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sirius
Apr 19, 2009 15:11:31 GMT -5
Post by sirius on Apr 19, 2009 15:11:31 GMT -5
I’ve spent a lot of time in the last few years debating theology and atheists on the internet. I just recently ceased participating in such discussions but found this site very fascinating and reaffirming to my beliefs. So I thought I’d drop my 2 cents in the bucket.
I’m 39 years old with a wonderful wife and 3 wonderful children. I was born again 18 years ago alone in my car on the side of the road at 2AM, without any ‘church’ or ‘preacher’ just the witness of Scripture I had been reading in the previous days. I didn’t step foot ‘in a church’ for about a year and just studied Scripture, prayed, and praised and worshiped my Jesus. When I did start listening to Christian media and ‘going to church’ I was amazed at the fallacies I heard. Where’d people read that stuff I always wondered. I went the Bible College route but couldn’t stand the false teaching and had no desire for a piece of paper stating such false indoctrination.
Am I saying I am better than everyone else? No, what I am saying is that this site, just as the writings of Dawkins, Harris, and Hitchens, are based on the false premise that they argue against the truth and the church of Jesus Christ. It’s easy to stump fallacy, but no one can stump the truth. The truth sets free so if you are not free you did not know the truth. Most Christians don’t even know what the gospel is. They think it’s just that Jesus died for their sins. You rightly realized you were not following God and were following men such as John MacArthur, but then say you prefer the Young’s Concordance because it tells you how a word is used in a particular passage? It’s written and interpreted by men that, for the most part, have the same beliefs as all the Reformed and Calvinist teachers you listed along with John MacArthur. So you simply began to ‘learn for yourself’ the same thing you were ‘learning’ from the listed men. So how did you expect to learn otherwise by still following man and mainstream christianity? Why not look up every instance of the word in question and learn the meaning for that passage through context language culture and history, allowing Scripture to define itself?
Do you need a man to tell you ‘conviction’ in Scripture is always ‘found guilty’? No you don’t, you just look up and read every instance for yourself. If belief in the one true God and apostasy from Jesus Christ is the subject then you must use the scriptural definition of the word, not mainstream christianity’s definition. It’s not even the world’s definition!!! Conviction – Preference…..whatever, you are both as wrong as you can be. You spent all that time arguing a false premise.
Many argue that non-christians can be moral based on the false premise of another fallacy of the mainstream church that they cannot. However, Scripture is quite clear that we are all born with the truth/law of conscience. The fact that someone would call themselves a Christian and argue against such a basic bible 101 teaching should hint to the intellectual that they are not arguing with the truth and the church of Jesus Christ. If the christian can’t get that right why does the intellectual consider they have anything right that they’d spend so much time refuting something Scripture obviously does not teach? Either the intellectual atheist isn’t so intellectual, they’re out to make a fast buck, they’re just a God hater for the sake of being a God hater, or any combination of the three.
Faith is simply trust, not a thing to be given. That’s Reformed and Calvinistic mainstream christian teaching, and is not biblical. It’s not a thing to possess then lose. It’s an ability all are born with. You cannot lose faith, you simply decide not to trust and have faith in any particular thing, belief, or religion. Everyone has faith in something and many things throughout any given day. Therefore faith is not and cannot be ‘the thing’, it’s just an ability all humans with intellect have and cannot get through a day without using. You decide to not trust that your ten year old car will be dependable and start every morning and get you to work. You made that decision based on fact not fiction. Faith in God being absurd is based on fact not fiction. Faith in God being highest priority is based on fact not fiction. Neither can be affirmed or denied ‘as fact’ on behalf of another. It’s up to each individual to decide.
Husbands have read…..
“If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.”
…..and think they should hate their wife. Have just a little common sense. Why do you excuse the ten in favor of the one? We are to prefer Christ over others ourselves and the world. Obviously, it’s just a s/election of one over another, not a hatred in the modern definition of the word. God preferred Jacob over Esau before they were born based on His foreknowledge that Jacob would desire the covenant blessing and Esau would despise the covenant blessings. Sadly, that is difficult for a Reformed and Calvinist indoctrinated individual to accept, while at the same time they do not like their view of their sovereign God that their religion has taught them. A Reformed/Calvinist view of an evil manipulating controlling God, mixed with husbands that are sorry excuses for God fearing wife loving husbands, is an excellent and all too often recipe used for perceived apostasy. Perceived?
Patriarchy? Quiverfull? What do these have to do with trusting that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ, the first born of many, and the only complete and finished work of God? Neither have anything to do with apostasy, neither can they. Moreover, holding a Reformed or Calvinist view of God doesn’t automatically mean one is apostate either. There’s wheat and chaff in ever bundle. Accepting the Reformed/Calvinist view of a mean sovereign God doesn’t make the view correct for you to reject and be apostate.
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sirius
Apr 19, 2009 19:37:25 GMT -5
Post by jemand on Apr 19, 2009 19:37:25 GMT -5
Oh fount of all knowledge who alone in all the world has truth!
What wonderful happenstance has brought you to this poor community of wayward women who must obviously still be wrong... because we do not say everything you, the only one with wisdom, says in your great understanding.
///// I will say "welcome" but also along with that I must say that post sounded very condescending. Perhaps you should be careful with your tone, especially to people who have been treated as idiots by dozens of equally self assure, self assigned, authorities, who also happen to contradict each other at every turn. I'm sure you will add interestingness to the boards.
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aimai
Full Member
Posts: 172
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sirius
Apr 19, 2009 19:51:03 GMT -5
Post by aimai on Apr 19, 2009 19:51:03 GMT -5
*&^% off. Siriusly.
aimai
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sirius
Apr 19, 2009 20:43:11 GMT -5
Post by Kaderin on Apr 19, 2009 20:43:11 GMT -5
Oh look, a true Scotsman! Or is it...? Sirius, I'm sure you have an interesting perspective to offer and would like to welcome you, but only if you tone down the condescension & the preaching. If you don't, then I second aimai and kindly suggest to GTFO.
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sirius
Apr 19, 2009 20:45:33 GMT -5
Post by sirius on Apr 19, 2009 20:45:33 GMT -5
So do you personally attack me because you can't address any points in my post, or because that is what you are here to do?
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sirius
Apr 19, 2009 20:48:40 GMT -5
Post by sirius on Apr 19, 2009 20:48:40 GMT -5
Kaderin, this portion of my post was in response to your call for a true christian to stand up to the fallacy.
"Many argue that non-christians can be moral based on the false premise of another fallacy of the mainstream church that they cannot. However, Scripture is quite clear that we are all born with the truth/law of conscience. The fact that someone would call themselves a Christian and argue against such a basic bible 101 teaching should hint to the intellectual that they are not arguing with the truth and the church of Jesus Christ. If the christian can’t get that right why does the intellectual consider they have anything right that they’d spend so much time refuting something Scripture obviously does not teach? Either the intellectual atheist isn’t so intellectual, they’re out to make a fast buck, they’re just a God hater for the sake of being a God hater, or any combination of the three."
Well, I did, but you seem dismayed. Why is that?
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sirius
Apr 19, 2009 21:04:09 GMT -5
Post by sirius on Apr 19, 2009 21:04:09 GMT -5
Oh fount of all knowledge who alone in all the world has truth! What wonderful happenstance has brought you to this poor community of wayward women who must obviously still be wrong... because we do not say everything you, the only one with wisdom, says in your great understanding. ///// I will say "welcome" but also along with that I must say that post sounded very condescending. Perhaps you should be careful with your tone, especially to people who have been treated as idiots by dozens of equally self assure, self assigned, authorities, who also happen to contradict each other at every turn. I'm sure you will add interestingness to the boards. I didn't know this was a community for women else I would not have joined. It was you that wondered were the men were was it not? nolongerquivering.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=open&action=display&thread=46Why were you looking for them? To have a discussion of thoughts and beliefs? Great! Then address my post not what you perceive to be my attitude!
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jeb
Junior Member
Posts: 97
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sirius
Apr 19, 2009 21:17:24 GMT -5
Post by jeb on Apr 19, 2009 21:17:24 GMT -5
Dear Sirius ~ As it happens I'm a guy too and I've wasted too much time in my life listening to self righteous, pontificating blowhards like yourself. You remind me of one of my all time favourite bumper stickers from back in the Vietnam/Nixon days. This was at the time that Nixon was talking about withdrawing from Vietnam early. So somebody made a home made bumper sticker that said, 'Nixon's father should have withdrawn early!!'. I hope it's not too impolite to suggest that perhaps your father might have been wise to do the same.
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sirius
Apr 19, 2009 21:22:21 GMT -5
Post by Kaderin on Apr 19, 2009 21:22:21 GMT -5
It's not a personal attack to criticize delivery. Nor does it make us evil to react negatively to an air of condescension and hostility. Apart from it not being a personal attack , the thought that they just take offense at your tone doesn't cross your mind? No, they must be stupid or have an evil agenda... As for your "rebuttal" of the No True Scotsman fallacy... You single out one particular claim (Atheists can't be moral), say it isn't supported by Scripture, therefore every atheist who argues the point is stupid/has an evil agenda and obviously can't see real Christianity, thereby losing any claim to the NTS-fallacy. Riiiiiight. First off, simple fact: No atheist ever hated God, ever. You cannot hate what you don't believe in. Maybe you can dislike a fictional character (as in "Gosh, Sauron in LOTR is a jerk, isn't he?"), you can disapprove of his actions ("I mean, what's with all the attempted genocide?") and of the moral teachings attributed to him ("What's with the Might makes Right mentality?"), but it's silly to speak of hatred. Nor would that hatred move you to do anything. Again, atheists who argue the point are apparently either stupid or have an evil agenda. Doesn't it occur to you that maybe the point needs arguing? That, even if it isn't scripturally supported, millions of people believe it, contributing to the oppression atheists experience? Like George Bush Sr., president of the US, who didn't consider atheists citizens because, apparently, they're unpatriotic horrible people. Your contempt for atheists and positions other than your own just drips of that introduction. Which is why we, that is I (can't really speak for others...) reacted badly to it. Look, we all want to get along here - this community strives for diverse tolerant viewpoints. Atheist, Christian, Wiccan, Agnostic, whatever. Debate and dissent is encouraged, but it should remain at all times respectful to others. If you can't be respectful, then your viewpoint can, quite frankly, kiss our collective butt.
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sirius
Apr 19, 2009 21:44:19 GMT -5
Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Apr 19, 2009 21:44:19 GMT -5
Hello Sirius.
When I lived in your world of male superiority and privilege ~ I served your "Big Daddy in the Sky" God and played by His rules.
But you have just stepped into MY world ~ and so if you have any serious desire to get anywhere with me ~ you're going to have to play it according to what works here.
First of all ~ you must never criticize me or question my judgment in any way. IF you disagree with me ~ then you should pray for me and ask God to change my heart and show me the truth. You must by your meek and gentle countenance win me over without a word. In other words, don't preach to me ~ just pray ~ because you know, if you keep bringing up all of your disagreements, then you will be like a continual dripping ~ better that I should live on the corner of the roof than to have to always be nagged by you.
If I continue in my error ~ and if you feel that in some way that detracts from your witness or prevents you from serving the Lord in the way that He desires to use you for the glory of His kingdom ~ perhaps the REAL problem is that your own selfish motivations are opening a door for Satan to deceive you into thinking that your desires are really God's desires ~ you must examine yourself to determine if possibly your own heart (which is, of course ~ deceitful and desperately wicked) has been captivated by the enemy and is being used to undermine the work which God is doing through the HEAD of this forum ~ that is, ME.
Of course, you may feel that you actually are right and I am the one who is being used by the devil ~ in that case, you do have the option of making an appeal. The way that works is that you, humbly and submissively acknowledge my authority ~ and with all humility simply state what it is that you believe I have done wrong. But then, you must only mention this to me once ~ and if I don't see your wisdom and agree ~ that is proof that it is YOU who are in the wrong and so you must go before the Lord with a humble and repentant spirit ~ beg Him to give you a submissive and accepting heart ~ and ask Him for the gift of contentment.
So there you have it, Sirius ~ welcome to MY world. ;D
Do I seem harsh and unfair? Well too bad ~ because I am the one who controls the "delete member" button. Appease me and I will show thee my tender mercy and grant you admission to my forums. Defy me and you will experience my wrath and the "great separation" when I will have no choice but to cast you out.
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sirius
Apr 19, 2009 21:55:39 GMT -5
Post by sirius on Apr 19, 2009 21:55:39 GMT -5
Apart from it not being a personal attack , the thought that they just take offense at your tone doesn't cross your mind? No, they must be stupid or have an evil agenda... As for your "rebuttal" of the No True Scotsman fallacy... You single out one particular claim (Atheists can't be moral), say it isn't supported by Scripture, therefore every atheist who argues the point is stupid/has an evil agenda and obviously can't see real christianity, thereby losing any claim to the NTS-fallacy. Riiiiiight. My tone? What tone is that? That most christians are theologically 90% wrong? Hardly a tone against intellectuals. The intellectual that argues with the christian isn’t stupid. I said the opposite. They get it. They see what I do. They see real christian doctrine and the christian does not. Why would I call them stupid? Here’s an example of an atheist that sees what most christians do not. englishatheist.org/osin.shtmlFirst off, simple fact: No atheist ever hated God, ever. You cannot hate what you don't believe in. Maybe you can dislike a fictional character (as in "Gosh, Sauron in LOTR is a jerk, isn't he?"), you can disapprove of his actions ("I mean, what's with all the attempted genocide?") and of the moral teachings attributed to him ("What's with the Might makes Right mentality?"), but it's silly to speak of hatred. Nor would that hatred move you to do anything. Again, atheists who argue the point are apparently either stupid or have an evil agenda. Doesn't it occur to you that maybe the point needs arguing? That, even if it isn't scripturally supported, millions of people believe it, contributing to the oppression atheists experience? Like George Bush Sr., president of the US, who didn't consider atheists citizens because, apparently, they're unpatriotic horrible people. Your contempt for atheists and positions other than your own just drips of that introduction. Which is why we, that is I (can't really speak for others...) reacted badly to it. Look, we all want to get along here - this community strives for diverse tolerant viewpoints. Atheist, Christian, Wiccan, Agnostic, whatever. Debate and dissent is encouraged, but it should remain at all times respectful to others. If you can't be respectful, then your viewpoint can, quite frankly, kiss our collective butt. I understand the need for the debate and that millions believe false christianity. I understand the need to profit and that the weak minded desire to feel strong. I don’t understand fighting against something that doesn’t exist. People beating the bushes look really silly don’t you agree? Even though I am a christian my view point is by far more in line with atheist than Christians in most areas concerning christian theology.
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sirius
Apr 19, 2009 22:06:15 GMT -5
Post by sirius on Apr 19, 2009 22:06:15 GMT -5
Hello Sirius. When I lived in your world of male superiority and privilege ~ I served your "Big Daddy in the Sky" God and played by His rules. But you have just stepped into MY world ~ and so if you have any serious desire to get anywhere with me ~ you're going to have to play it according to what works here. First of all ~ you must never criticize me or question my judgment in any way. IF you disagree with me ~ then you should pray for me and ask God to change my heart and show me the truth. You must by your meek and gentle countenance win me over without a word. In other words, don't preach to me ~ just pray ~ because you know, if you keep bringing up all of your disagreements, then you will be like a continual dripping ~ better that I should live on the corner of the roof than to have to always be nagged by you. If I continue in my error ~ and if you feel that in some way that detracts from your witness or prevents you from serving the Lord in the way that He desires to use you for the glory of His kingdom ~ perhaps the REAL problem is that your own selfish motivations are opening a door for Satan to deceive you into thinking that your desires are really God's desires ~ you must examine yourself to determine if possibly your own heart (which is, of course ~ deceitful and desperately wicked) has been captivated by the enemy and is being used to undermine the work which God is doing through the HEAD of this forum ~ that is, ME. Of course, you may feel that you actually are right and I am the one who is being used by the devil ~ in that case, you do have the option of making an appeal. The way that works is that you, humbly and submissively acknowledge my authority ~ and with all humility simply state what it is that you believe I have done wrong. But then, you must only mention this to me once ~ and if I don't see your wisdom and agree ~ that is proof that it is YOU who are in the wrong and so you must go before the Lord with a humble and repentant spirit ~ beg Him to give you a submissive and accepting heart ~ and ask Him for the gift of contentment. So there you have it, Sirius ~ welcome to MY world. ;D This is all irrelevant. I am not you and you are not in yesterday. I am not in your world, I am in the world. Care to address anything in my post?
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sirius
Apr 19, 2009 22:24:02 GMT -5
Post by arietty on Apr 19, 2009 22:24:02 GMT -5
HAHAHAHAHA Vyckie that was great to read!! How ludicrous does it sound! How insane and tyrannical and self-absorbed!! Based on.. being the HEAD.
All Bow to The Head!!
Who is really like the glowing head of the Wizard of Oz hiding a scared little boy behind a curtain.
;D
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linnea
Junior Member
Posts: 80
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sirius
Apr 19, 2009 23:42:23 GMT -5
Post by linnea on Apr 19, 2009 23:42:23 GMT -5
:::bowing to the Great and Terrible Vyckie:::
Sirius, you write:
<i>Am I saying I am better than everyone else? No, what I am saying is that this site, just as the writings of Dawkins, Harris, and Hitchens, are based on the false premise that they argue against the truth and the church of Jesus Christ. It’s easy to stump fallacy, but no one can stump the truth. The truth sets free so if you are not free you did not know the truth. Most Christians don’t even know what the gospel is.</i>
So, most Christians don't know the "truth" of their own religion, but you, presumably, do? And Laura and Vyckie, not to mention Dawkins, Harris, and Hitchens, are wasting their time, because they're arguing with people other than you?
I'll debate that point by saying it's a bunch of arrogant tripe.
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linnea
Junior Member
Posts: 80
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sirius
Apr 20, 2009 0:09:05 GMT -5
Post by linnea on Apr 20, 2009 0:09:05 GMT -5
I'll debate some more of Sirius's points.
First he says: If the christian can’t get that right why does the intellectual consider they have anything right that they’d spend so much time refuting something Scripture obviously does not teach? Either the intellectual atheist isn’t so intellectual, they’re out to make a fast buck, they’re just a God hater for the sake of being a God hater, or any combination of the three.
Then he says: The intellectual that argues with the christian isn’t stupid. I said the opposite.
To which I say, if you can't even keep your story straight from one post to the next, give it up.
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sirius
Apr 20, 2009 0:43:20 GMT -5
Post by themomma on Apr 20, 2009 0:43:20 GMT -5
I understand everybody's reaction to Sirius' tone, but if you read carefully what he is saying, he is saying that a large % of Christianity has it ALL WRONG...I totally agree.
The point about the intellectual christian/atheist only said that most christians don't understand and the intellectual atheist is debating "unlearned" Christians. (sure what he said after that about being God haters was pretty inflammatory, but read the rest.)
Ummm, at least I think that is what he was saying???Sirius, am I on the right track here?
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sirius
Apr 20, 2009 0:44:26 GMT -5
Post by themomma on Apr 20, 2009 0:44:26 GMT -5
Hello Sirius. When I lived in your world of male superiority and privilege ~ I served your "Big Daddy in the Sky" God and played by His rules. But you have just stepped into MY world ~ and so if you have any serious desire to get anywhere with me ~ you're going to have to play it according to what works here. First of all ~ you must never criticize me or question my judgment in any way. IF you disagree with me ~ then you should pray for me and ask God to change my heart and show me the truth. You must by your meek and gentle countenance win me over without a word. In other words, don't preach to me ~ just pray ~ because you know, if you keep bringing up all of your disagreements, then you will be like a continual dripping ~ better that I should live on the corner of the roof than to have to always be nagged by you. If I continue in my error ~ and if you feel that in some way that detracts from your witness or prevents you from serving the Lord in the way that He desires to use you for the glory of His kingdom ~ perhaps the REAL problem is that your own selfish motivations are opening a door for Satan to deceive you into thinking that your desires are really God's desires ~ you must examine yourself to determine if possibly your own heart (which is, of course ~ deceitful and desperately wicked) has been captivated by the enemy and is being used to undermine the work which God is doing through the HEAD of this forum ~ that is, ME. Of course, you may feel that you actually are right and I am the one who is being used by the devil ~ in that case, you do have the option of making an appeal. The way that works is that you, humbly and submissively acknowledge my authority ~ and with all humility simply state what it is that you believe I have done wrong. But then, you must only mention this to me once ~ and if I don't see your wisdom and agree ~ that is proof that it is YOU who are in the wrong and so you must go before the Lord with a humble and repentant spirit ~ beg Him to give you a submissive and accepting heart ~ and ask Him for the gift of contentment. So there you have it, Sirius ~ welcome to MY world. ;D Do I seem harsh and unfair? Well too bad ~ because I am the one who controls the "delete member" button. Appease me and I will show thee my tender mercy and grant you admission to my forums. Defy me and you will experience my wrath and the "great separation" when I will have no choice but to cast you out. Hey, I liked your post! It was pretty awesome but let's not kick him off before we get a go at him... pretty please???
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sirius
Apr 20, 2009 6:20:02 GMT -5
Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Apr 20, 2009 6:20:02 GMT -5
Hey, I liked your post! It was pretty awesome but let's not kick him off before we get a go at him... pretty please??? Themomma ~ because of your sincere supplication on sirius's behalf, I shall withhold my judgment against this wretched one for now ~ though he causes a stink in my nostrils. Have at 'im ;D Only please keep it to this introductory post ~ and don't allow him to hijack the other threads while I'm away in Minneapolis, okay? This is all irrelevant. I am not you and you are not in yesterday. I am not in your world, I am in the world. Care to address anything in my post? Sirius ~ I absolutely will not address anything in your post. When I lived in your world, I had no voice ~ and now here in MY world ~ I just can't hear you. I do not permit you to teach or have authority. If you want to learn anything, you must ask your wife at home, but in this assembly, you must remain silent. I say this because of the angels.
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aimai
Full Member
Posts: 172
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sirius
Apr 20, 2009 6:55:07 GMT -5
Post by aimai on Apr 20, 2009 6:55:07 GMT -5
Vyckie, Upon re-reading your response to Sirius I picked up what I, of course, missed the first time but which everyone else caught—that its a perfect gender flipped version of the way women are preached to by men. I think its so challenging to our notions of normalcy that it may actually go over the heads of (some) of us. If you ever get a chance I'd love to see you re-write some of your old advice columns to wives and mothers as advice to men. I suspect that, like your admonishment to Sirius, it would just seem screamingly nutty to order men to accept the basic limitations and denials that are seen as perfectly normal when foisted on women.
Have a good trip to Minn. Drive safely.
aimai
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sirius
Apr 20, 2009 7:37:57 GMT -5
Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Apr 20, 2009 7:37:57 GMT -5
Vyckie, Upon re-reading your response to Sirius I picked up what I, of course, missed the first time but which everyone else caught—that its a perfect gender flipped version of the way women are preached to by men. I think its so challenging to our notions of normalcy that it may actually go over the heads of (some) of us. If you ever get a chance I'd love to see you re-write some of your old advice columns to wives and mothers as advice to men. I suspect that, like your admonishment to Sirius, it would just seem screamingly nutty to order men to accept the basic limitations and denials that are seen as perfectly normal when foisted on women. Have a good trip to Minn. Drive safely. aimai LOL aimai ~ I think I could really have a lot of fun with that In a twisted way, that sort of power and domination feels pretty good ~ so I can maybe understand why the men would be reluctant to give it up.
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sirius
Apr 20, 2009 8:12:56 GMT -5
Post by anotheramy on Apr 20, 2009 8:12:56 GMT -5
I understand everybody's reaction to Sirius' tone, but if you read carefully what he is saying, he is saying that a large % of Christianity has it ALL WRONG...I totally agree. The point about the intellectual christian/atheist only said that most christians don't understand and the intellectual atheist is debating "unlearned" Christians. (sure what he said after that about being God haters was pretty inflammatory, but read the rest.) Ummm, at least I think that is what he was saying???Sirius, am I on the right track here? I'm impressed! Last night I actually tried to put one of his paragraphs into some logical argument form, but my head exploded.
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sirius
Apr 20, 2009 8:29:51 GMT -5
Post by charis on Apr 20, 2009 8:29:51 GMT -5
Hello Sirius. When I lived in your world of male superiority and privilege ~ I served your "Big Daddy in the Sky" God and played by His rules. But you have just stepped into MY world ~ and so if you have any serious desire to get anywhere with me ~ you're going to have to play it according to what works here. First of all ~ you must never criticize me or question my judgment in any way. IF you disagree with me ~ then you should pray for me and ask God to change my heart and show me the truth. You must by your meek and gentle countenance win me over without a word. In other words, don't preach to me ~ just pray ~ because you know, if you keep bringing up all of your disagreements, then you will be like a continual dripping ~ better that I should live on the corner of the roof than to have to always be nagged by you. If I continue in my error ~ and if you feel that in some way that detracts from your witness or prevents you from serving the Lord in the way that He desires to use you for the glory of His kingdom ~ perhaps the REAL problem is that your own selfish motivations are opening a door for Satan to deceive you into thinking that your desires are really God's desires ~ you must examine yourself to determine if possibly your own heart (which is, of course ~ deceitful and desperately wicked) has been captivated by the enemy and is being used to undermine the work which God is doing through the HEAD of this forum ~ that is, ME. Of course, you may feel that you actually are right and I am the one who is being used by the devil ~ in that case, you do have the option of making an appeal. The way that works is that you, humbly and submissively acknowledge my authority ~ and with all humility simply state what it is that you believe I have done wrong. But then, you must only mention this to me once ~ and if I don't see your wisdom and agree ~ that is proof that it is YOU who are in the wrong and so you must go before the Lord with a humble and repentant spirit ~ beg Him to give you a submissive and accepting heart ~ and ask Him for the gift of contentment. So there you have it, Sirius ~ welcome to MY world. ;D Do I seem harsh and unfair? Well too bad ~ because I am the one who controls the "delete member" button. Appease me and I will show thee my tender mercy and grant you admission to my forums. Defy me and you will experience my wrath and the "great separation" when I will have no choice but to cast you out. ROFLOL! Entirely toooo familiar, dontcha just love when the shoe is on the other foot? (Although I think Sirius missed the irony...)
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sirius
Apr 20, 2009 8:36:36 GMT -5
Post by charis on Apr 20, 2009 8:36:36 GMT -5
Vyckie, Upon re-reading your response to Sirius I picked up what I, of course, missed the first time but which everyone else caught—that its a perfect gender flipped version of the way women are preached to by men. I think its so challenging to our notions of normalcy that it may actually go over the heads of (some) of us. If you ever get a chance I'd love to see you re-write some of your old advice columns to wives and mothers as advice to men. I suspect that, like your admonishment to Sirius, it would just seem screamingly nutty to order men to accept the basic limitations and denials that are seen as perfectly normal when foisted on women. Have a good trip to Minn. Drive safely. aimai LOL aimai ~ I think I could really have a lot of fun with that In a twisted way, that sort of power and domination feels pretty good ~ so I can maybe understand why the men would be reluctant to give it up. Yes, please write those, Vyckie! (And God Bless your trip! I said a prayer for you.)
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lectio
Full Member
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Posts: 128
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sirius
Apr 20, 2009 10:51:59 GMT -5
Post by lectio on Apr 20, 2009 10:51:59 GMT -5
it would just seem screamingly nutty to order men to accept the basic limitations and denials that are seen as perfectly normal when foisted on women. It is so true. I don't think that men in the church world can even imagine. The conversations I've had with various church leaders, etc, at least, seem to indicate that they really don't have a clue---and most of them prefer to stay that way. They have it all neatly defined in their heads, you know, that men and women are SO different, which makes it OKAY for them to encourage the man who wants to stand behind the pulpit, and scourge the woman who dares admit the same thing. God MADE women to be silent, so a good woman will WANT to be silent, etc... It's so crazy.
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sirius
Apr 20, 2009 11:29:18 GMT -5
Post by grandmalou on Apr 20, 2009 11:29:18 GMT -5
it would just seem screamingly nutty to order men to accept the basic limitations and denials that are seen as perfectly normal when foisted on women. It is so true. I don't think that men in the church world can even imagine. The conversations I've had with various church leaders, etc, at least, seem to indicate that they really don't have a clue---and most of them prefer to stay that way. They have it all neatly defined in their heads, you know, that men and women are SO different, which makes it OKAY for them to encourage the man who wants to stand behind the pulpit, and scourge the woman who dares admit the same thing. God MADE women to be silent, so a good woman will WANT to be silent, etc... It's so crazy. Grandma here: Yesterday my husband and I went out for lunch after Church...he has always had a serious problem of interrupting me, and I ran into a lady there in the cafe with whom I started a conversation, and he immediately cut me off...speaking of good women "wanting to Be silent" and of course, I had a 'senior moment' and couldn't even remember what I was saying, when finally getting to try again. Got good and ticked! So when we got home, one of his friends came over, and danged if he didn't interrupt me again, and said, "You talk too much anyway...LOL" Well, I was not laughing! I went to his tool box, got some duct tape and stuck it on my mouth and came back into the living room, glaring. GGGRRR!!! Yes, I know...I'm shouting! Sorry Look for another comment from me on a new thread...is there any other ladies here who find that these posts and comments make them want to slap a knot on their NICE, basically SWEET husband's heads??? Grandma...over and out.... and feeling ...what?
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