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Post by rosa on Jul 2, 2009 18:29:43 GMT -5
Jo, that's terrible. I'm glad you had other adults who tried to help, at least. Cantor, it is only worth it if you have a soymilk maker (which I do). It is a TON of work to do it without the soymilk maker (because you start by making 2 gallons of soymilk). The tofu itself is not much work, once the soymilk is made. It is, however, way, way cheaper. Especially since I got soybeans for free. My friend the farmer said "how many bushels do you want?" and I said "about 10 pounds?" and she said "HAHAHAHAHA" and gave it to us free. I like the homemade tofu just fine; my boyfriend doesn't like it, he says it tastes like the whole wheat version of tofu. The kid has no preference and likes to help make it.
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Post by kisekileia on Jul 3, 2009 3:39:35 GMT -5
I'm appalled that nobody from that church intervened, grandmalou. "Want to know the biggest insult to a hungry child? Knowing that Daddy always eats first and eats until he's full and you get what he bothers to leave you."...I honestly didn't realize that happened in North America. It makes sense, thinking about it, that it would happen in QF/P families, but seriously...I've only heard of that before in Africa.
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Post by grandmalou on Jul 3, 2009 7:48:57 GMT -5
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Post by jemand on Jul 3, 2009 10:00:39 GMT -5
I believe my cousin no longer knows what it's like to feel hungry. Her parents from day one had her on the "Ezzo" schedule-- breast fed every 6 hours, NO more often, and she had a set amount of time to eat at each time... after a couple months she was expected to sleep through the night so she got 3 meals a day. After weaning, she went to two meals a day with maybe a piece of fruit at 4:30 or so, nothing after that. Plus, she is so primed to avoid fat she will not eat avocado. "daddy says it is fattening" she says-- she's 10 years old and so thin she wears jackets in the middle of summer-- too cold otherwise. If she's out for a day with my grandparents, they report she will NEVER bring up food, and actually seems very dismissive if they ask her if she's hungry.
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Post by rosa on Jul 3, 2009 10:04:51 GMT -5
Jemand, that is terrifying. I've seen that behavior in anorexic women when they relapse, but I didnt' think you could brainwash a child like that.
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Post by jemand on Jul 3, 2009 10:56:01 GMT -5
I didn't know that kind of behavior could be shown in a child either... but it's obviously there. She's always eaten enough to keep her alive, because of the adults in her life deciding when she's hungry... but I wonder what will happen when she grows up and starts living on her own, given what her parents have done with her head.
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calulu
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Post by calulu on Jul 3, 2009 15:36:20 GMT -5
Sad to say I think this is pretty common in QF and large Christian families. I remember a family with eight kids that used to show up at my house at meal time a few times a week for a couple of months. It was obvious the kids were always hungry and they looked like they were too thin. The kids told my husband and myself that they had no food in their home. Dad worked but apparently spent his wages on other things. I could never figure it out because they had a nice home, Dad made plenty of money but they couldn't afford to feed their kids.
And potlucks at my old church you'd think none of the kids of the church had ever eaten. You could tell very quickly which families had no food at home and who did.
Sad that there's that type of hunger still in this nation but what can you do? You cannot force people to reorder their priorities so that their kids eat without forcing intervention from CPS.
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Post by kisekileia on Jul 3, 2009 23:05:57 GMT -5
I'd be completely OK with CPS intervening in that kind of situation. It appalls me that churches would tolerate children being starved at their own events.
Jemand, it honestly sounds like that 10-year-old is anorexic already. I would speak to her parents and to a non-QF/P adult in her life about her behaviour. And wow, requiring INFANTS to only eat every six hours?! That is both abusive and likely medically dangerous for some kids. If nobody else intervenes for that girl and for any siblings with similar meal regimens, i.e. if things don't actually change, I would call CPS.
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calulu
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Post by calulu on Jul 4, 2009 8:48:59 GMT -5
I'd be completely OK with CPS intervening in that kind of situation. It appalls me that churches would tolerate children being starved at their own events. At our church it was the opposite, the kids that came from homes with no food would stuff themselves silly because the church was large enough for them to not be seen by their parents. They'd slip in, load their plates to overflowing and go hide in one of the many Sunday school rooms to eat. Potlucks turned into such a problem at my old church, the potlucks and the Sunday fellowship coffee and snacks that eventually the pastor spoke one Sunday from the pulpit about feeding your child, said that anyone not feeding their children proper amounts of food was committing child abuse. But it took literally months and months of stick thin kids inhaling large amounts of food before he got it.
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Post by tapati on Jul 4, 2009 18:29:22 GMT -5
Jo, if your land needs more intensive tilling, you could easily grow cherry tomatoes in a container or two on your porch. Right now I have one in a hanging planter that is growing quite nicely. I was impressed to see Jamie Oliver on foodtv had grown an extra plant in a washed out 15 oz can and he said he'd gotten cherry tomatoes all summer out of that (in addition to the rest of his garden). So I figured why not this pot I had left over from a plant that had died out over the winter?
I agree that it is criminal for any adult in the family to take food away from growing children who need it for brain development and bone mass. The whole purpose of our WIC program is to insure that poor children get what they need while their brains are developing so they have what they need to transcend poverty as adults.
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jo
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Post by jo on Jul 5, 2009 21:43:08 GMT -5
I've watched even qf families who could afford to feed their kids do this though.
6 years ago, we were working to bring our oldest son home from an orphanage in W. Africa. We went to dinner at the home of the family that had just brought 2 girls from the same orphanage home. It was a typical qf family with 12 or 13 children at the time. Both parents and each child was allowed to eat one piece of chicken, about 1/4 cup of cole slaw and 1/3 cup of mashed potatoes and 1 biscuit. None were permitted seconds.
The parents were complaining that one of the biggest problems they were having was that the girls were constantly crying for food and hoarding food. And sure enough, both girls came and begged for seconds. The other children in the home were well trained to not ask. But, those girls were not yet.
I thought it was so cruel to take these girls from starvation, finally put the food in front of them and tell them that they could not eat it.
But, the kicker was that Dad was a very successful doctor. They had a huge house, lots of land and nice things in the house but they were absolutely convinced that the desire of these girls to eat more was sinful and gluttonous.
Let me just contrast for you. 5 months later, my son came home. And, having researched the impact of starvation as well as how to have healthy habits with food, I gave him an open kitchen instead. He ate a dozen eggs for breakfast every morning, in which I hid and smothered both other high protein sources but veggies. He gained 20lb and 6" in his first year home and went from the size of an average 4 year old to the 8 year old he was. He ate so much he got queasy exactly twice before he learned to listen to his own body and stop eating when he was full.
In my house *I* am the only person with both an eating and a weight issue. The qf style of control over food caused my sister to go anorexic and I overeat. I know when I'm full but I can't let myself waste food. Its SO engrained in me that I *must* clean my plate. The child who used to eat a dozen eggs is hardly fat for his efforts. His body fat percentage is less than 10%. So much for the qf idea that he would get fat and uhealthy if allowed to dictate his own eating.
The controls over food in that world growing up was the most insulting to me. At 19, I came home from college and felt guilty for refusing to eat the liver served to me. And I still shake and wait to be smited when I don't clean my dinner plate entirely.
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Post by kisekileia on Jul 6, 2009 0:55:01 GMT -5
Wow. Those food controls are horrifyingly abusive. If kids are CRYING for more dinner, they NEED it! The families that do that need to be reported to CAS now. Call me naive, but I had no idea there were still kids in the U.S. who are malnourished enough to be underweight from it (other than anorexics), let alone ones whose families starve them DELIBERATELY because they believe their child's normal need for food is gluttony! There needs to be a massive expose on this.
Also, frankly, that adoption agency was seriously falling down on the job both for adopting to a couple with such extreme attitudes, and for not educating the parents properly about the effects of starvation on people. ANY person who is forcibly deprived of food for an extended period of time will gorge and hoard food when finally given unlimited access to it again. That is INSTINCT. Not only that, formerly starved children probably seriously need the extra food for catch-up growth! I can't believe the adoption agency doesn't educate the families about stuff like that.
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jo
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Post by jo on Jul 6, 2009 9:19:26 GMT -5
The agency DID educate them. Once the children come home, there is nothing an adoption agency can do. They were no happier to hear what I saw than I was to see it. But, the children were legally adopted by their parents and adoption agencies have no legal standing after an adoption is finalized and the child is home.
And yes, starved children DO hoard and overeat. I learned a long time ago that I emotionally shut down when my pantry starts to look empty. I can tell myself that there's food in the freezers and stored in the basement. But, the pantry is where I see food and thus where I have a viseral and emotional reaction to the visual lack of food in the house.
All 3 of my starved children continue to hoard food. Two starved in poor nations where there was no food to be had. The third starved in the US fostercare system. The older two have learned to not overeat, though it took a lot to learn such. The youngest has a host of other issues, and I suspect because he was starved in the precense of food plays into it, food is a major issue in his life.
I find myself constantly able to relate to my sons on the starvation and issues surrounding food. My food was SO micro-controlled my entire childhood that I know exactly what they think and feel in their quest to have healthy relationships with food. And, I think I've done a good job of helping all of the children in the house with the mental capacity TO learn healthy food habits to have them. But, one of the big lingering impacts of being in the Patriachial world is my own response and issues with food. I can teach my children better. But, I cannot consistently and long-term apply those same lessons to myself and shake the effects of that upbringing. I can have good moments but I always revert back to struggles.
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Post by jemand on Jul 6, 2009 9:36:46 GMT -5
I'd be completely OK with CPS intervening in that kind of situation. It appalls me that churches would tolerate children being starved at their own events. Jemand, it honestly sounds like that 10-year-old is anorexic already. I would speak to her parents and to a non-QF/P adult in her life about her behaviour. And wow, requiring INFANTS to only eat every six hours?! That is both abusive and likely medically dangerous for some kids. If nobody else intervenes for that girl and for any siblings with similar meal regimens, i.e. if things don't actually change, I would call CPS. I was only 12 when she was born, so it was awhile before I understood exactly what they'd done with her-- I don't think what they are doing is even now obvious enough to actually get the CPS to DO anything, and she's an only child. So I really don't think there's anything I can do right now...
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calulu
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Post by calulu on Jul 6, 2009 15:14:08 GMT -5
I learned a long time ago that I emotionally shut down when my pantry starts to look empty. I can tell myself that there's food in the freezers and stored in the basement. But, the pantry is where I see food and thus where I have a viseral and emotional reaction to the visual lack of food in the house. I can teach my children better. But, I cannot consistently and long-term apply those same lessons to myself and shake the effects of that upbringing. I can have good moments but I always revert back to struggles. Hugs. I have the exact same reactions to having an empty pantry due to my mother keeping more alcohol in the house than food. She used to tell me I needed to diet. Now I have food issues. Thankfully I have not passed them off to my kids. Parents that withhold food for any reason do irreparable harm to their kids for the rest of their lives. Even when you realize you have this damage and these issues it's hard to overcome.
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Post by rosa on Jul 6, 2009 16:19:40 GMT -5
This thread is just breaking my heart, and it's really eye-opening. I've known people who couldn't always afford to keep their kids fed, who were really proud when they could sober up/keep a job/get custody of kids and have enough dinner for everybody to have seconds. I've known people whose parents were mentally ill or addicted, who were hungry kids. I've read about abusers restricting food to "punish" their children. And I've known people with such a fear their children would be fat, they start restricting girls food around puberty. It would have never occurred to me that there were people in the world who would not allow kids to eat and think as a kind of pre-emptive discipline, thinking it was just good for them - much less enough of them to develop and proselytize a system for it.
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Post by kisekileia on Jul 6, 2009 18:18:19 GMT -5
Jemand, I don't know where you live, so you might be right, but I would still call CPS or at least contact the girl's school. Anorexia is a life-threatening illness, and the girl desperately needs therapy.
I know it's hard to cope with the idea of causing the level of family friction that calling CPS for your cousin would cause, though, especially when you're as young as 22.
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Post by tapati on Jul 6, 2009 18:55:27 GMT -5
Jemand, I don't know where you live, so you might be right, but I would still call CPS or at least contact the girl's school. Anorexia is a life-threatening illness, and the girl desperately needs therapy. I know it's hard to cope with the idea of causing the level of family friction that calling CPS for your cousin would cause, though, especially when you're as young as 22. I agree, and even if CPS in the end does nothing but go out and talk to child and family, the fact that they did so may cause some panic changes of behavior. (And let the child know someone was concerned enough to call, which may do some good in the long term.)
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Post by jemand on Jul 7, 2009 9:29:05 GMT -5
the girl is homeschooled, and only goes to a sort of home church thingy where she's the only child. Otherwise she and her mother are pretty much always at home. (the only children she sees her age are my sisters, for a couple weeks a year) She lives in California. If CPS comes to their house, I'm betting the parents will be off to "do missionary work" in Turkey, which they've been talking about for three years or so but haven't actually done much about...
I still may call, especially since all of you are advising it... but I DON"T want her to end up in Turkey. Whatever chances she has of running away in 8 years when she reaches majority would be GONE in that case.
Oh, and her father is a doctor. He really should know better. But I don't think she really goes to see other doctors though.
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jo
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Post by jo on Jul 8, 2009 17:14:15 GMT -5
Calling CPS does absolutely no good. I set the ball in motion for my own family with the younger kids. Children in this world are well conitioned to not trigger anything to CPS. And, investigations then cause increased stress and blame for the children. The assumption is always going to be that the child did something wrong in their interactions with the outside world to trigger the report.
That is not to say don't do it. Just don't count on it making any difference.
Micheal Pearl, one of the patriarchal gurus on parenting, has whole sections of his ministry website devoted to how to train your children 'properly' without triggering secular investigations. If you want some insight into how the P/Qf movement views CPS interference, go read on No Greater Joy Ministries. But, it may turn your stomach.
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Post by tapati on Jul 8, 2009 18:53:52 GMT -5
Calling CPS does absolutely no good. I set the ball in motion for my own family with the younger kids. Children in this world are well conitioned to not trigger anything to CPS. And, investigations then cause increased stress and blame for the children. The assumption is always going to be that the child did something wrong in their interactions with the outside world to trigger the report. That is not to say don't do it. Just don't count on it making any difference. Micheal Pearl, one of the patriarchal gurus on parenting, has whole sections of his ministry website devoted to how to train your children 'properly' without triggering secular investigations. If you want some insight into how the P/Qf movement views CPS interference, go read on No Greater Joy Ministries. But, it may turn your stomach. It would be interesting to forward a copy to CPS when making the complaint, so they know what they are up against going in. Sometimes their hands are tied even when they suspect things are over the line because they need PROOF. I use them as a last resort. It's best to try to work with the family if you have any real influence. But if they are too brainwashed, that's just not possible.
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Post by kisekileia on Jul 9, 2009 0:04:31 GMT -5
Tapati, I think your ideas probably make sense. I haven't really read QF/P screeds about CPS, and I don't want to do it tonight because I know I wouldn't sleep, but I am aware that the 'Christian' corporal punishment/"America must stay away from the UN because OMG ONE-WORLD GOVERNMENT" mentality has resulted in the U.S. being the only country other than Somalia not to ratify the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. If the writings are as bad as I suspect, I agree with Tapati about forwarding them to CPS--a lot of more mainstream Christians don't want to realize how evil and dangerous fundamentalist Christianity can get, so they need hard evidence. I'm guessing how a CPS call would work out probably depends on the area, too. I would honestly lean towards calling CPS if you have a decent amount of evidence, such as really scary books the parents admit to supporting, though. Anorexia nervosa kills 20% of sufferers, and it's hard to treat when a girl gets it as young as 10 and then goes for years without help. Plus, even parents outside of QF/P have an amazing knack for denial where their kids' psychiatric problems are concerned. I did online peer counseling for awhile as an 18-year-old, and I vividly remember the time an 82-pound anorexic and bulimic girl with chronic mono was in a state of physical collapse and very dehydrated because of stomach flu combined with her other illnesses, and her parents delayed taking her to the hospital because they had to get up for church early in the morning. And my sincerely loving mother took five years after a psychiatrist first said I likely had ADHD to stop yelling at me for the symptoms. I hope I'm not offending any parents here, but most of the time, parents + their kids' mental health issues = fucked-up-ness. (Sorry, edited a few times to proofread and tone down the vulgarity about scary stuff.)
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Post by tapati on Jul 9, 2009 4:14:48 GMT -5
I've been reading the "No Greater Joy" articles about marriage and family. I'm amused at some of the spelling errors...bazaar for bizarre, accomplishes for accomplices. The point of view is also, of course, simple. They are secure in right and wrong, in sin and righteousness, and benevolent in their advice to those parents whose children have "jumped ship" for mainstream society. (They should not be angry but rather exhibit the joy of their path in order to model for their adult children what they're missing.) Occasionally there are bits of sound advice amid the proselytizing and spanking sermons. It would almost be better if the whole thing were a drooling oppression-fest so as to not lend it any air of credibility at all. The story of the three year old taught to use a dust-buster reminded me of Angel and Warren with the sweeping. The same writer asks, in another article, "How could I make ladyhood appealing to a toddler who simply thrived on getting muddy, jumping on the trampoline, pretending to be a dinosaur or alligator, and playing with Daddy’s tools?" (by turning her into a fashion queen with a magic cape...) Meanwhile, Michael Pearl writes an article about getting kids to do work and avoid laziness, and says that one should avoid high stakes situations in teaching this lesson, giving the following example: "When my wife is lending a hand on a job that has me keyed up and anxious, I am aware that she ceases to be my sweetheart and becomes my minimum-wage employee. I tend to bark commands: “No, not that one. Here, grab that.” “Quickly!” “Not so fast.” I am amazed at how dumb uninformed women are about things that all men should know."This from the guy who thinks bizarre is spelled bazaar! (Maybe the bazaar is where one goes to buy the bizarre.) Again, the article is leavened with some sensible sounding words about showing appreciation and making the experience a pleasant one rather than critiquing the job too strictly, pointing out that the house and yard are just material things while what matters is "the soul" of the children. I have nothing against children learning a good work ethic (as long as it isn't abusive like Warren was with Angel). The passage about his wife was over the top, however. Nathan Pearl informs us: The responsibility on me as a father is enormous; I am the first, last, and only mediator of truth and balance to my child.One would think they have no mother. This is not the case. What role does she play? Ever since we first got married, when I come home from work, my wife greets me at the door with a smile and kiss, her face aglow with delight. I hold her in my arms, and we spend a few special moments enjoying each other. Now, our two-year-old, Laura Rose, tries to compete by wedging her little body between us so she can give Daddy “hugs and love.” No one ever told Laura Rose to be happy when Daddy gets home, but Zephyr did teach her by example. How unnatural it would be for Laura Rose to pout, be moody, be fearful, or show no interest in my arrival when all she has ever seen from Mommy is total delight toward Daddy’s home-coming? Then there is an ode to spanking. Yes, that's right, a nice little poem about spanking. You can find it here: www.nogreaterjoy.org/articles/child-training/parent-child-relations/article-display/archive/1996/january/10/tots-talk/Michael and Debi Pearl warn that the evils of eating candy and hiding it from Daddy (as Mama allows) will plant the seeds of trouble in the teen years. I'm not a big fan of candy eating or keeping secrets from the other parent, but doesn't "Daddy" see that his patriarchal pronouncements leave no room for "Mama" to negotiate and come to a workable compromise? Apparently not. www.nogreaterjoy.org/articles/child-training/parent-child-relations/article-display/archive/1999/february/01/what-daddy-doesnt-know-wont-hurt-him/Did you know that a child asking the question why is an act of defiance and rebellion? No? Neither did I. But I guess you have to stamp out any question of your authority when you are a symbol of the patriarchy. www.nogreaterjoy.org/articles/child-training/parent-child-relations/article-display/archive/1995/march/05/why-but-why/Then there is the whole section on "The Rod." Not before breakfast, please. It'll spoil your appetite. www.nogreaterjoy.org/articles/child-training/the-rod/This is all I can stomach for one night. (You were right about that, Jo, but I learned a lot there.)
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Post by tapati on Jul 9, 2009 4:17:35 GMT -5
Tapati, I think your ideas probably make sense. I haven't really read QF/P screeds about CPS, and I don't want to do it tonight because I know I wouldn't sleep, but I am aware that the 'Christian' corporal punishment/"America must stay away from the UN because OMG ONE-WORLD GOVERNMENT" mentality has resulted in the U.S. being the only country other than Somalia not to ratify the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. ... I did online peer counseling for awhile as an 18-year-old, and I vividly remember the time an 82-pound anorexic and bulimic girl with chronic mono was in a state of physical collapse and very dehydrated because of stomach flu combined with her other illnesses, and her parents delayed taking her to the hospital because they had to get up for church early in the morning. And my sincerely loving mother took five years after a psychiatrist first said I likely had ADHD to stop yelling at me for the symptoms. I hope I'm not offending any parents here, but most of the time, parents + their kids' mental health issues = fucked-up-ness. (Sorry, edited a few times to proofread and tone down the vulgarity about scary stuff.) I have a problem too with the families who deny medical care to children for their beliefs. I think we have to draw a line somewhere and that line should be firmly on the side of enabling children to grow up healthy and educated. The adult child can then decide whether to forgo medical treatment in the future, but not based on ill-educated superstitions.
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Post by coleslaw on Jul 9, 2009 6:12:35 GMT -5
Logic is not his strong point. If you insist on strictly separate gender roles, taught from an early age, of course women will be uninformed about things that all men should know. How could it be otherwise?
I can just imagine his own version of Morton's Demon intervening at this point to say, "Move along. Nothing to see here" before he starts to make the obvious connection.
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