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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Oct 16, 2009 7:18:44 GMT -5
Tapati ~ did you feel like your child might be of lesser spriitual quality than Kishori because Mike did not participate in the chanting with you? That would be horrible ~ I'm just curious about how that sort of teaching would affect your feelings toward your child. Sounds like a set up for some seriously screwed up parental ideals. Your discovery that you actually did love your mother must've really been startling! Isn't it amazing that even in seriously abusive situations, kids just naturally love their parents? Hyperemesis gravidarum ~ ugh. I knew two QF moms who suffered extreme morning sickness with every pregnancy ~ with both of these women, their husbands finally said, "No more" ~ they could not handle having their wives completely out of commission for several months during every pregnancy. Thanks for sharing about your spiritual journey throughout all of this ~ it's such a foreign worldview and yet, in reading your account ~ the devotion, the longing and desire for spiritual growth seem so familiar ~ I feel that I can relate to your experience. Tapati ~ I really want to thank you for sharing your story on NLQ. Not only is your story extremely engaging, it is informative in relation to the Quiverfull worldview ~ seemingly very different paths (QFers would consider your Hare Krishna involvement to be demonic) ~ the elements are essentially the same ~ particularly the patriarchy and the way women are taught to distrust themselves and their feelings. Both religions condition women to accept and even enable their own abuse.
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Post by tapati on Oct 16, 2009 7:34:56 GMT -5
Tapati ~ did you feel like your child might be of lesser spriitual quality than Kishori because Mike did not participate in the chanting with you? That would be horrible ~ I'm just curious about how that sort of teaching would affect your feelings toward your child. Sounds like a set up for some seriously screwed up parental ideals. It made me worry a little, but still by Hare Krishna beliefs the fact that my children wanted to take birth as devotees meant they were above us in terms of spiritual advancement. Of course then we all discovered that they were still kids, with all of the acting out that implies. My ex, Mike/Mahasraya, didn't want anyone to know that we didn't chant 50 rounds. He was all about public appearances and saving face. Yes, I was startled at the time. I had been so focused on only the worst times that I had forgotten that once upon a time she was more functional and did loving things like bake cupcakes for my class every year on my birthday. I'm glad we had a chance to grow closer before her death, and that I was able to finally see her in perspective as someone who grew up abused and unloved herself. Given that, she really tried to do better as a mother. My daughter has it too, unfortunately. I guess inconvenience to the husband is a more compelling reason to limit the number of babies (in QF) than actual threats to the life of the mother! Hare Krishnas would see QFers as "pious" but misguided, still murdering animals for food and all. The suspicious and condescending view of outsiders is universal among fundamentalist mindsets. It is almost amusing if you think of it, the FLDS folks looking down on the QF folks who look down on the Hare Krishnas who look down on all "karmis" everywhere, each feeling smug and self assured that they are on the fast track to spiritual union with God in whatever form that takes, while everyone else is lost.
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Post by kisekileia on Oct 16, 2009 8:00:04 GMT -5
Tapati, I'm curious: How would the Hare Krishnas respond to someone like me who is medically unable to follow a vegetarian diet? (I'm allergic to peanuts, nuts, and soy, with a history of mild cross-reactions to other legumes. I also have sensory processing problems that make me unable to eat most fruits and vegetables.)
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Post by Sierra on Oct 16, 2009 8:10:30 GMT -5
The suspicious and condescending view of outsiders is universal among fundamentalist mindsets. It is almost amusing if you think of it, the FLDS folks looking down on the QF folks who look down on the Hare Krishnas who look down on all "karmis" everywhere, each feeling smug and self assured that they are on the fast track to spiritual union with God in whatever form that takes, while everyone else is lost. It is that smugness that so baffled me in the people who claimed to manifest the true love of God. Christians who seriously believe in the Rapture and look to it as an escape from a world that is bound to perish in flames ought to be sobbing on their knees every night for all the unique and wonderful individual lives lost. I occasionally did this, inwardly screaming at God that couldn't he reconsider, couldn't I do as Jesus had done and bargain my own soul in exchange for the salvation of all my irreligious friends - that is, such thoughts would occur whenever I wasn't paralysed by the fear of not making it either. Then I realised that God was the orchestrator of all this heartache and thought, F*ck his plan, a child could do better! I actually used to think once in a while that there must be more planets out there where God had implemented better plans, and that Earth was just a prototype he was all but scrapping - hence the fact so few humans were deemed worthy to survive.
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Post by tapati on Oct 16, 2009 9:14:01 GMT -5
Tapati, I'm curious: How would the Hare Krishnas respond to someone like me who is medically unable to follow a vegetarian diet? (I'm allergic to peanuts, nuts, and soy, with a history of mild cross-reactions to other legumes. I also have sensory processing problems that make me unable to eat most fruits and vegetables.) They would have trouble believing that what they think of as THE diet for humanity would be unhealthy for you, and they would likely feel that the karma for killing animals was a more pressing concern than your health. They'd expect you to live on dairy and whatever grains and vegetables you could eat. They are quite fanatical about vegetarianism. You might run into some exceptions--less dogmatic people. They would feel sorry for you instead of condemning you.
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Post by tapati on Oct 16, 2009 16:27:37 GMT -5
I was thinking this morning that most of these deprogramming families were Christians. So basically what they were saying was: "This Krishna guy, this blue god with all those girls, lifting a hill and defeating demons--that's irrational. You should return to our belief in the talking snake, walking on water, turning water into wine, raising people from the dead, and resurrection. Oh yeah, and the book of revelations! That's what sensible people believe."
(My apologies to any Christians reading this!)
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Post by pandapaws on Oct 16, 2009 17:46:06 GMT -5
In my experience, deprogrammers were athiests. They didn't believe in any religion what-so-ever. My family was Catholic but not really practicing. I think most were Christians just because most of the country are Christians. They never tried to get me to revert to any other religion.
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Post by tapati on Oct 16, 2009 18:32:25 GMT -5
In my experience, deprogrammers were athiests. They didn't believe in any religion what-so-ever. My family was Catholic but not really practicing. I think most were Christians just because most of the country are Christians. They never tried to get me to revert to any other religion. My own family expressed outrage that I was abandoning Christianity even though they were pretty lukewarm as Christians. I'm sure the deprogrammers were mostly in it for the bucks, though.
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Post by kisekileia on Oct 17, 2009 20:11:37 GMT -5
Ugh. I have a great deal of antipathy for people who don't think I have the right to exist.
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Post by barbaraw on Oct 18, 2009 10:00:48 GMT -5
I'm sure the deprogrammers were mostly in it for the bucks, though. And the thrill of exerting power over the deprogramees.
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Post by krwordgazer on Oct 18, 2009 21:51:47 GMT -5
Tapati, I like the way you're telling this story, showing the humanity of everyone involved-- with great sensitivity and compassion you are refraining from one-sided views of even those who hurt you most. Mentioning Mike's "wisdom" with regards to your love for your mom, for instance. I know he was an abuser, but you also show him as a person. Your mom, too.
I had hyperemesis, too, so I can really relate; I know I was scared that the baby wasn't going to develop properly since I couldn't give her adequate nutrition. Fortunately the doctors stepped in at about the 10th week and put me on a special nausea-prevention diet which turned things around for me. How long did your hyperemesis last?
So sad about Mike's mom dying so young like that. You went through so much.
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Post by tapati on Oct 21, 2009 4:32:36 GMT -5
Ugh. I have a great deal of antipathy for people who don't think I have the right to exist. Of course I am talking about members of ISKCON, who are often thought to be fanatical by other Gaudiya Vaishnavas, perhaps in that overzealous way of converts. Gaudiya Vaishnavas in India would probably react differently. Here is some evidence-- Seen on the blog of Advaitadas: Although most western devotees have been initially taught that all westerners go to hell because they don’t follow the Vedic principles and that ‘ignorance is no excuse’, when I told this to Sadhu Baba he laughed and thought I had told him the joke of the year. Later, when studying the teachings of Vijay Krishna Gosvami, I understood why – “Although not every human being has the same duties, obligations and ethics, there is morality according to country, society and time. Whatever is thus considered decent is accepted, and unless and until it is understood and realised to be wrong and unjust it should certainly be followed. Whatever I believe to be my duties and propriety that is my religious principle. If one doesn’t follow one’s fundamental religious principles one meets with woe and commits sin according to one’s local, social and temporal customs and ethics. Whatever obligation and ethics one believes in and accepts with a simple heart, that is one’s religious virtue and should certainly be followed. In some places the eating of fish and meat is established custom and at other places it is rejected as a sin as if it is poison.”Vijay Krishna Goswami, June 1891.
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Post by tapati on Oct 21, 2009 4:38:45 GMT -5
Tapati, I like the way you're telling this story, showing the humanity of everyone involved-- with great sensitivity and compassion you are refraining from one-sided views of even those who hurt you most. Mentioning Mike's "wisdom" with regards to your love for your mom, for instance. I know he was an abuser, but you also show him as a person. Your mom, too. I am trying hard to be fair to all concerned. No one is two dimensional. We all have our good and bad sides, our virtues and our struggles with selfishness. I'm trying to make it clear that I was no saint either. Two and a half months, the longest such period in my life. To this day I have a severe, suicidal reaction to being nauseated. I really can't tolerate it. It was made more difficult by my not seeing a doctor for it and receiving no treatment. It wasn't until years later when my daughter suffered from it that I even found out it had a name. She said she was warned to tell them immediately if she became suicidal. It would have helped to know that this was a defined illness because I had people telling me it was mostly in my head. They really couldn't believe that I couldn't eat. I had just met her a few times but it was devastating for him. I may not care for him anymore but I feel sympathy for anyone losing their mother that young (he was 22) and in such a horrible way.
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Post by tapati on Oct 26, 2009 18:46:26 GMT -5
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Post by arietty on Oct 26, 2009 19:43:53 GMT -5
LOLOLOLOL that was very shocking Tapati (I read the whole thing.. "here he is wearing this.. here he is wearing that..")
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Post by tapati on Oct 27, 2009 1:55:24 GMT -5
LOLOLOLOL that was very shocking Tapati (I read the whole thing.. "here he is wearing this.. here he is wearing that..") You'd have thought they found him on a beach in a speedo with girls in bikinis serving him drinks!
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