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Post by cindy on Jan 30, 2010 13:56:50 GMT -5
jo said: As for masturbation, by and large its incredibly unacceptable in QF/P circles, just as strict if not worse than the Catholic church since they have no option for confession and penance for sins that the Catholic church affords congregants. If we are willing or are brainwashed into allowing a religion to tell us where, how, why and with whom to have sex, we're pretty much trapped into anything else they want to dictate to us.
Seems to me that's about the truth of it, eh? Y'all treat each other kindly now. John Reminds me of that old Monty Python episode where the government places a tax on "thingy." They interview different people about their feelings about the new "thingy" tax. (I always assumed thingy meant sex since I think it's Graham Chapman who says "I'd like to tax Raquel Welch because I know that she'd tax me!) I'm sure if someone in leadership found out how to monitor and tax bedroom activity directly or at least make money off of it, they would have already done so. They already use positive and negative reinforcement to control people, so this would just be more direct and "to the point." Maybe those who couldn't have kids could buy indulgences?
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Post by marmalade on Jan 30, 2010 14:26:05 GMT -5
Duggar abstention is 40 days after boys and 80 for girls. I believe this is in their book.
However, they're now denying that they're QF, which it utter crap. Once you utter the lines "We are leaving the number of children we have to God" you drank the QF kool-aid. Now that their show is such a mainstream hit, they're doing everything they can not to mention QF (although Psalm 127:3-5 was on the masthead of their website for quite a while) and while Gothard or ATI are mentioned by name, they are shown attending the Big Sandy conventions and at some point last fall, the four oldest girls were at a teen girl Gothard retreat in Wisconsin that was played down on the show as "the older girls are out of town."
Definitely trying to distance themselves from the negative connotations to keep the TLC gravytrain rolling. And now that Kelly Bates is knocked up again after nearly dying after giving birth last August, it's GAME ON for JimBoob and UberUterus to go for #20 once the 80 days has elapsed. She could well be pregnant (very early stages) before Josie even leaves the hospital!
Doctors on a couple sites I frequent have stated that the next baby could kill her with the preeclampsia coming sooner and Michelle fighting the doctors to keep the baby en utero until it reaches viability, or about the gestation age of Josie before she was delivered. Saving the "life" in such a way could kill both her and her unborn child (who will stop growing once pre-e becomes severe) as symptoms escalate.
I can't stand these hyporcrites and feel for their kids, who I hope get as far away from this stuff as they can, but I don't wish death on either Michelle or Kelly Bates because their husbands can't stop rutting.
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Post by philosophia on Jan 30, 2010 15:59:08 GMT -5
If the Duggars are denying they are QF, that is the biggest bunch of BS I have heard in a long time. Someone ought to do a correlation of their beliefs/practices with the markers of the QF movement Vyckie has posted here on the site and publicize the link.
That is doggone insane!
They are the poster family for QF!
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Post by cindy on Jan 30, 2010 17:20:42 GMT -5
I think that partly due to Joyce's book and Vyckie's outspokenness, QF has developed a bad connotation.
For that reason, I was told by someone on the phone that Stacy McDonald (Patriarch's Path, etc) that she now is not "Quiverfull" but is "Jesus-full."
It's all a PR move.
(And yes, I was told that the reference was made that they thought Stacy was full of something, but it certainly wasn't all Jesus!) ;D
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Post by Sierra on Jan 30, 2010 17:53:40 GMT -5
I think that partly due to Joyce's book and Vyckie's outspokenness, QF has developed a bad connotation. For that reason, I was told by someone on the phone that Stacy McDonald (Patriarch's Path, etc) that she now is not "Quiverfull" but is "Jesus-full." It's all a PR move. (And yes, I was told that the reference was made that they thought Stacy was full of something, but it certainly wasn't all Jesus!) ;D Fundamentalists are really slippery. The moment you begin to critique their stance, they'll shift and tell you that you really don't understand their position and that some people might believe what you say they do, but not them. Case in point: Rachel Scott. My church went out of its way to distance itself from labels like "Branhamite," choosing "The Message of the Hour" as a name for their body of texts but referring to one another only as "Believers." I go cross-eyed whenever I meet someone who identifies as a "Believer," now, as I have no idea what they actually believe. My church also thought by saying over the pulpit, "We're not a cult," they could actually convince people that they weren't a cult. But if it looks like a cult and quacks like a cult...
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nimue
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Post by nimue on Jan 30, 2010 21:40:17 GMT -5
The only things that will stop her are death, menopause or a truly emergency hysterectomy. If she gets pregnant again she obviously doesn't care if the child suffers damage or disability. Her husband should be ashamed. I don't see how he can love her and let this continue. This isn't something she can do without him. If she dies doing this who is going to take over taking care of the children she already has? Does she know how much that could damage them emotionally? I just cannot get my mind around this mindset. If they were rational, they might interpret the events of the last pregnancy as a warning.
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Post by staceyjw on Jan 30, 2010 23:39:41 GMT -5
Does anyone think about the OTHER KIDS? Today, I saw the show where they first announced the pregnancy of kid #19 (late, but it's still relevant), and the looks on the older kids faces were awful! I felt bad for them, several looked clearly annoyed, like they were thinking "are you kidding me?"- even though, when asked they spouted the "It's so great, and exciting" blah blah blah. It really just means more work, for the girls especially. I'm sure they love raising their parents kids so they can keep popping them out..... I do feel for Michelle, she has to be scared, no matter how much she trusts "the lord". How terrible for the family if she died, though I'm sure there are plenty of QF women that would jump into her place and marry JB. I wouldn't be surprised if she had several more babies before NATURE puts a stop to it. They seem to be good parents, as good as you can be with that many kids, but it's a little sad to me that they have 19 kids that are being groomed for such a limited life. Especially the girls, I wonder if they look at their mom and want the same for themselves- do they even realize there's anything else out there? IMHO, TLC is doing the world a disservice by showing this family secularized. They rarely mention their faith, or go into it in any real way. If they were simply a huge family, that would be one thing, but they are that size ONLY because of their religious beliefs. This needs to be examined. Normalizing it is dangerous. I also want to know why EVERY kid has a name starting with "J" after Jim-Bob, but NONE- not a single one- is an "M" for Michelle! Jeez, you would think she could get at least ONE named after her, after all she DID birth the19 kids!!!
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phatchick
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Post by phatchick on Jan 31, 2010 0:38:27 GMT -5
My church also thought by saying over the pulpit, "We're not a cult," they could actually convince people that they weren't a cult. But if it looks like a cult and quacks like a cult... IMNSHO, the minute somebody says, "I'm not a <fitb>" I immediately start to wonder. Methinks they doth protest to much (to quote the Bard).
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phatchick
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Post by phatchick on Jan 31, 2010 0:50:01 GMT -5
Having grown up in a large family (although not quite as large as the Duggars) I truly have to wonder at how well adjusted those kids (especially the younger ones) really are. IMO, there is just no way you can raise 19 kids and give them the individual time and attention they need. As part of a family of 6, it wasn't always easy to be able to talk to my parents, although they did a pretty good job of giving us each a chance to make our own way. With the Duggars, it looks like a one size fits all approach to childrearing; which when you think about how patriarchical families are run makes sense. God expects them to all conform to the same molds and want the same lifestyle and there doesn't seem to be much room for individual dreams and plans. I truly wonder how well they will be able to function when they go out into the "real world", they've been so isolated from any kind of reality, first by their parents and now by TLC.
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Post by susan on Jan 31, 2010 14:43:03 GMT -5
I wouldn't be surprised if she had several more babies before NATURE puts a stop to it. Well, she's 43. I think nature, in the form of time, will be putting a stop to it within the next few years. Even though many women are still menstruating well into their fifties these days, fertility is gradually declining in the years leading up to menopause. Maybe she has time for one or two more pregnancies -- but several? Of course, she HAS had multiple births, and there's a greater likelihood of that the older you get. So maybe she really will have several more babies -- I just don't imagine there will be more than one or two pregnancies. About the kids all being named with a J and not an M -- I wonder if it has something to do with how, in Patriarchy, the children all belong to the father. By the way, that's how it is in our secular legal system, too. If a single mom has children, the only way they can get her last name is if there's no way of figuring out who the dad is. They are automatically assigned the name of the dad if his identity is known.
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Post by cindy on Jan 31, 2010 15:41:06 GMT -5
About the kids all being named with a J and not an M -- I wonder if it has something to do with how, in Patriarchy, the children all belong to the father. By the way, that's how it is in our secular legal system, too. If a single mom has children, the only way they can get her last name is if there's no way of figuring out who the dad is. They are automatically assigned the name of the dad if his identity is known. It has been my experience that the Gothard-flavored folks are a bit different from the angry, brave new patriarchs that borrow from Gothard and developed from him in some ways. The groups are different to me, but then I've been around three or four different homeschooling/QF/patriarchy subcultures. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the ownership factor seems to come from the groups that followed Gothard, not Gothard directly. (Some I'm familiar with encourage the father to have his mystical spiritual experience by insisting that his be the first human hands to touch the baby as they emerge from their mother. Some of these groups use lay midwives who allow this, even though lay midwifery is not legal in the states where this is practiced. And if you're lucky, your patriarch husband won't feel compelled in his superior male wisdom to take matters into his own hands and give you a "do-it-himself" episiotomy. Because, of course, the lay midwives are women, but as women, they have inferior judgment. Men may have to intervene.) Ick! This group, and not the Gothard only group, tend to be the ones with compulsions about names. But my experience is limited, so correct me if I'm wrong about the flavors of the different sub-groups in the sub-culture. There are many people who follow Gothard but do not and would not think of participating in his homeschooling program (ATIA). What would that make them? "Soft Gothardites" as opposed to "hard patriarchs?" The softer folks seem like a whole different breed of people to me. I don't watch the TLC show (a bit too voyeuristic for my taste), and I know little about the Duggars, but they strike me as people who are more on the softer end of the continuum. (That's from my perspective which is outside the subculture of homeschooling.) Though this could be something that they soften for the general public, they don't seem to me to be like the Lindvall or the Vision Forum crowd. Or am I being naive?
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Post by dandydeluxe on Jan 31, 2010 17:18:18 GMT -5
They are the Gold-Duggars after all. Keep that film rolling! Nothing will stop this insanity except her demise.
If she expires, Mr. Sperm will no doubt find little shortage of women to attend to his carnal needs.
Just imagine the exponential gene pool nightmare if he breeds for another 30 years.........
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Post by journey on Jan 31, 2010 18:36:55 GMT -5
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chloe
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Post by chloe on Jan 31, 2010 22:16:12 GMT -5
Let me just say that, having seen friends go through the stress of having a micro-preemie, it's not going to be just Michelle who's thinking of sleep this time. Unless the Duggars are very, very unusual, the stress of the NICU, the probability of multiple crises, figuring out all of the medical jargon they're going to have to learn, the insurance forms, not to mention care for their other children...if they get pregnant this spring, I will be very surprised. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but their entire sense of a "normal" life has been disrupted, and that almost certainly includes their sex life.
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Post by rosa on Feb 1, 2010 0:51:10 GMT -5
Susan, I'm sure this varies state to state, but this isn't true where I live:
My partner's name is on our son's birth certificate, but he's got my last name (for purely aesthetic reasons - my boyfriend's Polish-American and we didnt' think it would sound good with our son's first name.)
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Post by asteli on Feb 1, 2010 2:07:29 GMT -5
Susan, I'm sure this varies state to state, but this isn't true where I live: My partner's name is on our son's birth certificate, but he's got my last name (for purely aesthetic reasons - my boyfriend's Polish-American and we didnt' think it would sound good with our son's first name.) Isn't true here either. Kids can have either parent's last name or a combined last name or even some other last name servicealberta.info/778.cfm#name
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jo
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Post by jo on Feb 1, 2010 15:14:03 GMT -5
Its 100% impossible to be "Gothard-lite" and use ATI materials.
Understand that ATI is a closely guarded secret society, very much a cult mentality. Among the many other things, to be in the ATI world means that you allow Bill Gothard himself to have final say over your reproduction. Gothard approves those permitted to be QF and who can reproduce. And yes, he does in fact forbid families he doesn't feel will produce proper soldiers to not follow QF.
He also says Cabbage Patch Kids are respresentative of Satan and quite a few other things that would make a normal, sane person's jaw drop.
Gothard is actually a step beyond normal QF/P realms. Many within the QF/P realms cannot or will not enter Gothard's world because it requires you give final control NOT to the Lord, but to the Lord's representative aka Bill Gothard. And its shrouded in such secrecy that you feel almost dirty when you find yourself in the middle of a Gothard conversation, as sometimes happens online in QF/P communities where others mingle with Gothadites.
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Post by whatkindofwoman on Feb 1, 2010 16:26:04 GMT -5
The groups are different to me, but then I've been around three or four different homeschooling/QF/patriarchy subcultures. I didn't even know there were "subcultures" of this. Wow. To me it's just one big mud puddle. Good job analyzing it and keeping it straight and not losing your mind in the process.
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autumn
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Post by autumn on Feb 1, 2010 16:36:53 GMT -5
Not true in NYS either, if a mother is unmarried she may fill out birth cert with either her name or the father's name, if he admits paternity. If married the baby usually had Dad's name but if dad consents you can give another name. My friend's daughter has her last name and her son has her (now ex)husbands name.
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Post by runawaybride on Feb 1, 2010 17:30:42 GMT -5
Its 100% impossible to be "Gothard-lite" and use ATI materials. Understand that ATI is a closely guarded secret society, very much a cult mentality. Among the many other things, to be in the ATI world means that you allow Bill Gothard himself to have final say over your reproduction. Gothard approves those permitted to be QF and who can reproduce. And yes, he does in fact forbid families he doesn't feel will produce proper soldiers to not follow QF. He also says Cabbage Patch Kids are respresentative of Satan and quite a few other things that would make a normal, sane person's jaw drop. Gothard is actually a step beyond normal QF/P realms. Many within the QF/P realms cannot or will not enter Gothard's world because it requires you give final control NOT to the Lord, but to the Lord's representative aka Bill Gothard. And its shrouded in such secrecy that you feel almost dirty when you find yourself in the middle of a Gothard conversation, as sometimes happens online in QF/P communities where others mingle with Gothadites. So Gothard himself decides who is going to reproduce? Thats nuts. I guess Jim Bob and Michelle were hand picked.
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Post by runawaybride on Feb 1, 2010 18:07:38 GMT -5
I would love to get an exposition of Gothard's teachings. The pastor of a church we were going too is into that stuff, though I don't see huge families there and the women do wear pants.
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Post by susan on Feb 1, 2010 18:59:32 GMT -5
Oh, I'm sorry that I didn't check out my sources before repeating something that I'd heard from a mom who gave birth as a single mom here in Missouri. I tried to do a quick google to find out if it really and truly is the law here that babies always get the father's last name.
But I didn't see an automatic answer, and don't have the patience or inclination to follow up on it. Anyhow, this mom had told me that she'd wanted her baby to have her last name, but was told that here, babies always get the father's last name.
It's just anecdotal -- so I have no idea whether it was actually ever the law here, or if it was, it may not even still be the law at this time.
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Post by dangermom on Feb 1, 2010 20:28:39 GMT -5
I would love to get an exposition of Gothard's teachings. The pastor of a church we were going too is into that stuff, though I don't see huge families there and the women do wear pants. Me too. Is there an explanation anywhere of the various flavors of QF and how they differ? I don't know enough.
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jo
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Post by jo on Feb 1, 2010 21:42:22 GMT -5
You can google Bill Gothard. Most of what you'll find is ex-Gothardites, whom Gothard will argue are disgruntled and not accurate in their information. I suspect they are fairly accurate from my flirting on the edge of the Gothard movement (wasn't allowed to have Cabbage Patch Kids and a lot of other stuff until my father put his foot down and forbad my mother to continue trying to head us into the world of Gothard).
To my knowledge. there is still not an official organization nor movement when it comes to QF/P circles. QF is sadly its own sibset within the whole P, conservatice Christian circles. There are some big groups and leaders (BJU, Jerry Faliwell and Liberty University, HSLDA and Patrick Henry College, Above Rubies, Vision Forum, Pearl, Gary Ezzo, etc) and there are lots of different churches, different groups and different ideas enmeshed. And while they all share the P garbage, they don't all share the QF angle, though the numbers embracing QF are rapidly growing, I suspect.
We were brought into QF by a Mennonite minister under the Conservative Mennonite Conference. It wasn't formally embraced by the Mennonites per se but was more likely indoctrinated with our minister from homeschooling circles. I do recall he and his wife began promoting AboveRubies *after* they went into QF but it wasn't their introduction. And, as anabaptists, they were outside a lot of the circles where it was rapidly growing 15 years ago. But, they were still close enough to be endoctrinated. I recall they used BJU homeschooling materials, though they would have been totally opposed to Gothard. And, Vision Forum was barely a blip on the radar back then.
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ashes
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Post by ashes on Feb 3, 2010 9:31:19 GMT -5
Susan, your friend was wrong. According to Missouri Department of Social Services "When a baby is born to an unmarried mother, the mother can give the child a last name she chooses. Usually, when the parents agree who the father is, they will agree on a last name. This is easiest to do at the hospital when the child is born. If paternity is established after the mother leaves the hospital, the child’s last name may be changed when completing the Affidavit Acknowledging Paternity. If the parents decide to change the last name after the father’s name has been added to the birth certificate, a court order is required."
People are often told things are the "law" when they are not (for instance it is NOT the law that you have to wear shoes in a store/restaurant/etc., it is a store policy, but if you don't wear shoes they'll tell you it's the law). Your friend was taken advantage of by someone (probably a nosy nurse) when she was in a very vulnerable condition. Very sad.
Also, while Michelle is not actively breast feeding Josie at this time, she is pumping regularly. My sister's twins were very small when born (one was under 2 lbs) and they have you pump and later, when the child is ready they start breast feeding. They can also simulate breast feeding while supplementing and give the stimulation needed to increase mom's supply. It's a lot of really hard work and most people don't succeed, but it can be done.
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