Dear Vyckie,
I apologize for not spelling your name right. I am a horrible speller I must admit.
doesn't mean I discount you as a person. It means I should take a spelling class. And spell check isn't on here for names.
And I am not a very prolific writer or can exactly portray whats on my heart. But bear with me here.
Honestly, when I watched the movie I cried. WHY? because your story is VERY sad and I hate the fact that you had to endure these things. It is VERY disturbing what you went through and what your daughter went through. By your bitter tone I sense you haven't been healed but I do wish you complete healing. PLease don't judge my heart here as you say I did you. I HONESTLY wish you healing and happiness.
My point was that since you claim this lifestyle ruined your life I felt the need to show others that may be looking into this that your lifestyle "quiverfull" was a list of rules to follow. The long hair, dresses only, must have a million babies to please God, must homeschool and must submit to a husband even if he is abusive.
See we see things differently and that is OK but I felt the need to share my side of what MOST QF families are like.
Now I was NOT rejecting you. I was rejecting what you claim the lifestyle did to you. It did that to you because like I said you felt you needed to do those things to win God's favor which is very untrue.
I thought about it and I guess I don't live the quiverfull movement you claim. I don't believe we have to have long hair, wear dresses, homeschool our kids, have a million kids even if we don't want to etc.
I do believe children are an incredible blessing and that they are indeed a gift. Does it mean everyone has to have a slew. Absolutely NOT!!! We are blessed whether we have 1 or 101.
So i know you are having a hard time seeing my heart. I did read the link you sent about your suffering in the "movement" and it broke my heart. WHY? because again you were adhering to a list of rules that are not in scripture and trying to be "perfect". Not something our God requires of you at all. And I felt so sad that you endured these things all in the sake of trying to measure up or be perfect.
again it was a list of rules you followed that made you miserable.
Let's face it. NON of us are perfect. I am FAAARRRR from it. I don't always have the right responses or the right attitude. I don't think my life is for everyone. Nothing is further from the truth.
My heart (I know you don't believe me, I am really sorry for that) was NOT to condemn you. I see how you can read my message that way. My heart was to point to the fact that you have us all in a box.
Which is wrong.
There is no way I could live the lifestyle you lived. I couldn't do it. I can't be "perfect" like I said. But the good news is that I don't have to be. No one expects that of me. Not even God.
I saw in your story you weren't even allowed to go to the doctor. Again I say you were following MANS rules not God's. I have had 7 c-sections. Does that make me less of a Christian or an ungodly woman? Does it make me not have faith because I go to a doctor?
Now I am going to say I do know of a handful of people that live or are living your previous lifestyle. Interestingly enough they to have DEEP issues in their lives unhappy rebellious kids. Why? again I say because they are trying to hard to follow mans laws to become righteous before God.
I do NOT want to bash you at all. I truly feel bad my post came across that way. I suppose I did want to bash your lifestyle you were living because it is not what most of the quiverfull "movement" I see is about.
As far as managers of their home? I have that book and I follow it yet my schedule for my children looks very much different then yours did. A teen CANNOT be a mother in the home. I am sorry you felt that the "movement" was putting such a heavy burden on your daughter. Again that is what following Laws do. I realize however you really thought what you were doing was right. We ALLLLL make mistakes. Gosh I have made sooo many. FAR from perfect. I have done things that later realized it wasn't right for my children. So you did no different then other parents. And I REALLY do believe your heart was to do the best for your children. You made mistakes. I make mistakes. Does that make you less of a person. ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! You are a PRECIOUS person with real hurts and real feelings that have been very hurt.
Yet I strongly believe you are blaming your troubles on Christianity because what Christianity means to you is a list of rules and regulations to follow to be "good" and if you don't live these list of rules and such then you are going to burn in hell or that you are not pleasing to God. Its wrong thinking.
I have been living this lifestyle for about 12 years and being married for 19 years. It works for me because I am not living under law or by a list of rules like you did. I realize I am very imperfect my family is imperfect. Living a list of laws or rules cannot make anyone happy. The Christian lifestyle or any lifestyle does not mean you won't have problems. It doesn't mean you will be a perfect family or that you pretend you are happy even if you are not. So those that claim to be happy and aren't are doing themselves a diservice because they are making others look at them like they are perfect and an I must be doing something wrong attitude.
I live this lifestyle yet I still have issues in life to deal with. Geesh don't we all?
Ok I am NOT qualified to judge your heart you are very right. I am judging what I see you did on the outside by the list of rules you felt you had to follow.I am sure your heart was feeling like it was doing it for the Lord. I do believe you wanted to do it for the right reasons. But it was because I believe you may have missed the whole point of God's grace.
Gosh I need to judge my own heart. That is MY responsibility to judge my own heart and not others.
As far as my reasons for having children vs yours. I see they were VERY different.
I to am sorry you feel that I sounded like you did years ago. YOu make it sound like I haven't been in this "movement" for long. I have to say that is not true. I have even read your articles on AR magazine years ago.
I know exactly what you mean when you say some Christians are judgmental I am not saying some are not. Those are the ones that were/are living under law. Or have a holier then thou attitude.
There are several responses you made that were actually quite judging my heart as well. That is ok?
You say that you felt like I did when you were QF? I don't think so. We have felt very different.
See I have very OFTEN been judged by non christians or athiest or liberals, whatever you want to call it. especially with my desire to have children. Or how ridiculous I am because I have a belief in God.
That kind of attitude is ok?
Vyckie what is the right way to live? what standard to you now live by? Is it wrong to have alot of children because that is your hearts desire? Is it wrong to have my beliefs as a Christian? Am I entitled just as you are?
You quote this: how is it that I got the QF conviction all twisted? In what way did my QF beliefs differ from yours?
It is different once again because I don't believe I have to live by a set of rules. My QF beliefs are not I am only pleasing to God if I wear a dress, have a slew of children, wear long hair only, never go to a doctor, have a submissive attitude even if it almost kills me type belief. I don't see that in Nancy Campbell's teachings either.
I see a handful that follow the principles you followed to make themselves righteous before God and that almost always leads to destruction. I believe they were genuinely trying but they missed the whole point.
The born to breed documentary and the way the other two families lived was very different from your own. Only one had long hair, neither were wearing dresses, not sure if they homebirth or not but see the difference? They just believe that the Lord has called THEM to have these children. Doesn't mean its for everyone. If you read their blog you will see that they believe its for THEM not all people have to live their way. God has a different calling for everyone.
See your story is very much different from theirs.
I am sorry you feel like in 10 years that things may unravel for me.
I see something so different. I am sorry you feel that I am lying to myself. I have seen several QF families lead very successful lives even after 30 years. I have some good friends that are wonderful.
Perfect and rosey all the time? NO WAY there is no such thing.
If you are so confident about what you are doing why are you so worried about being judged?
I said that there are many quiverfull families leading healthy happy lives. YOu said:
The fact that my daughter felt that it would be better to be dead is no less a reason for me to reject Qf simply because you are happy with your QF life.
That is Vyckie's story. What happened to you happened to Vyckie and could very well happen to any Tom, Dick or Harry living any sort of lifestyle.
Your satisfaction with QF does not negate the real pain and abuse which many women, children, and men too, have experienced as a direct result of QF influences ~ the SAME teachings which are influencing you in the decisions you are making for your family.
But again I repeat its those woman that ARE being abused! You make it sound like the QF lifestyle is all about abuse. I am sure there are some families that tried to live by a set of rules and were abused for it. That is very sad. But as a whole that is not what I see. abuse is EVERYWHERE whether you claim to be QF or not.
how do you explain the very many happy families that live this lifestyle. Is what they are feeling not true then? Only what you feel is true? Then you are judging their hearts. That is ok for you to do?
Again I repeat. It did not work for you because you were following a list of rules:
1. long hair is a sign of holyness
2. having as many children as you can makes you pleasing to God
3. must have a home birth or do things at home not go to the dr.
4. Must train our daughters ONLY to be a helpmeet and no other life outside of that.
5. You must submit to a husband that is abusive
6. you must keep your kids from any influences
7. Wearing jumpers or dresses makes you modest anything but that is immodest.
etc etc.
Where do you see this in scripture? I do NOT see this in scripture at all. So whoever told you these things is also living under a set of rules. Yes some QF people have this list for themselves. I have seen it. I have seen some that are like you were. But again I want to point out it is a handful. Many of the teachers you claimed to have followed do not have long hair ei Nancy Campbell, do not wear dresses all the time ei Nancy campbell again.
By many of your comments you have put me and many others that are living a QF lifestyle in a box. Most QF lifestyle people do not follow all those rules you were following. No wonder it didn't work for you.
The reason why I am passionate about dispelling the myths that QF lifestyle is horrible, wicked abusive way is because you are painting the wrong picture of it. You are taking your experiences and are taking a handful of QF people and what they believe and saying that this IS a abusive "movement" or "cult". It is obvious that you were not loved by your spouse. That is NOT apart of the QF teachings. Not even in the slightest.
The list of rules you lived by are done but by a handful of families.
I am sorry to see your anger and hatred toward me. However I am not offended by that. I am just offended that you put everyone in a box. That is all.
I am sorry you are bitter. I have been there. It is a not so fun place to be. Christian or not.
Please know I am NOT perfect and never claimed to be. I am not painting a rosy picture of my family because we are humans, we make mistakes we have issues. I won't deny that. Don't we all? we can't deny that either.
You are a precious person. Your family is precious and it breaks my heart to see what you endured. I am deeply saddened by it. I wish I could sit you in my lap and give you a long hard hug. Albeit I sense you would never allow me that opportunity. But thats what would be on my heart.
I have zero anger towards you because of what you believe now.
Only that you are trying to put "quiverfull" in a nice neat little box of how wronged you were by the "movement".
By your words you still I see feel like a victim of a Christian lifestyle and how it wronged you.
However, Vyckie Garrison you ARE precious!!!!
And I will say much loved even though you won't buy it. But it is coming from the bottom of my heart. Please don't judge that just try and except it.
PS I just got your new email so this is in responding to the first one, in which I didn't last night due to being busy. I wrote the letter of not coming back on to respond before you wrote your letter so of course I am going to respond and not be the person that walked by the road and kicked you in the head.
I didn't realize this forum has no room for dialog for people that don't believe exactly the way you do? I see now it is just for support for people that feel exactly the way you do.
All the more reason why I don't belong here. But did want to come and answer some of your questions.
By the last tone of your last email I see that you are expecting me to be a perfect person just because I claim to be a Christian and are trying to heep a load of guilt over me for not measuring up to a "christian" belief system. No wonder you left the lifestyle, you constantly lived in guilt and condemnation when you didn't live up to the letter of your laws, it sounds like anyway.
I am sorry you feel that all Christians are to present a "perfect" attitude and lifestyle. Unfortunately we are humans. I like what one person wrote on here. It's almost embarrassing being human sometimes. SOOO true.
I must admit I was a bit upset with this board simply because I felt you were misrepresenting the QF lifestyle. There fore I felt justified to respond and share with others another QF view point. I repeat you make it sound that ALL quiverfull people are doomed for abuse and to become victims. SOOOO not true. Which is why I felt the need to write.
After rereading I realized I rewrote several things over *sigh. But I have to go feed the horses so I don't have time to rewrite it all. Another sign that I am not a good writer.
I pray for complete and total healing in your life.
Thank you for allowing me to post my concerns and thoughts.
I honestly do wish much success to you. I really do. I can only wish you would see me as I see you, as a person who is not perfect and who has real feelings and hopes and dreams.
I am sorry you feel so victimized and hope someday you are able to set youself free from the anger and bitterness you feel. BTDT and it nearly destroyed me.
Don't feel pressured to respond to me unless you want to, I am not here to change you, and your ideas will not change me either.
Michelle