|
Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Apr 2, 2010 17:05:48 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by arietty on Apr 2, 2010 18:06:11 GMT -5
Thanks Kiery for this great post Reading it I was thinking about how hard this life can be on adult women.. and then we go and place it on the backs of our young girls. While it's true that in a family crisis it IS good for everyone to pull together and for the older children to take over chores the problem is in a lot of QF families the "family crisis" is normal life. Maybe it felt like a crisis the first time it happened, a few months of mom chronically ill or depressed, or of a difficult pregnancy, or chicken pox laying low half the kids or finances so difficult mom has to work or run herself into the ground with a home business or.. but soon this level of crisis becomes normal life and and the pressure on the kids taking over parenting chores and roles is never ending. I just visited my QF friend recently and her life is in extreme crisis. The same crisis it has been in for the 20 years I have known her. Financial, horrible husband, sick all the time.. these days you can add teenagers to the crisis, teenagers who got sick to death of living in their parents generated crisis and and are now generating their own (and "not working properly" i.e. being slaves). And as you say so well, meanwhile these families are admired by many because everything looks so in control, children so helpful.. and of course no one dares say that life is really really hard.
|
|
|
Post by musicmom on Apr 2, 2010 19:25:15 GMT -5
Strange - I grew up with my sister and mother always telling me how irresponsible I was. Or, screaming it rather. Now, I look back and see that I was just being a normal kid and not taking on the overly responsible role that my sister had. But when I started to learn about the QF life, it seemed like the perfect chance to do it all again, and prove to everyone just how responsible I really was! Well, I didn't see it that way, of course. But I do think, now that I was definitely trying to prove something. It IS a very tough life. Girls and women bear the brunt of it. My oldest daughter, Grace, is sleeping over at her friends' house tonight which is typical of her. She has a life now - lots of friends, activities. She doesn't spend that much time at home and I miss her. But she used to be "junior mom" and she was so darned good at it, that I got spoiled. I am glad that she is free though. I hope that I let her go early enough that she will not feel overly responsible as an adult - she was 13 when I divorced. I wonder - did any other ex QF moms worry about how things would be managed after you let the slaves go free? That's the thing about this lifestyle - it really only works if you make the kids work way harder than kids should work. I have had to relax my standards about as far as possible without health and human services knocking on my door. But I will not sacrifice my children to this movement, nor will I sacrifice myself to maintain someone else's idea of perfection. Nice article, Arietty
|
|
Hillary
Full Member
"Quivering Daughters ~ Hope and Healing for the Daughters of Patriarchy" Now Available!
Posts: 129
|
Post by Hillary on Apr 2, 2010 22:17:39 GMT -5
Arietty ~ "family crisis" is a very astute way to put it. This essentially exhausts the adrenal glands and ushers in PTSD. (Not a doctor; just my observations.)
{{Kiery}} I can identify with everything you wrote. "I wanted a day off of life" ~ gah! So can relate!
|
|
|
Post by dangermom on Apr 2, 2010 23:08:47 GMT -5
I can only imagine what terribly hard work it must be. I mean, I have kids, I homeschool and keep house and sew. But a QF mom would be doing those things exponentially more intensely than I do, like to the 4th power. I only have two children, I don't keep house particularly well, I sew when I feel like it, I'm not that great a cook because I often run out of energy by dinnertime, we are fairly relaxed about scheduling, etc. And I'm a busy person who is quite tired by the end of the day. I think the effort of living this lifestyle would just about kill me (possibly for reals, there's a reason we only have two). It must be so draining and exhausting, and adding on the burden of always looking happy and perfect just makes it much worse. Because I really don't believe in hiding your problems and isolating yourself like that. (But I think I said that last week.) I think people should come over and see my kinda messy house, and then they'll know they're not the only ones.
|
|
|
Post by arietty on Apr 2, 2010 23:20:21 GMT -5
IT is NEVER talked about in the movement that many women suffer very badly from continual child bearing. They are left exhausted, with chronic fatigue or untreated depression, anemic (and it's so hard to go to the doctor with umpteen kids in tow), recovering for 6 months at a time from each birth.. really if they were not under the QF bondage it would be obvious that taking a few years break before having any more children, getting healthy and well first would be the way to go. I have known plenty of people who waited a few years before having another baby because they weren't physically well.. and yet this is considered SIN.
As to what to do after you release the slaves.. lower your standards as much as possible and try and have FUN first. Leave the dishes and have a movie night with the kids. Put the fun first, they absolutely need this once you are out of this lifestyle.
Whatever it was that was driving me to take good care of the house and obsess over nutritious and home made everything when I was QF.. well that is well and truly gone and a great apathy has settled in its place, LOL. I realize I will never recapture that old drive, it's just GONE. Lots of stuff I just did without thinking is pure drudgery to me now.
|
|
|
Post by arietty on Apr 2, 2010 23:57:51 GMT -5
btw I am sorry if I have hijacked this thread away from the experience of the daughters.
I've been thinking about the families perceived to be successful, the ones that get media attention both within and outside of the movement. In the success families all the children work really really hard. The house is run with timetables. Everything looks clean all the time and the children are always put forward for how cheerful in their work they are, how accomplished the daughters are in sewing and cooking. These are the successes and the burdens on the daughters must terrible.
But.. then you have the failures. Messy, tiny houses. Piles of laundry. Schoolwork in huge disarray. And what happens then.. you get forums like FreeJinger ruthlessly picking apart blog photos of such situations and mocking the failures. Maybe these moms just haven't figured out you are supposed to turn your children into robo-slaves and that's why the place looks like that? Maybe the kids are happier?
|
|
|
Post by coleslaw on Apr 3, 2010 0:40:28 GMT -5
I noticed early on in life that people call you selfish when you won't do what they want. Also that you can escape a lot of manipulation by not arguing with other people's perceptions of you. Of course, when your self perceptions is that you are selfish, , that's harder, but the basic principal is the same - say "Yes, I'm selfish" and go take a nap.
|
|
|
Post by sisof9 on Apr 3, 2010 6:53:42 GMT -5
Kiery - *HUG* Actually it made me REALLY mad when people would say "I don't know how they do it!" or specifically "I don't know how she does it!" as a kid and early teen i'd say "yeaaaaah... i try to "help out" now i just say "she doesn't"
|
|
|
Post by freefromtyranny on Apr 3, 2010 8:09:14 GMT -5
Thanks so much for posting from the daughter's perspective.
|
|
kris
New Member
Posts: 5
|
Post by kris on Apr 3, 2010 18:00:35 GMT -5
I don't know if this is the place to post this, but when I stumbled across the most recent post of this blog - www.homeschoolblogger.com/MrsE/774826/ - I couldn't believe how well it dovetailed with Kiery's most recent post. Only, "Mrs. E" is writing from the opposite point of view, that of a mother who wants to whip her older children into shape, into being more genuinely enthusiastic about caring for their younger siblings. By her own admission, her son and daughter are obedient and doing everything she asks them to do. She just wants them to be more sincerely excited about the work. She wants them to anticipate their siblings' needs more. I feel sad for all the quiverfull kids who end up doing most of the work to enable their families to be (seemingly) successful with the lifestyle. A friend and I were talking, and for all the qfullers' talk about how their choices are "more biblical," they never acknowledge that in Bible times, all those huge families had actual slaves. I guess that since slavery has been abolished, quiverfull parents turn to their older children to fill the bill.
|
|
|
Post by kiery on Apr 3, 2010 18:45:18 GMT -5
*sighs* that's just sad. I don't usually comment on blogs like that, but I couldn't sit this one out. I posted anon though but this is what I told her -
I just hope maybe she listens before it's too late.
|
|
|
Post by freefromtyranny on Apr 3, 2010 19:02:49 GMT -5
Mrs E. is the infamous Camilla Anderson who used her blog to bash RL friends and acquaintances. She eventually had to lose her other blog because there was some fall out (or so i heard through the internet grapevine.)
On her Mrs. E blog she had a miserable post about...what was it...things she likes about her dh?? I'll find it. It was the most depressing thing.
|
|
|
Post by dangermom on Apr 3, 2010 19:21:16 GMT -5
Ouch. That blog post was not easy to read. I was heartened to see that most of the replies encouraged her to lighten up and love her children, not expect them to run the household.
I know that if my folks had harped on my faults and talked all. the. time. about the Bible, it would not have gone well. I'm disturbed to see that she believes that their "ONLY" chance to do well in life or with God rests on them obeying her even more than they do now. I'm pretty sure that's not what the Bible says.
|
|
|
Post by freefromtyranny on Apr 3, 2010 19:43:53 GMT -5
|
|
kris
New Member
Posts: 5
|
Post by kris on Apr 3, 2010 22:03:31 GMT -5
Wow...Kiery, that was a GREAT comment. I really hope "Mrs. E" listens to the feedback you and others have given. It would be bad enough to grow up with a mom who expected the level of servitude she obviously expects from her children. But then - even as she acknowledges that they do whatever she asks them to do and are obedient - she adds insult to injury by finding fault with their "heart" attitudes...and (arrogantly, in my opinion) believes that SHE can force them to improve their hearts.
Bleh.
|
|
|
Post by whatkindofwoman on Apr 3, 2010 22:08:27 GMT -5
No. No. No? Is she for real?
|
|
|
Post by kiery on Apr 3, 2010 22:20:37 GMT -5
Wow...Kiery, that was a GREAT comment. I really hope "Mrs. E" listens to the feedback you and others have given. It would be bad enough to grow up with a mom who expected the level of servitude she obviously expects from her children. But then - even as she acknowledges that they do whatever she asks them to do and are obedient - she adds insult to injury by finding fault with their "heart" attitudes...and (arrogantly, in my opinion) believes that SHE can force them to improve their hearts. Bleh. It's scary because *my* parents thought that, and believe that they could interpret my motives and my heart perfectly and better than I could (you know, being me and stuff). When honestly they didn't have a clue, and to this day they still don't understand how it felt to be treated that way. They don't understand why I didn't feel worth anything more than a broom, and they are genuinely shocked when I say that I have nothing against chores or helping (they think I left because I'm a selfish bitch and didn't like to do my chores). I don't think my parents will wake up soon, but I hope maybe, for the sake of E's kids, she'll at least give it some thought...she has no idea how much it means for her to be doing her job as a mother and taking care of her family. Or any other mom's - just being there, being a mom, after putting your kids through mini-momhood really means a lot. My mother-in-law blows me away because she actually takes care of her family, and her daughters help and know how to cook, but they don't run the whole house, and it's beautiful, and there's freedom for them to do their own thing and grow and.....it makes me want to cry...and it makes me jealous...'cause I wish, I had that. On the marriage thing - doormat much?
|
|
kris
New Member
Posts: 5
|
Post by kris on Apr 3, 2010 22:22:14 GMT -5
The marriage advice was nauseating, but I think the way she's training her 11-year-old daughter to view marriage is even worse. I just found ths: She needs to be prepared to go into marriage without the bondage of earthly love and infatuation. I need to teach her to LOVE GOD first. She needs to be prepared to be married as a spiritually strong Christian woman who loves her husband as God loves her husband, who serves her husband only because she is serving God wholeheartedly. I need to make sure every shred of the idolatry our world places on the marriage relationship is completely broken down and destroyed, and prepare her to successfully live out all that she is already learning and becoming. I know this thread isn't about "Mrs. E," but it seems like her writings just epitomize the sad mindset with which "visionary daughters" get saddled. She established in another post that her daughter will not go to college...that her daughter's main education is about homemaking and baby-tending...that her daughter's primary focus will be on marriage and her husband. But then she goes on to squeeze even the romantic fun out of that idea. Her daughter will be left with NOTHING - no college degree, no potential way to support herself, no identity apart from her parents and siblings. And then, not even the potential joy of marrying for love.
|
|
|
Post by kiery on Apr 3, 2010 22:27:50 GMT -5
she probably didn't marry for love either...or if she did, it's probably not really there now, if her massive cheat sheet is any clue - where's the part about being happy and friends and enjoying your DH? as opposed to just being accessible and letting him do his thing?
I mean, I'm a noobie, not married a year yet, but my DH and I would hate it if our relationship were like that...(and we LOVE to dote on eachother! it's not some weird task/way of doting on God...)
|
|
|
Post by freefromtyranny on Apr 4, 2010 0:16:44 GMT -5
I know this thread isn't about "Mrs. E," but it seems like her writings just epitomize the sad mindset with which "visionary daughters" get saddled. She established in another post that her daughter will not go to college...that her daughter's main education is about homemaking and baby-tending...that her daughter's primary focus will be on marriage and her husband. But then she goes on to squeeze even the romantic fun out of that idea. Her daughter will be left with NOTHING - no college degree, no potential way to support herself, no identity apart from her parents and siblings. And then, not even the potential joy of marrying for love. Keep scrolling. There is a post about her little 4yo son that has Tourettes (I wonder if the home is so oppressive that the tics are a symptom of that) and she is wondering how she can train her FOUR year old to be more mindful and helpful to his 20month old brother!! I almost cried so I had to stop reading.
|
|
|
Post by Sierra on Apr 4, 2010 6:07:25 GMT -5
she probably didn't marry for love either...or if she did, it's probably not really there now, if her massive cheat sheet is any clue - where's the part about being happy and friends and enjoying your DH? as opposed to just being accessible and letting him do his thing? I mean, I'm a noobie, not married a year yet, but my DH and I would hate it if our relationship were like that...(and we LOVE to dote on eachother! it's not some weird task/way of doting on God...) I'm with you, kiery. It's so depressing, isn't it? When I was fundie I couldn't understand how anyone would want to get married. How can you love someone as a partner when you have to obey him like a child? There's just no love in the system. In fundamentalism, people are interchangeable. It doesn't matter whether or not you love your spouse, since you're only ever allowed to love God. The whole 'idolatry' thing made me want to cry, because I remember the anguished nights of praying that God wouldn't get too jealous and kill whatever boy I had a crush on as a teenager because I had made him an 'idol.' Maybe some of you can relate to how the girls would gush about the boys the Lord had picked out for them... a girl would know he was the right one by how much he ignored her and how much time he spent in prayer after church. It's so disturbing to think of a total stranger walking up to your father and saying 'God told me to marry your daughter,' let alone giving consent because from a distance he looked godly and refused to acknowledge your existence (how 'pure'). Way to promote marriage to narcissistic, potentially abusive men who view women as nasty temptations to be despised and avoided. I was glad to hear that Vyckie felt alarm bells when Angel almost acquiesced to this kind of thing. It sickens me that women deliberately prep their daughters to live like this. ETA: That woman is a fruitcake and I hope her kids get out.
|
|
|
Post by setfree on Apr 4, 2010 7:05:11 GMT -5
Oh God. I left some comments on that blog. For any good it's worth. Dear heavens. How can anyone possibly live up to that? Such a contradiction - first she says marriage can't be an idol but she is teaching others to totally make and idol out of marriage - like getting married is the ONLY future for her daughter ... I hate how this doctrine instructs women in dysfunction.
|
|
|
Post by setfree on Apr 4, 2010 7:45:29 GMT -5
Please excuse the double post.
I just had another look at her list. It's like a manifesto from the North Korean Communists.
I think I have it deciphered now.
To be a good godly acceptable woman, all you have to do is:
Be clueless Act incompetent Abandon financial independence
Practice idolatry - such as, if your dh makes a decision, it's God's will - so no worries if "God" and "Husband" are inter-changeable. So no it's not about studying God's Word and knowing God - instead, just "study and know your husband".
Do blind, knee-jerk obedience, suppress and annhilate any autonomous thought or instinct. Just obey without thinking. Do not think. Quell any God-given instinct. It's just your rebellious spirit.
God will give you the grace to cope with marital rape. You don't have the right of consent.
Have no boundaries.
Have no needs.
Have no limits.
Have no opinion.
Have no rights.
Embrace negative spin of every aspect of your authentic personality. It isn't your intelligence, experience, perspective, opinion or input - actually, it's "resistance" and "interference". Get used to your voice being regarded merely as static. Abandon any expectation of joint decision making or responsibility bearing.
Have no voice.
Have no escape or respite. It's not loyal.
Get good at the dysfunctional art of appearance management. It's Co-Dependency 101. "Make him look good." "Make him look successful." Don't worry if he's a narcissistic failure from all this this sycophantic idol-worshipping you've been doing, all that matters is that you make him "look" successful.
Expect absolutely nothing from him. Do absolutely everything for him.
Give all that you have, let yourself be utterly drained, but when you inevitably feel empty, just spiritualise it.
Teach your children idolatry so they massage and serve his ego and image, too.
Use "forgiveness" to suppress and repress any authentic need or emotion - especially anger - that is alerting you that your boundaries are being trampled.
Learn to ignore all warning signals, all clenching of your gut, all instinct shouting at you that you are in emotional and psychological danger. You must not let your Programming be interfered with. Quell that rebellious thought right now!
You have no right to feel safe, secure or respected; neither do your children. That is merely a lack of submission. If you would only just properly and fully submit, then you WOULD be safe because you would be under his Umbrella of authority and so God would bless you. So you can't possibly be feeling undafe because he is a narcissistic, immature bully, it's just that you are not submitting exhaustively yet.
You must get everything from God and expect nothing from your husband, but you have to preen his ego as your leader and provider of everything, though. Don't worry if this seems rather contradictory or crazy-making - soon you'll be able to suppress all dissenting or questioning thoughts within seconds - and if that doesn't work, take more Xanax.
Lie. Don't tell the truth in love. It's critical. It's negative. Of course your husband is infallible. Well, I mean, he's not, but he is entitled to feel that he is, and to never have his foibles or sins pointed out. So, honey, just lie, lie, lie.
Wear masks. Cover up. Be phony. Pretend.
Smile.
|
|
|
Post by dangermom on Apr 4, 2010 10:25:00 GMT -5
Keep scrolling. There is a post about her little 4yo son that has Tourettes (I wonder if the home is so oppressive that the tics are a symptom of that) ... Tourette's isn't caused by home environment, though stress does make the tics more frequent. It's not as uncommon as people once thought, and it's usually pretty mild. It often goes with OCD and/or ADHD.
|
|