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Post by sargassosea on Jul 10, 2009 19:28:26 GMT -5
Atheist -
I took extreme exception to your equating "normal" with going to college and not being addicted to crack and not being a prostitute. Call me a language freak, but that is what you said whether you meant it that way or not.
Dig this: there are many people who go to college and are drug addicts and/or prostitutes. There are many people who do not go to college and are not drug addicts and/or prostitutes. Frankly, I've just had it up to my eyeballs with people tossing out insensitive, rude epithets with seemingly no thought, no sympathy whatsoever and I'm going to call *Foul* on that.
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Post by sargassosea on Jul 10, 2009 19:31:35 GMT -5
Tapati -
Thank you for understanding exactly where I was coming from and having steady, thoughtful words.
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Post by tapati on Jul 10, 2009 19:51:26 GMT -5
Sea--you're welcome...I can't seem to give up the habit of peacemaking after being a mod for years.
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Post by coleslaw on Jul 10, 2009 22:44:41 GMT -5
Atheist - I took extreme exception to your equating "normal" with going to college and not being addicted to crack and not being a prostitute. Call me a language freak, but that is what you said whether you meant it that way or not. Oddly enough, that's not the term that occurs to me to call you. And I for one appreciate your willingness to set an example of courteous behavior.
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Post by rosa on Jul 11, 2009 0:01:02 GMT -5
Vyckie - what if you had spent all that time trying to make YOU happy? I'd hate to see you rest your future on the random lottery of picking the right guy, again. (Your current guy seems really great, but still.)
I do sympathise with Berea a lot - at 18 I had *no* idea what to do with myself, so i just did what my parents wanted in lieu of some better plan. It turned out okay, but it's still kind of terrifying.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Jul 11, 2009 1:26:34 GMT -5
Vyckie - what if you had spent all that time trying to make YOU happy? I'd hate to see you rest your future on the random lottery of picking the right guy, again. (Your current guy seems really great, but still.) You make a valid point, Rosa. I haven't written much about my "current guy" (LOL) so far for several reasons: 1) I don't want to give away the end (so far) of my story before I have a chance to write it. 2) I am not sure if I even have the language to discuss my relationship with John since it's something that I have never experienced. I can't even think of a fitting word to fill in the blank on a form which asks for "relationship" ~ because none of the standard options (spouse, significant other, friend?) satisfactorily describe the relationship that we have. 3) I don't know how to tell it convincingly ~ I've become such a skeptic lately that when someone raves about what a wonderful relationship they have with their "guy" ~ I just have to doubt it's really so great. Guess I've spent too much time in the QF/P world where all the women have amazing husbands who truly love them and they are so very happy ~ I said all those things about Warren ~ and I honestly believed every word of it ~ but now I can clearly see that it just wasn't actually true. Having experienced "the real deal" with John made it possible for me to understand that what I had with Warren was more like wishful thinking. Still ~ I feel like if I tried to write about our love ~ you all would respond with something like "he seems really great, but still..." Now ~ when I get to writing about how I met John and the way that our relationship developed ~ all the fascinating particulars ~ it'll be obvious (as it is to me now) that I've finally "hit the lottery" so to speak. But it's going to take more than a quick post on the forum to tell it. 4) I am afraid that if I try to tell just a little, while reserving all the "juicy details" for my story ~ I'll just trivialize my relationship with John and I don't want to take that chance because it's actually deeply personal and very important to me ~ something I really cherish and I guess I feel the love that we share is a highly prized treasure that I don't want to put on public display until I'm ready to really tell the whole story. I don't know why I just wrote all of that, Rosa ~ since in your post, you weren't actually asking me to defend my relationship with my "current guy." (I am not offended that you referred to John as my "current guy" ~ I don't know what to call him either ~ which is why I just say, John.) It's just that I do think you made a good point ~ and I want to respond by saying that I'm certainly not playing the lotto now ~ hoping to hit on the right man to bring me happiness and fulfillment ~ I want to say that I don't "need" a man and I actually make a point of proving that to myself all the time (don't ask me about the disaster of mowing my own lawn the other day ~ I really didn't manage to prove anything with that stunt, ugh) ~ John does not live with me ~ I don't ever again want a man living with me and my kids. I am content with myself ~ I am happy all on my own. BUT ~ at the same time, John does make me happy. Our relationship is the only one I've ever experienced in which I am getting at least as much out of it as I put in. I don't want to resort to describing our relationship in terms of the "nots" ~ iow ~ he is "not controlling" "not patriarchal" "not insecure" etc. I don't know how many times I have marveled at the fact that our love is effortless ~ I never made a decision to love John ~ and I don't have to work at it ~ it just is. And I really like that because so much of my life has been me striving for something ~ and now here it is and I don't have to do anything ~ it's just there. Okay ~ I'm tempted to just delete this whole post because I'm sure that I am not even coming close to articulating what I really think and feel in response to your comment here, Rosa. But I'm going to leave it ~ and just say, Hang on ~ I'll tell you more when the time is right. Sorry ~ it's the best I can do for now.
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Post by debrand on Jul 11, 2009 7:56:16 GMT -5
Hello! I loved this particular article of yours. I grew up in an abusive home. Religion was not behind my mother's behavior(although she was a nominal Christian). I strongly believe that she had borderline personality disorder.
My mother is a hard person to define. But I spent most of my childhood monitoring my own emotional reactions because I was terrified of her. When she was happy, we kids had to be happy, when she was sad, we had to express sadness. Everything in life revolved around my mother. It was a horrible way to grow up.
But it does give me some understanding of the wonder that you feel over your children's burgeoning ability to express normal emotions.
My own children amaze me! They can be silly and so unique. My oldest daughter has been experimenting with putting purple streaks in her hair and wearing black nail polish. Never would I have been allowed to be so different.
A moment between my two daughters illustrates how different their childhood has been then their mothers. My ten year old-soon to be 11- was having a teary moment. She was crying and wasn't certain why she was upset. Her 13 year old sister said something along the lines of, "Its okay to be emotional for no reason. Once you get it out, you will feel a lot better. Just don't fight against your tears." I am paraphrasing.
Wow. That was so different then the message that I absorbed as a young girl. I learned that having strong emotions upset my mom and I should be in control of my feelings. Crying for no reason would have gotten me called an unloving child who only wanted to upset her mother.
So like you, sometimes I just sit back and feel amazement over my children's ability just to feel and express anger and sadness and joy.
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Post by philosophia on Jul 11, 2009 15:32:13 GMT -5
I enjoyed what you said about John. It sounds like something special, and you gave us enough information to make everyone smile.
Thanks!
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Post by grandmalou on Jul 11, 2009 15:50:48 GMT -5
My mother is a hard person to define. But I spent most of my childhood monitoring my own emotional reactions because I was terrified of her. When she was happy, we kids had to be happy, when she was sad, we had to express sadness. Everything in life revolved around my mother. It was a horrible way to grow up. Welcome, debrand... Your mother sounds like my mom was. And I think, also Jo's mother. We should start a new thread, on Narcissism, huh? Funny thing...it's like the world had been created just for such a person. And nothing or nobody nowhow, nowhere else matters. Mine was alcoholic/abusive/narcissistic. When she was drunk, she was a laugh a minute, and everybody loved her. I used to wish she'd just stay drunk so she wouldn't be so mean. Then when I got older and realized she had some serious mental problems as well as the alcohol problem, the guilt I felt was horrendous! What kind of daughter wishes drunkeness on their poor sick mother? Etc. Ad nauseum. There are still some things I deal with, even though she's been gone since 2002. I find now I miss her...the funny her.
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Post by anatheist on Jul 12, 2009 2:07:15 GMT -5
Atheist - I took extreme exception to your equating "normal" with going to college and not being addicted to crack and not being a prostitute. Call me a language freak, but that is what you said whether you meant it that way or not. Dig this: there are many people who go to college and are drug addicts and/or prostitutes. There are many people who do not go to college and are not drug addicts and/or prostitutes. Frankly, I've just had it up to my eyeballs with people tossing out insensitive, rude epithets with seemingly no thought, no sympathy whatsoever and I'm going to call *Foul* on that. I think you need to chill out. I did not equate going to college with not being a crack whore, because I was talking about specific individuals. If they had gone to college and become addicts, I would have said so. For someone who claims to be a language freak, you could use better reading comprehension.
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Post by sargassosea on Jul 12, 2009 9:11:05 GMT -5
Atheist –
I think I will continue to try to make my point in such a way that you might begin to understand my very strong reaction to your usage of the ‘term’ “crack whore”. If you did get it (whether you agree with it or not), then I wish you would have acknowledged that.
I know very little about you, just what I’ve read in your intro, your other comments and, of course, our interactions here.
That said, I’d like to relate an episode in my life which - looking back 18 years - proved pivotal in my understanding of Humanity, which in turn proved pivotal in my full (feminist) understanding of the Privileged/Oppressed dynamic. __________________________________________
I was staying with friends in the 'artist loft' area of Los Angeles - urban junk yards, dilapidated warehouses, lots of pit bulls and junked cars - where the nearest shopping was a Texaco truck stop. It was what many people would call a dangerous neighborhood; there were addicts and prostitutes, alcoholics and thieves and pedophiles. There were also painters and filmmakers, craftspeople, welders and students.
There was a group of around 5 young guys (very young guys) who hung around the entrance to our building and one of these boys took it upon himself to escort me to the Texaco and back in exchange for whatever change I may have after my 'shopping'. Over the course of the month I stayed with my friends this boy and I ended up talking quite a bit. This is what I learned about him and his life:
Like so many other homeless 'runaways' he had been driven from his mother's apartment by her abusive husband. At 15 years old, he had little education, no skills and brown skin - 3 strikes, according to the United States’ version of patriarchy. He squatted in one of the condemned buildings in the area and made the majority of his drug money by giving blow jobs to the truckers at the truck stop and to the other pedophiles who would cruise the neighborhood in search of boys. This part of town was well known to be 'boys only'...
‘Crack’ (‘crack’ is simply powdered cocaine in a crystallized form and is not any more/less dangerous than its powdered ‘parent’) is what made his dangerous, exploited, emotionally tattered life tolerable.
This boy had dreams and feelings and a wonderful sense of humor. He was a human being oppressed by the privileged. ____________________________________________________
I have taken extreme offense to a person calling another ‘nigger’ and been told to calm down. It’s also been suggested I ‘relax’ when I’ve taken extreme offense to a person calling another ‘bitch’, ‘cunt’, ‘whore’, ‘slut’, ‘snatch’, ‘tease’, ‘fuck bag’, etc.
So when you, Atheist, a self-proclaimed feminist, casually lay down the oppressive label “crack whore” I am going to be offended and I’m not going to “chill out”.
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Post by anatheist on Jul 12, 2009 11:47:59 GMT -5
I understand your reaction, but when I say you need to chill out, I don't mean that you shouldn't be offended by whatever it is that offends you, but that IMO you should moderate your tone when addressing something with people who have previously been peaceable and reasonable. After months of being on this forum together with no trouble, even if we don't know one another well, I can think of many much more appropriate ways to have addressed a problem. Conflating "crack whore" with "nigger" isn't helping your case with me either.
I maintain that crack whore is an appropriate title for someone who prostitutes themselves for drugs, but I will no longer use that term here since it offends you. And, again, I was speaking about the life direction of some specific people, so read it as "these specific people weren't becoming prostitutes or drug addicts, and I would not have faulted my parents for not allowing my pre-teen self to spend unsupervised time with peers who were".
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Post by xara on Jul 12, 2009 14:18:46 GMT -5
I'm not up on my animal husbandry, so I honestly do not know much about lambs or kids (the goat kind). Is there that much of a difference in how they behave? Is there much difference in mothering between the two groups, such as that sheep see their lambs as more precious as would be shown by tending them more carefully than goat moms tend their kids? Coleslaw; I'm not 100% sure of this, but in the general scheme of things, in Warren's thinking he was making an impression of being such a 'loving father'...the term "kid" was derrogatory. Kind of like in the Bible it talks often of separating the sheep from the goats...and infers that sheep are gentle and will follow any thing anywhere, and goats are like satan's side kicks? But hey, I grew up with both...sheep can be dumber than a box of rocks...and goats are, IMO, totally KYOOT! ;D I know this is probably not a really accurate explanation here... anybody got more input into than this feeble attempt of mine? I always felt being called a child was derogatory. The word child or children was always said in a nasty snide tone of voice that implied "lesser" or "incompetent." To people who called me a child when I was young, I didn't matter and my thoughts, feelings and opinions didn't matter because I was not an adult. My parents have always referred to me and my sister as their kids and that term feels loving and warm. But I always hated being called a child.
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Post by krwordgazer on Jul 12, 2009 15:41:02 GMT -5
I understand your reaction, but when I say you need to chill out, I don't mean that you shouldn't be offended by whatever it is that offends you, but that IMO you should moderate your tone when addressing something with people who have previously been peaceable and reasonable. After months of being on this forum together with no trouble, even if we don't know one another well, I can think of many much more appropriate ways to have addressed a problem. Conflating "crack whore" with "nigger" isn't helping your case with me either. I maintain that crack whore is an appropriate title for someone who prostitutes themselves for drugs, but I will no longer use that term here since it offends you. And, again, I was speaking about the life direction of some specific people, so read it as "these specific people weren't becoming prostitutes or drug addicts, and I would not have faulted my parents for not allowing my pre-teen self to spend unsupervised time with peers who were". FWIW, I interpreted AtheistintheBB's words more in the sense of reflecting her parents' perspective, not that she personally was being derogatory towards people who are prostitutes or addicted to drugs. That her parents were treating these girlfriends of hers as if they were the kind of people her parents would have labeled "crack whores." In short, I believe the whole conflict is based on a simple misunderstanding. Sargassosea, the story of the 15-year-old you told wrung my heart. As a society we need to find ways to help kids in his position, not condemn them. Xara, I hear you about the word "child." "Kid" is a much more (if you will) "kid-friendly" term in our language. One of the things that irritates me about fundamentalists is the way they will do anything, make any stretch, to go against the culture-- even in an area where there is no need and no issue. "Kid" does not mean "baby goat" in American English except on farms. Most of us don't speak farm vocabulary in our daily lives. Vyckie-- I loved what you had to say in your blog post. Children are individuals in their own right, and should be allowed to develop according to their own natures, not to be extensions of their parents. The story of Andrew scurrying around trying to avoid being noticed broke my heart. His sensitivity and desire to please remind me very much of own 10-year-old son.
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Post by philosophia on Jul 12, 2009 17:14:58 GMT -5
. Kind of like in the Bible it talks often of separating the sheep from the goats...and infers that sheep are gentle and will follow any thing anywhere, and goats are like satan's side kicks? But hey, I grew up with both...sheep can be dumber than a box of rocks...and goats are, IMO, totally KYOOT! ;D into than this feeble attempt of mine? Grandma, you are right. Children of Christians are not referred to as kids for the sake of that verse on final judgement separating the sheep from the goats. Before my hearing, my attorney was fussing at a deacon of my old church for not prosecuting my husband for embezzlement, etc. ''Why did you let him do these things?'' They are sheep. Sheep - passive unintelligent creatures that go along with the shepherd.
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Post by debrand on Jul 12, 2009 20:36:52 GMT -5
My mother is a hard person to define. But I spent most of my childhood monitoring my own emotional reactions because I was terrified of her. When she was happy, we kids had to be happy, when she was sad, we had to express sadness. Everything in life revolved around my mother. It was a horrible way to grow up. Welcome, debrand... Your mother sounds like my mom was. And I think, also Jo's mother. We should start a new thread, on Narcissism, huh? Funny thing...it's like the world had been created just for such a person. And nothing or nobody nowhow, nowhere else matters. Mine was alcoholic/abusive/narcissistic. When she was drunk, she was a laugh a minute, and everybody loved her. I used to wish she'd just stay drunk so she wouldn't be so mean. Then when I got older and realized she had some serious mental problems as well as the alcohol problem, the guilt I felt was horrendous! What kind of daughter wishes drunkeness on their poor sick mother? Etc. Ad nauseum. There are still some things I deal with, even though she's been gone since 2002. I find now I miss her...the funny her. Thank goodness for the internet. I am discovering a lot of people with parents who were similar to my mom. That is actually a comfort to me. Not that I am happy that your mom was similar to mine. LOL I miss my mom too, which is strange considering how miserable she sometimes made my life. My mom had another side to her personality that could be very funny. She also had a soft spot for animals and stray people. Six months before her death, I had to break contact with her. She was turning her abusive behavior toward my children. I don't feel guilty but I do feel sad that it couldn't have been otherwise.
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Post by grandmalou on Jul 13, 2009 8:08:52 GMT -5
Debrand, you said: "My mom had another side to her personality that could be very funny. She also had a soft spot for animals and stray people. Six months before her death, I had to break contact with her. She was turning her abusive behavior toward my children. I don't feel guilty but I do feel sad that it couldn't have been otherwise." Oddly enough, Debrand, Mom loved anything little and helpless...so yeah, animals and stray people...with my children, she was always laughing, smiling, loving, funny. To the point that they probably to this day seriously doubt that I grew up in such a hell hole of pain and abuse. Like former QF/P people, with Mom everything was about 'keeping up appearances'...what will people think??? I 'inherited' her love of strays and little helpless things. I have a gazillion cats to prove it. I think that goes back to the time, as a five year old, I was sitting under my grandmother's porch playing with a litter of kittens. I had one on my lap, but another kept trying to get up there too, and I kept pushing it away. Finally, getting extremely agitated, I threw it, and it hit a support beam under the porch and broke its neck . I ran quickly to Mom, carrying the poor little thing, and begged her to fix it. She screamed... "OH, you...you...you... MURDERER!!! You just killed your grandmother's favorite kitten! You are a HORRIBLE girl!" And she grabbed the kitty away from me and then slapped my face. I have been trying hard to "fix" every poor little kitty since that day. I have since learned that adult children of alcoholics generally spend much of their lives trying to FIX everything and every body.
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Post by grandmalou on Jul 13, 2009 8:21:39 GMT -5
Xara, no 'kidding'! Pun intended! LOL In response to your post on being called 'child' versus 'kid'... "My parents have always referred to me and my sister as their kids and that term feels loving and warm. But I always hated being called a child." My hero, Grandpa, raised goats, which were my 'friends'. His pet name for me was "Hey, Kid"...I loved it! I often refer to my two daughters (Sandy and Vyckie) as "Kidly". Hope they don't mind too much...to me it is a term of affection. Just my opinion though.
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Post by debrand on Jul 13, 2009 9:34:44 GMT -5
Debrand, you said: "My mom had another side to her personality that could be very funny. She also had a soft spot for animals and stray people. Six months before her death, I had to break contact with her. She was turning her abusive behavior toward my children. I don't feel guilty but I do feel sad that it couldn't have been otherwise." Oddly enough, Debrand, Mom loved anything little and helpless...so yeah, animals and stray people...with my children, she was always laughing, smiling, loving, funny. To the point that they probably to this day seriously doubt that I grew up in such a hell hole of pain and abuse. Like former QF/P people, with Mom everything was about 'keeping up appearances'...what will people think??? I 'inherited' her love of strays and little helpless things. I have a gazillion cats to prove it. I think that goes back to the time, as a five year old, I was sitting under my grandmother's porch playing with a litter of kittens. I had one on my lap, but another kept trying to get up there too, and I kept pushing it away. Finally, getting extremely agitated, I threw it, and it hit a support beam under the porch and broke its neck . I ran quickly to Mom, carrying the poor little thing, and begged her to fix it. She screamed... "OH, you...you...you... MURDERER!!! You just killed your grandmother's favorite kitten! You are a HORRIBLE girl!" And she grabbed the kitty away from me and then slapped my face. I have been trying hard to "fix" every poor little kitty since that day. I have since learned that adult children of alcoholics generally spend much of their lives trying to FIX everything and every body. You know, I am a fixer also. I have had two of my sons' friends come to visit and end up staying for prolong time periods just because I felt horrible about their home situations. My mom was a good grandmother until my children began to assert their own individuality. With the oldest of my two daughters this happened at an early age. Abbie could talk at a very young age and did not mind expressing her likes and dislikes. My mother's dislike of Abigail surfaced early. The kitten episode sounds like the extreme comments that my mother would make also.
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Post by cereselle on Jul 13, 2009 10:22:35 GMT -5
Oh GrandmaLou. That must have been devastating for you. You were a child, unable to understand what you did, and the guilt your mother caused you to feel would have been overwhelming. I want to take that child in my arms and hug her. *HUGS YOU*
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Post by krwordgazer on Jul 13, 2009 13:31:48 GMT -5
*hugs Grandmalou*
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lectio
Full Member
growing...
Posts: 128
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Post by lectio on Jul 14, 2009 2:17:52 GMT -5
I'm late for commenting on this post, but wanted to say that I loved it. I, too, made the hard journey out of the controlling parenting thing (ala Pearls, etc) and into a MUCH better paradigm. I cheered for you and your kids as I read. Good on you. Speaking of this exact same subject, I just wrote a guest post for a friend on this same topic: www.elizabethesther.com/threes_a_crowd/2009/07/doing-it-by-myself.html
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Post by rosa on Jul 14, 2009 8:16:18 GMT -5
Vyckie, that's really beautiful, what you wrote about John.
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Post by enlightenmentgirl on Jul 14, 2009 9:11:35 GMT -5
I really enjoyed this post and the responses to it. It seems to me, a non-QF'er, that the Quiverful/patriarchal mindset is into the theory of children as a blessing rather than the practice. That is, have all these kids, quote bible verses to support having so many, and "God will provide" when it comes to clothing, food, healthcare, etc. In theory, children should be seen and not heard, obedient to their parents and God, etc. and a whole industry seems to have grown up to force children into this mold. But as lectio and Vyckie and others have pointed out, that system in reality is exhausting, joyless, and detrimental to the children. When they broke away, began to parent differently, and started to see their kids as individuals, then the blessings started to become real. I hope I'm not putting words into anyone's mouths or sounding like I'm pontificating, but I was really struck by the real joy Vyckie wrote about in spending time with her kids now. I hope everything is going well for you and yours, and for Laura and her family.
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Post by arietty on Jul 14, 2009 9:15:08 GMT -5
"Crack whores" is a pejorative term. Its use adds a belittling, derogatory element to the intention of the sentence which I am sure was not meant by the OP. If you say "prostitute" or "drug addict" you are talking about a person with deep problems and disadvantages. When you say "crack whores" you are talking about social trash.
Though I know nothing of the kind was meant by A in the BB I personally think it's a term that any thinking, caring person should jettison.
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