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Post by cindy on Feb 21, 2010 9:54:56 GMT -5
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Post by cindy on Feb 21, 2010 9:56:47 GMT -5
OOpps! Lydia is the decedent.
Zariah is the name of the 11 year old that was hospitalized for injuries including renal failure. They placed her in the foster care system.
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Post by sargassosea on Feb 21, 2010 10:03:59 GMT -5
Cindy - Sorry about my piling on! And I can dig where you're coming from now but, wow lady, that was like a one-two-punch combination of anti-feminist 'arguments' and it startled me to be sure...
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Post by philosophia on Feb 21, 2010 10:21:34 GMT -5
Cindy, For a time I was fascinated with Grace O'Malley (Granuaile sp?). As a woman expected to be always deferring, I loved the vicious, strong, independent streak she portrayed. If you have not read up on her, you will enjoy it. www.legacyofthecauldron.com/Granuaile.html ;D I think that strong, vicious women are more notable because they are rare. About the study, I think women suppress a lot of anger, which may come out in what women deem acceptable ways. (Why are women said to gossip and backbite?) One thing I would like to note about QF women is that they are often somewhat loners to start with because they don't fit in with the larger "girlfriend" culture. I'm not sure that a QF wife would fit the generalization. I found that the harsher X became, the more lenient I became, as if to counter him in some way. (I'm seeing this in hindsight) But I have known Christian women with passive husbands who were downright mean! Again, this is purely speculation based on limited observation.
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Post by WanderingOne on Feb 21, 2010 12:14:05 GMT -5
I saw that. The actual letter by Pearl is www.paradisepost.com/ci_14427371 Pearl seems to operate with different definitions of abuse, hit, corporal punishment, etc than the rest of the world. It makes me so angry that he can continue to justify this.
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Post by journey on Feb 21, 2010 12:48:21 GMT -5
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phatchick
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Medicated for Your Protection
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Post by phatchick on Feb 21, 2010 18:21:04 GMT -5
IMO, the Pearls should find themselves in court as well. If not for their teachings, that little girl would still be alive and her sister would be home well and safe. Those two have caused so much harm with their books that the mind just boggles. What I would dearly love to see is an adult or older teen who's parents used the Pearls methods taking those two to court and suing them for allowing their teachings to rot the heart out of a family.
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jo
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Post by jo on Feb 21, 2010 18:35:35 GMT -5
I know what its like to parent these children from the war ravaged regions of W. Africa. My son is one of those children. He's one of the FEW who has fully resolved his PTSD through intensive and specialized trauma therapy. His former therapist still consults with families whose children have been adopted from the region because the success rate of helping these children heal is SOO low.
My son is so very resilient and lucky. But, for most of these kids, its that resiliency that can then backfire. My son actually trained his brain to maintain a sleep-dream state of conciousness at all times. He had to re-train his brain to have a concious alert state because the coping mechanism was not necessary anymore. So, even wide awake, he was slow to respond, showed NO emotions (again a coping mechanism to keep you alive when you are in the precense of true evil) and was really retreated into himself...except when his PTSD would get triggered and he wasn't there at all but was raging against the monsters and the demons that weren't there. I was there. I took the brunt of those monster and demons. I got his siblings to safety and restrained him to keep him safe until they passed for YEARS.
I really and truly get what its like to parent these kids.
I also am fully, FULLY aware of what the 2 main facilitators who were placing children from Liberia were doing at the time this particular family adopted their children. I personally reported one of those facilitators to the US Embassy. And, I got into some bitter disputes with the personnel of the other facilitator.
They were trafficking, one for cash and the for the glory of God's kingdom. And, they were preying upon highly Conservative, Patriarchail, Evangelical and often Quiverful families for the cash the needed to continue their 'work' (and hefty paychecks but that's not to be discussed). Most adoption agencies don't work with QFs for the simple fact that you cannot get pregnant in the process of adopting. You cannot adopt within 6-12 months of having a baby (depending on the agency and the country). And, you cannot continue with an adoption if you get pregnant.
During our international adoptions were actually the only time in our QF years when we were deliberately using birth control. It turned out I had health issues which left me with secondary inferitlity. But, we were using birth control so we COULD adopt.
Liberia attracted a lot of QF/P adoptive families because these 2 faciltiators targetted those families. The 'godly' facilitator was heavily marketed via Above Rubies. Though, I'm sure they never declared to that sect they were not a true adoption agency and had been cited by the state they were in repeatedly for lying about it.
Both groups were actually stealing children from families in Liberia and selling them. It was AWFUL and the QF/P movement contributed wholly to the situation. The only dvelopment in adoption that made me happier than seeing Liberia closed to international adoptions was the day Charles Taylor was captured and transported to Sierra Leone to face his victims. On both days, I actually danced for joy to read the news.
So, the situation when this family brought these girls was AWFUL. The Liberian children were in HORRIBLE conditions. The UN had snuck into the grounds of one facilitator's compound with Liberaian officials and tried to get them closed down. The children were traumatized, often stolen from their families, treated like second rate citizens and shipped off to do-gooder Americans as bounty.
And, into the hands of those Americans, these facilitators encouraged the writings of Micheal Pearl. Now, to be fair, most of these families were already avid followers of the nut job. Most of them were well versed in their plumbing tubing and had raised their armies will great success for years already.
But, they brought traumatized children into a situation where strangers were beating them...in much the same manner their 'rescuers' in Liberia had done. They knew how to survive, but they most definitely did NOT know these people were family, parents, protectors. And, when these people acted like foe, these children respond in the same fashion.
When you put Micheal Pearl's work into the hands of families with these traumatized children, its a recipe for disaster. Four years ago, a little boy came out of the foster system traumatized and into the hands of a woman who was die-hard adovate for Pearl. Sean Pollock lost his life for that mistake. Lynn Pollock could NOT distinquish where a 'line' was when she disciplined Sean. And, the reason she couldn't find the LINE is because if you strictly follow Pearl's teachings, there is NO LINE. The LINE is when the child submits, with a cheerful spirit, and nothing less. These children are survivors. They do NOT 'submit'. They fake it, but they don't mean it in their hearts. And, Pearl flat-out says to BEAT THEM AGAIN, make their heart reflect submission. Hit them over and over and over again until their heart complies to what you want, or you will condemn them to the pits of Hell if you don't.
Micheal Pearl's teachings are death to a child who is not attached to his parents. Because, its NOT Pearl that establishes a line that keeps children alive. Read his work. Go to his website. Its very quick easy to realize that there is NO line for Pearl. The real LINE is the small voice in the back of a mother's heart that says, this is wrong, I must stop, I will do damage if I push through any further.
For these children and their detached parents, that voice doesn't exist. These mother's hearts are NOT turned to their babies to protect them because their hearts don't recognize those as their babies anymore than these children recognize them as mother. The danger is in flat-out in following these teachings at all with adopted children, especially traumatized adoptees.
Good, reputable adoption agencies would NEVER promote anything close to Micheal Pearl. The few adoption agencies that were working in Liberia had specific stances against all spanking for these children. Even the largest Christian adoption agency in this country, Bethany, has a policy against spanking adoptees. While agencies cannot screen out every die-hard, they do know to watch for it and to not place children where they truly suspect it exists.
This safety was not in place in Liberia with these facilitators. They encouraged Micheal Pearl, Garry Ezzo and Ted Tripp. They facilitated everything about their adoptions as a Christian duty to rescue these heathen children. And, they firmly espoused that those children had to be trained by the rod to be rescued from their heathen rods.
No, Micheal Pearl didn't kill this child again. But, he put a gun in her volatile mother's hand and told her to only use it to intimidate the child.
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jo
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Post by jo on Feb 21, 2010 18:48:10 GMT -5
This is worth repeating:
He insisted that Christians could achieve total sanctification (a state of sinless living) in this lifetime. We heartily disagree. We actually believe that is an un-Biblical and unhealthy teaching which can lead to any number of problems - in particular legalism and perfectionism.
The is the HEART of Micheal Pearl's teachings. Its a STRONG belief in QF/P circles in general. But, its paramount to Pearl.
If you take these traumatized children and you decide that the only way you can parent them is to force them into a SINLESS life, its a death sentence.
Those who don't lose their lives often lose their souls. The Reactive Attachment Disorder this creates is often insurmountable. But, for a few, it is so much worse because it becomes literal, physical death.
And, what Micheal Pearl is NOT putting in his latest press release is quite simple. His theology and parenting philosophy taken to its logical conclusion is an acceptance that these children are better off DEAD than not having attained the sinless life that is required of them.
In Micheal Pearl's world, Lydia is better dead than spelling that word wrong. Plain and simple. Read his site (with a BIG bowl to puke in) and its everywhere. He is very MUCH responsible for this child's death and the threat to the others. And, the sickening fact is that wackadoo's sphere of influence is GROWING and infilitrating the non-QF/non-P Evangelical community at large.
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Post by cindy on Feb 22, 2010 0:02:01 GMT -5
Catching up on this most disturbing thread. Philosophia, I look forward to reading about this woman you mention. I agree wholeheartedly. The toughies stick out in our minds because they don't blend into the background. Sargossa Sea, I love you! Jo and everyone, Such insightful thoughts and important ideas. I'd say something more meaningful, but I am too stuck on trying to process all of this. I suppose like I was when I first learned that people REALLY did this stuff. Thank you for posting links to these other posts. So sad.
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nimue
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Post by nimue on Feb 22, 2010 0:11:29 GMT -5
Anyone who has seen the book, is this reviewer correct? www.amazon.com/review/RMCSJ1K1CEQ1F/ref=cm_cr_dp_cmtie=UTF8&ASIN=1892112000&nodeID=283155#wasThisHelpfulIf this stuff is what is in the book, these people are sick and shouldn't have a dog in their home, much less a child. I doubt the Pearl's will end up in criminal court (except for any abuse they themselves may be committing on their own children). I don't think its illegal to write/publish instruction manuals for felonies. I believe that you can buy bomb making books, pot growing books, etc. The most disturbing thing is how they are forcing the children to hide their emotions. The beatings will continue until morale improves. I think these kids are going to have serious, serious psychological problems when they are adults.
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Post by rosa on Feb 22, 2010 12:20:19 GMT -5
Nimue, at least one of their daughters, Rebekah (sp?) is continuing their "ministry" with her husband, a good distance from her parents because they deliberately chose the state with the least restrictive laws they could find. Several other are working for their parents spreading the word.
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jo
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Post by jo on Feb 22, 2010 14:41:06 GMT -5
The review of the book posted is absolutely correct and just the tip of the iceberg. The bottom line is what the blog posted, and that is this concept that a sinless nature can be obtained on earth. I don't care what religion you are, just contemplate the implications if you believe a child can be PERFECT...and that its your job to beat them into perfection. That is the heart of the danger of Pearl and his methods.
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Post by krwordgazer on Feb 22, 2010 16:23:21 GMT -5
This is all so hard to read; I had a lot of trouble sleeping last night, thinking about these horror stories. I think that if this is a substantial component of QF teachings, we need a FAQ refuting this kind of "biblical child-rearing." Anyone who feels able to do this or provide input, please contact me.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Feb 22, 2010 16:43:46 GMT -5
This is all so hard to read; I had a lot of trouble sleeping last night, thinking about these horror stories. I think that if this is a substantial component of QF teachings, we need a FAQ refuting this kind of "biblical child-rearing." Anyone who feels able to do this or provide input, please contact me. This is an excellent idea, KR ~ I bet Cindy would be a big help with this!
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jo
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Post by jo on Feb 22, 2010 16:44:09 GMT -5
Fortunately for you, refuting this type of christian parenting has already been done.
I would look both at Mothering.com and gentlechristianmothers.com for the answer.
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Post by rosa on Feb 22, 2010 16:45:11 GMT -5
I think another FAQ about why beating your child isn't Biblical would be great, and crosslinking with the many gentle/grace parenting sites out there that come from a Biblical perspective would be really good, too. But I'm not sure it's specifically Quiverful - the spare the rod stuff seems to be a fundamentalist mainstay and, to a lesser extent, a part of Evangelical culture. It looks from the outside like one of the places where the QF types are going with other conservative churches instead of pulling them along.
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Post by gloriamarilyn on Feb 22, 2010 17:32:59 GMT -5
Ugh- this is majorly triggering! I spent a good part of Saturday crying as I remembered all the physical and psychological abuse I suffered as a child and young person. It's weird- I get to the point where I think I'm ok, and then suddenly I get hit with a wall of grief and anger.
So much of what could have been was destroyed- it makes me want to scream!
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Post by km on Feb 22, 2010 17:58:07 GMT -5
I'm confused about some of the terminology here.
Is there a difference between attachment parenting and attachment therapy? (I've read about "attachment therapy" being linked to the "rebirthing" rituals that have resulted in death by suffocation--and other abuse. i.e., the abuse comes through the enforcement of closeness or whatever. I've heard about it being especially abusive in adoption cases, in which children may not feel an immediate bond to the parents.).
Also, have the Pearls been linked to any of this "attachment therapy"? Or is their philosophy more about "detachment"? (Leave the kid crying, etc.)
I know that some people here have lauded attachment parenting, and I'm not trying to start a fight with you. I don't really know very much about this. I ask because I've had an ongoing conversation about it with a psychology student who tells me that some of this stuff is, in fact, legit, but that it has sometimes been used in abusive ways often linked to QF/P.
So, I'm curious if y'all know anything about this? And if it has anything at all to do with the Pearls? I will try to come up with some links, but for the moment... I remember a story from a year or so ago about several adoptees whose parents starved them nearly to death (it came out later that they were Christian fundamentalists with links to QF who were providing "attachment therapy.").
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Post by asteli on Feb 22, 2010 19:29:33 GMT -5
Attachment parenting is a parenting philosophy which starts at birth. The primary motivation is respect for your children and responding to their needs. It was popularized by pediatrician & Christian Dr. Sears. parenting.ivillage.com/baby/bparentstyle/0,,489j,00.html I think it's partly named for attachment theory( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_theory) , which is a legit & well recognized understanding of how children relate to their caregivers & how that affects them Attachment parenting tries to create secure, well attached children. Attachment therapy is used to try to treat attachment disorders en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_therapySome of what the Pearl's promote seems like attachment parenting, but the motivation is control & manipulation.
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jo
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Post by jo on Feb 22, 2010 20:05:49 GMT -5
As already mentioned, Attachment Parenting was coined by William and Martha Sears...who btw wrote a whole Christian Parenting book about AP and Biblical parenting aka NOT spanking your kids.
Attachment theory probably has some roots in Attachment Parenting, but most who deal with Attachment Therapy and Attachment theory have little to no understanding of Attachment Parenting per se.
Pearl and this method of parenting is the anti-thesis of attachment parenting. The style of parenting espoused by the Pearls destroys attachment, not promote it.
Rebirthing is an old, antiquated form of coercisve attachment therapy. Attachment therapy per se is recognized and effective. Coercisve therapy which was flourished under attachment therapy is debunked and not sactioned by ANYONE.
But, attachment issues is an aspect of adoption in that adoptees are often not attached to their families. Mildly, its found in the reality that almost all adoption agencies recommend attachment parenting and activities which promote attachment and bonding with adoptees. When attachment and bonding is failing, attachment therapy is primarily a form of therapy whereby a therapist serves as a facilitator to attempt to teach attachment and bonding behaviors to a mother and child.
Both attachment parenting AND attachment therapy would take a strong, strong stance of NEVER spanking an adoptee. Pearl, otoh, says to spank liberally, early and until their submit their soul to your authority.
I cannot speak to all of the die-hard, conservative and excessive parenting gurus found with Conservative Christian circles. But, I can tell you that Pearl was born specifically within the QF movement. The Pearls are QF, home church, reject US society, 100% WOS, homeschooling, etc. Were it not for the QF movement, the Pearls would have been a blip on the radar and disappeared into oblivion. While Gary Ezzo could be argued to be more mainstream, Pearl is extreme even for Ezzo and Ted Tripp supporters. Its only in a world where you must maintain that perfect order of many children in order to be a good witness that anyone would consider it acceptable to start hitting a 6 month old infant with a switch to help her with her willful disobedience.
If the QF movement had not risen in rank and popularity as the Pearls began their ministry, they would have disappeared altogether. Instead, there has been an increasing movement of checking out from society within the QF that has caused families to ignore the checks and balances a church body would ordinarily provide for a whack job such as the Pearls.
Because the QF movement was already well versed in checking OUT, it has been easy to check OUT and accept the unthinking and unfallomable concepts espoused by the Pearls. Normal, sane individuals would ordinarily run away. Instead, they conclude this is how you maintain order within the home and continue to have children and embrace Micheal Pearl by the droves.
Honestly, you can clearly see the link between QF/P and the Pearls in Debi Pearl's Created to Be His Helpmeet. Once you fall down that rabbit hole and start reading that dribble, you begin to see the connectsion quite clearly. No Greater Joy is a success BECAUSE of the QF movement and no other reason. Sadly, as their success grows via word of mouth, they infiltrate more mainstream Christianity with their beliefs. Sadly, this is accomplished because of all those QF/P families who are such stunning witnesses to the perfection which can be obtained by beating your children Pearl-style--within an inch of their lives.
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Post by rosa on Feb 22, 2010 21:52:53 GMT -5
Oh, Jo! Thank you - I had forgotten about Created to Be His Helpmeet. The whole ministry is sick.
And, Gloriamarilyn, I'm so sorry this is triggering you.
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Post by km on Feb 22, 2010 22:05:29 GMT -5
Thanks for answering. So, I'm finding stuff like this that makes it look like attachment therapy is coercive by nature. But what you're saying is that most of these techniques are outmoded? So, if it's not this "holding therapy" and stuff, is it yelling? I found something that says you're supposed to "disturb the disturbed" by screaming at them, but I know this is not what any of you are talking about. Or is it just, I don't know, hanging out? Going out for ice cream? books.google.com/books?id=di1kBr4doU4C&pg=RA1-PA134&lpg=RA1-PA134&dq=attachment+therapy+fundamentalist+christians&source=bl&ots=9JlIlKgbIT&sig=424_8Sau9ZzSQHh54Uz8xvkY3vk&hl=en&ei=HT-DS6bCIIGvtgeLybz0Ag&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=falsewww.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/at.htmlList of children killed through the use of coercive attachment techniques: whatstheharm.net/attachmenttherapy.htmlwww.ntskeptics.org/news/news2004-05-27.htmbastardette.blogspot.com/2008/08/therapeutic-murders-of-candace-newmaker.html(TRIGGER WARNING) www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKonPEeHZ-ELinks between attachment therapy/theory and the "ex-gay movement": www.beyondexgay.com/Narratives/Peggystopchildtorture.org/2009/02/22/attachmentholding-therapy-inspired-gay-to-straight-movement-leader/A website for survivors of attachment therapy abuse: stopchildtorture.org/So, I'm going to be honest. This is why I'm bringing this up: All of us--including me--have in the past been drawn to coercive systems in the past, and reading this stuff... is *scary.* How do you separate legitimate attachment therapy from these kinds of horror stories? I guess I'm saying... I was a little freaked out when I saw so many uncomplicated endorsements of attachment parenting here, having heard about sooo many child abuse cases related to it. But here's the thing... How can we say that abuse cases connected to the Pearls are primarily about the teachings if...we don't say that about the deaths connected to alternative therapies like attachment therapy? There seems to be agreement here that this recent death involving the teachings of the Pearls...was in some way brought about by the teachings of the Pearls. So...how can we not say that about Attachment Therapy too? Or, in other words... What's the difference between saying that "this family was an aberration" and "these abusive cases of attachment were aberrations"? I know that many of you are more well-read on the topic than I am, so I thought this would be a good place to ask the question.
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Post by km on Feb 22, 2010 22:08:25 GMT -5
And to be sure I'm clear... I agree with the general sentiment here about the Pearls' teachings leading to abuse.
I am...wary about Attachment Therapy since I've heard even more horror stories about it than about the Pearls.
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Post by km on Feb 22, 2010 22:12:28 GMT -5
Put another way...
From what I'm reading. It looks like there could be some equally warped systems at work.
The Pearls advocate showing love to a child by beating her.
Some versions of attachment therapy/parenting advocate showing love to a child by screaming at her for hours. ("disturbing the disturbed")
And the bad abuse is probably found at the most extreme ends of both systems... But I'm nevertheless alarmed by the endorsement of either. Am I making sense?
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