! Can't we all just get along without all these silly mind games?
|
|
lectio
Full Member
growing...
Posts: 128
|
Post by lectio on Sept 15, 2009 22:12:11 GMT -5
Because the submissiveness we all think of is the kind that comes with muttering under one's breath (or at least in their head)
A compliant woman isn't one that does it joyfully.. I'm sorry, am judging here, but rather.. puts on an "act" .. her mind is wild with thoughts.. it is a form of "control" over the man Hmmmm.... This may be true for some women...maybe even many? I don't know, but this wasn't true at all in my experience...not for those first years.
|
|
|
Post by philosophia on Sept 15, 2009 23:55:06 GMT -5
I have only seen this in testimonies in magazines NEVER in real life. A QF friend married to an immature prick confided to me once, "the more you are a doormat the more they step on you." She is still in a believer in patriarchy but has given it up as far as her own husband goes. Why do we think it is appropriate to set boundaries with children, friends, people we work with, interfering family members.. but totally unacceptable to set boundaries with a husband? I just had to laugh at this post because of my situation with an immature prick and boundaries. After I told him I was filing for divorce he brought home a book his therapist had given him on boundaries. (I assumed it was for HIS benefit.) He told me that I really needed to read the book because we were having problems because I had never set boundaries! My jaw practically dropped to the floor. This, from a man even casual observers could see is a bulldozer! Our entire marriage has been his destruction of my boundaries! Primal Scream! And yes, lectio, we are diligent to be happy and holy, like the Judy Rogers songs. Positively confessing our many blessings. I was so adamant about the positive talk that a friend finally told me that it was obvious that I was miserable because I spent so much energy talking up joyfulness.
|
|
|
Post by nikita on Apr 22, 2010 20:48:11 GMT -5
Well, I did see an example actually. I come from a sixties/seventies Jesus movement fundamentalist cult that did not join in the mainstream evangelical church world. We did not trust 'adults' or established religion, even other adult-led Jesus movement denominations/churches. We were determined to do it on our own with the bible. Mostly we did pretty okay, avoided the fads that made the rounds of other congregations. But we were a cult and very legalistic. And very young.
So when my friend married the assistant pastor (twenty five) at nineteen, we were still inventing the wheel so to speak. And both of these two were very strong personalities but we believed in a husband's headship and he very much believed that he had to be extra careful of any appearance of sin, not just not to sin but to leave it in no doubt. And he required much of my friend, he really ruled her and it was hard because she was such a strong personality. But she worked really hard at doing everything he said even when it was stupid (we thought). One thing that lasted about six months was that he ordered her to not be within six feet of another man/teenage boy. In a crowded communal situation and in church hours a day most of the week this was quite the challenge. Any of her friends who were nearby would form a human shield around her to keep the distance according to his orders. We would laugh and roll our eyes (as would she) because we knew it was ridiculous but 'what were you gonna do? she has to obey him'.
So after about a year of marriage this pastor got up and preached about headship in marriage. And he didn't refute it by any means, he still preached it, but he stood up there and confessed that he spent a year really lording it over his wife and she was really wonderful and tried really hard to do everything he said, very obedient and meek. But, he paused, she wasn't happy. She wasn't happy. And after a year he considered what he was doing and her obedience and her unhappiness and he decided he wanted his wife to be happy, and just because the bible says he can do something doesn't mean a) he has to do it to the extreme possible and b) we are supposed to honor and support each other and that includes married couples.
So this I would say is one example of a man changing his overbearing use of his position in scripture in response to his wife's trying to obey but being sad about her marriage. But he loved her, and we were not following books and outside 'leaders' that put the screws to those scriptures and locked folks into only one way of looking at this. We were discovering what was important and what were the limits of interpretation. Thank goodness.
|
|