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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Mar 17, 2010 12:11:09 GMT -5
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Post by anonymous on Mar 17, 2010 13:04:09 GMT -5
Today Lydia Schatz would have turned 8. New information on alleged beating death of Paradise girl www.khsltv.com/content/localnews/story/New-information-on-alleged-beating-death-of/jbF3C2lmaUimUdY16v5x6A.cspxAction News has new information on the 7 year old girl from Paradise who investigators say was beaten to death by her adoptive parents. On Tuesday, the autopsy results were released. The coroner's report shows Kevin and Elizabeth Schatz's 7 year old daughter died from Rhabdomyolsis. The condition is a rapid breakdown of muscle tissue that releases by-products into the bloodstream, damaging the kidneys.
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Post by hopewell on Mar 17, 2010 13:49:31 GMT -5
To answer "wisely?" Would that be opposed to answering "truthfully?" Wish I could watch--someone please post the link.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Mar 17, 2010 14:00:56 GMT -5
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nora
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Post by nora on Mar 17, 2010 14:08:24 GMT -5
Let's please hope political correctness doesn't ruin this golden opportunity to stop these monsters.
Let's hope the interviewer has done the research, read the books, pulled the quotes the Schatzes followed to a tee as they brutally beat their daughter to death.
Let's hope this time, the world sees the truth about these people.
Michael Pearl is insane, I believe, and will probably look at this as an opportunity to show the world what a "Godly" man he is, but if the interviewer can force him to come back to the words he wrote and how they were followed verbatim in this tragic, heinous death, then the world will see the truth.
Perhaps then, too, Amazon and Borders will be shamed into pulling the Pearls' material from their listings.
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davel
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Post by davel on Mar 17, 2010 15:29:27 GMT -5
The condition is a rapid breakdown of muscle tissue that releases by-products into the bloodstream, damaging the kidneys. Keep in mind that "rapid breakdown of muscle tissue" in this case refers to a little girl being literally tenderized like a f___ing steak.
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Post by usotsuki on Mar 17, 2010 15:59:53 GMT -5
Goes to show you just how little humanity is left in the Pearls and their sycoph...I mean "devoted readers" >_<
YOU DO NOT BEAT A CHILD TO A PULP, EVER. No matter how much they cross you. Yeesh >_<
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Post by Marsha on Mar 17, 2010 17:00:36 GMT -5
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Post by walkinintheway on Mar 17, 2010 18:24:48 GMT -5
the other side's opinion: www.walkinintheway.wordpress.com and no i don't have a quiverful, unless you consider 3 with her tubes tied a quiverful...I am not a repressed, head covered, skirt only woman...i am just a homeschool mom who has learned alot from the Pearls. do i agree with everything they say?? no, but they do not deserve such harsh treatment, and no they do not teach whipping your children to death. this is just one person's opinion if you are willing to see the other side and opposing comments spoken nicely are welcome
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Post by usotsuki on Mar 17, 2010 18:50:52 GMT -5
I think people here have generally been ON the other side at some point. I've read what the Pearls advocate and consider it torture; how much more the acts of someone who takes it to its logical extreme?
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Post by walkinintheway on Mar 17, 2010 19:09:28 GMT -5
out of the thousands who have read and benefited from the Pearl's ministry, I hardly think that 2 tragedies where people supposedly were "followers" of their ideas is proof of anything.
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davel
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Post by davel on Mar 17, 2010 20:47:37 GMT -5
out of the thousands who have read and benefited from the Pearl's ministry, I hardly think that 2 tragedies where people supposedly were "followers" of their ideas is proof of anything. Is there any sort of systematic, objective evidence that anyone has actually benefited from it?
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Post by mothersson on Mar 17, 2010 21:09:36 GMT -5
twitter.com/ngjministries state that the Pearl interview is to be postponed till Friday. It is supposed to air between 7- 8 AM
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Post by doggie on Mar 17, 2010 22:51:31 GMT -5
out of the thousands who have read and benefited from the Pearl's ministry, I hardly think that 2 tragedies where people supposedly were "followers" of their ideas is proof of anything. how can beating your children with plastic plumbers pipe be a good thing? how can beating happiness into your children be a good thing?
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Mar 17, 2010 23:40:04 GMT -5
It is unlikely that the "breaking news" has anything to do with Michael Pearl ~ my guess is he simply got bumped for a bigger story. I sent an email to The Early Show this afternoon ~ followed it up with a phone call to make sure that someone who matters actually sees my note. After I told the receptionist that I was a former follower of NGJ, she put me on hold ~ then asked me for my phone number and said the producer would be calling me. So I waited ... but never did get a call. Since the interview has been postponed until Friday, at least that gives some extra time ~ I'll try calling again tomorrow. "walkinintheway" ~ since it's late and it has been a long day and I'm tired ~ I am going to dispense with my usual diplomacy and just tell you straight that your drive-by link drop here at NLQ is out of line, offensive and unwelcome. To begin with ~ your username "walkinintheway" immediately strikes me as prideful and condescending. You are quite confident that you are walkin' in "the way" ~ good for you ~ so hip and so smug. You don't have a quiverfull ~ only 3 children and tubes tied ~ you're not repressed, head covered or skirt only ~ irrefutable evidence of your free-thinking nonconformity ~ you do not fit the stereotype which you assume we at NLQ make about what qualifies a woman as "Quiverfull." Let me just say, walkinintheway ~ that in my ultra-fundie days, I, too, considered myself thoughtful, deliberate and discerning regarding the popular teachings which I encountered as a homeschooler. I didn't buy into every single point ~ I had my own mind and could study the bible for myself ~ I had the Holy Spirit to guide me in "the way." When I read TTUAC, I was personally appalled ~ didn't finish the book and searched the scriptures for myself to discover that Pearl's teachings are unbiblical. The home church we attended LOVED Michael Pearl ~ they even sponsored him to come and speak on child training in our area. I was such a "rebel" that I did not share their enthusiasm ~ made excuses when asked to run an ad in our family newspaper or contact like-minded members of our mailing list to promote the Pearl events. But here's the truth, walkinintheway ~ for all of my independent thinking and discernment ~ I was nevertheless influenced by Michael Pearl's child training book. I had accepted the adversarial relationship which Pearl teaches necessarily defines parent/child relations ~ I believed that instant obedience was absolutely necessary for the physical and spiritual well-being of my children ~ I accepted Pearl's idea that it's all about power and a battle of the wills which I, as a parent, MUST win every time. walkinintheway ~ do you believe in accountability? A child has died. My friend, Laura tells me that she's known Kevin and Elizabeth Shatz since before they were married ~ they are a kind, godly couple who would never hit their children in anger. Laura is stunned, shocked ~ horror-stricken ~ she cannot believe that her meek, loving friends have truly killed their little girl. "It is impossible!" The fact that so many Christian parents read Michael Pearl's child-training advice and believe it can be applied lovingly and in moderation is chilling. I noticed a commenter on your blog quoted TTUAC verbatim ~ even citing page numbers ~ of truly horrifying advice which IS child abuse and potentially deadly~ and in response, you quote all the nice stuff Pearl had to say as though that should cancel out the abusive points. Here's something I learned from a really hip youth pastor ~ he was so trendy and sophisticated that we naturally had to protect our children from his "pop-Christianity" influence: The youth pastor had the teens mix up the best ingredients for brownies ~ yum! They preheated the oven and while they waited, they all went outside and watched as this very cool pastor used a spatula to scrape the tiniest speck of dog poop off the lawn ~ carried it back inside, and proceeded to mix it in with the brownie batter ~ poured it all into a baking pan and placed it in the over ~ yuck!! What's the problem? the pastor asked the teens ~ It's just one little speck of dog poop ~ the rest of the batter is perfectly good! Of course, every last teen refused to eat the brownies ~ the point being that a whole lot of good stuff doesn't make it okay to eat dog poop. And the problem with this analogy is that the "dog poop" in TTUAC is not merely disgusting and unappetizing ~ it is warped and twisted and potentially deadly. walkinintheway ~ you say: this is just one person's opinion if you are willing to see the other side and opposing comments spoken nicely are welcome.What a load of crap! Just one person's opinion (one person who happens to be walkin' in "the way") i f you are willing to listen to the other side (you assume that if we would just listen, we'd see your point and agree with you ~ if we continue to disagree, we must not really be listening) and opposing comments spoken nicely are welcome ~ I suppose my opposing comment here would not be welcome since I'm not speaking "nicely" ~ when a little girl who should have been celebrating her 8th birthday this week is dead and her parents ~ good Christian parents who held the highest standards and sought always and only to be "walkin' in the way" are sitting in jail ~ accused of beating her to death ~ there's no reason why those of us who oppose the diabolical child-training methods which are responsible for this tragedy ought to speak nicely. TTUAC is evil ~ pure and simple. walkinintheway ~ if you are employing Michael Pearl's parenting advice with your own children ~ you need to think long and hard ~ pray about it ~ seek the Lord's direction ~ search the scriptures ~ ask your husband's opinion ~ talk to your pediatrician (you do take your kids to the doctor?) ~ find out for yourself why so many people ~ Christians and secularists alike: www.tulipgirl.com/index.php/2010/03/speaking-out-updated/ ~ all are united and in complete agreement in their opposition to Michael Pearl and No Greater Joy. Do not fool yourself into thinking that Kevin and Elizabeth Shatz's story could not be your own. walkinintheway ~ you owe it to your children to investigate this matter thoroughly so that one day, it will not be your own daughter writing her story of abuse for No Longer Quivering: nolongerquivering.com/nlq-stories-series/ ~ read RazingRuth's story and then come back to this forum and let's have a discussion about child-training.
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Post by debrand on Mar 18, 2010 6:50:28 GMT -5
Ever wonder how obviously evil dictators, cult leaders and tyrants get the masses to follow them? For those on the outside it seems so obvious that these people are deluded.
If abusive leaders only taught what was bad, they would have no followers. Instead they mix some truth and goodness in with the evil. People follow what they strongly agree with and overlook the parts that they don't. Over time, followers begin to gradually accept more and more what they would have originally thought of as wrong.
Of course the Pearls combine a little truth with their poison, who would listen to them if they didn't?
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Post by debrand on Mar 18, 2010 6:53:56 GMT -5
the other side's opinion: www.walkinintheway.wordpress.com and no i don't have a quiverful, unless you consider 3 with her tubes tied a quiverful...I am not a repressed, head covered, skirt only woman...i am just a homeschool mom who has learned alot from the Pearls. do i agree with everything they say?? no, but they do not deserve such harsh treatment, and no they do not teach whipping your children to death. this is just one person's opinion if you are willing to see the other side and opposing comments spoken nicely are welcome Yes, I know that people follow the Pearls. I have read most of the reasons that people give for listening to this family. No, I don't need to go on your site. It would depress me far too much.
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Post by anonymous on Mar 18, 2010 13:26:25 GMT -5
Psychologist Alice Miller wrote a book detailing how similar child 'training' methods popular in Germany for over 100 years damaged children and helped create a society of obedient followers of authority figures. It is called 'For Your Own Good: Hidden Cruelty in Child-Rearing and the Roots of Violence' She kindly granted permission for the complete text to be posted on NoSpank.net @ www.nospank.net/fyog.htmBreeding Grounds of Hatred
GUIDES TO CHILD-REARING FROM TWO CENTURIES
Those concerned with raising children have always had great trouble dealing with "obstinacy," willfulness, defiance, and the exuberant character of children's emotions. They are repeatedly reminded that they cannot begin to teach obedience too soon. The following passage by J. Sulzer, written in 1748, will serve as an illustration of this:
As far as willfulness is concerned, this expresses itself as a natural recourse in tenderest childhood as soon as children are able to make their desire for something known by means of gestures. They see something they want but cannot have; they become angry, cry, and flail about. Or they are given something that does not please them; they fling it aside and begin to cry. These are dangerous faults that hinder their entire education and encourage undesirable qualities in children. If willfulness and wickedness are not driven out, it is impossible to give a child a good education. The moment these flaws appear in a child, it is high time to resist this evil so that it does not become ingrained through habit and the children do not become thoroughly depraved.
Therefore, I advise all those whose concern is the education of children to make it their main occupation to drive out willfulness and wickedness and to persist until they have reached their goal. As I have remarked above, it is impossible to reason with young children; thus, willfulness must be driven out in a methodical manner, and there is no other recourse for this purpose than to show children one is serious. If one gives in to their willfulness once, the second time it will be more pronounced and more difficult to drive out. Once children have learned that anger and tears will win them their own way, they will not fail to use the same methods again. They will finally become the masters of their parents and of their nursemaids and will have a bad, willful, and unbearable disposition with which they will trouble and torment their parents ever after as the well-earned reward for the "good" upbringing they were given. But if parents are fortunate enough to drive out willfulness from the very beginning by means of scolding and the rod, they will have obedient, docile, and good children whom they can later provide with a good education. If a good basis for education is to be established, then one must not cease toiling until one sees that all willfulness is gone, for there is absolutely no place for it. Let no one make the mistake of thinking he will be able to obtain any good results before he has eliminated these two major faults. He will toil in vain. This is where the foundation first must be laid.
These, then, are the two most important matters one must attend to in the child's first year. When he is over a year old, and is beginning to understand and speak somewhat, one must concentrate on other things as well, yet always with the understanding that willfulness must be the main target of all our toils until it is completely abolished. It is always our main purpose to make children into righteous, virtuous persons, and parents should be ever mindful of this when they regard their children so that they will miss no opportunity to labor over them. They must also keep very fresh in their minds the outline or image of a mind disposed to virtue, as described above, so that they know what is to be undertaken. The first and foremost matter to be attended to is implanting in children a love of order; this is the first step we require in the way of virtue. In the first three years, however, this -- like all things one undertakes with children -- can come 'about only in a quite mechanical way. Everything must follow the rules of orderliness. Food and drink, clothing, sleep, and indeed the child's entire little household must be orderly and must never be altered in the least to accommodate their willfulness or whims so that they may learn in earliest childhood to submit strictly to the rules of orderliness. The order one insists upon has an indisputable influence on their minds, and if children become accustomed to orderliness at a very early age, they will suppose thereafter that this is completely natural because they no longer realize that it has been artfully instilled in them, If, out of indulgence, one alters the order of the child's little household as often as his whim shall dictate, then he will come to think that orderliness is not of great importance but must always yield to our whim. Such a false assumption would cause widespread damage to the moral life, as may easily be deduced from what I have said above about order. When children are of an age to be reasoned with, one must take every opportunity to present order to them as something sacred and inviolable. If they want to have something that offends against order, then one should say to them: my dear child, this is impossible; this offends against order, which must never be breached, and so on. . . .
The second major matter to which one must dedicate oneself beginning with the second and third year is a strict obedience to parents and superiors and a trusting acceptance of all they do. These qualities are not only absolutely necessary for the success of the child's education, but they have a very strong influence on education in general, They are so essential because they impart to the mind orderliness per se and a spirit of submission to the laws, A child who is used to obeying his parents will also willingly submit to the laws and rules of reason once he is on his own and his own master, since he is already accustomed not to act in accordance with his own will. Obedience is so important that all education is actually nothing other than learning how to obey. It is a generally recognized principle that persons of high estate who are destined to rule whole nations must learn the art of governance by way of first learning obedience. Qui nescit obedire, nescit imperare: the reason for this is that obedience teaches a person to be zealous in observing the law, which is the first quality of a ruler. Thus, after one has driven out willfulness as a result of one's first labors with children, the chief 'goal of one's further labors must be obedience. It is not very easy, however, to implant obedience in children. It is quite natural for the child's soul to want to have a will of its own, and things that are not done correctly in the first two years will be difficult to rectify thereafter. One of the advantages of these early years is that then force and compulsion can be used. Over the years, children forget everything that happened to them in early childhood. If their wills can be broken at this time, they will never remember afterwards that they had a will, and for this very reason the severity that is required will not have any serious consequences.
Just as soon as children develop awareness, it is essential to demonstrate to them by word and deed that they must submit to the will of their parents. Obedience requires children to (I) willingly do as they are told, (2) willingly refrain from doing what is forbidden, and (3) accept the rules made for their sake. {J. Sulzer, Versuch von der Erziehung und Unterweisung der Kinder (An Essay on the Education and Instruction of Children), 1748, quoted in Rutschky}
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Post by mothersson on Mar 18, 2010 14:12:07 GMT -5
Some Pearl fans do not necessarily believe that little Lydia died from being beaten to death: "She takes it as a fact that the child died as a result of the parents beating her to death. She then goes on to speculate about their mindset at the time of the child's death". "If the friends acquaintances accounts of this couple are accurate, it is more likely that the authorities found themselves in a spot that required they take action because a child had died". www.7xsunday.net/forum/index.php/topic,25818.0.html
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Post by Mozen on Mar 18, 2010 15:33:15 GMT -5
I notice your blog says: I am thrilled that Mr. Pearl will be on the Early Show Friday morning, I am praying that the Lord would give him wisdom and the hosts laryngitis!What a great Christian you are, praying for the show hosts to become ill. That's fucking sick and you are obviously deranged.
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chris
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Post by chris on Mar 18, 2010 17:43:04 GMT -5
THE CBS EARLY SHOW'S E-MAIL: earlyshow@cbs.com.
THE CBS EARLY SHOW'S PHONE: (212) 975-2824
If you can't watch the show live, the show's web page does allow readers to post COMMENTS. Whether you saw the actual show or not, PLEASE go to the Early Show webpage on Friday and give your views on the Pearls and the culpability of their toxic parenting doctrines in Lydia Schatz's death! Mr. Pearl is trying to weasel out of this without admitting error so he and Debi can continue preaching the same old dangerous reckless pseudo-Biblical line on child discipline. We need to make sure he doesn't succeed!
Chris
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Post by mothersson on Mar 18, 2010 18:59:51 GMT -5
Have any of you seen their Facebook page that says the interview is canceled? "The interview is canceled. At this point we do not know if there will be one later or not. God is in control and judging by this interview being canceled it was not meant to happen. We are so thankful for all of your prayers. God is faithful and hears His children. Please keep praying. It is not over yet and everyone involved needs wisdom and decrement . Thanks again for praying and continuing to pray. Shoshanna" www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=375725341550&id=98287219406
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Post by francescateresa on Mar 18, 2010 19:35:03 GMT -5
about the interview being canceled... Maybe enough people who view Pearl as an abusive monster sent email similar to mine: I am appalled that CBS would stoop so low as to give this child abuse advocating monster a moment of national attention. I am not the only person to suspect that he is reveling in the media storm surrounding the attachment of his name to the death of Lydia Statz, among other deaths.
However, I hope that his interviewer tomorrow will be well educated on the abusive child training techniques espoused by him, his family, the No Grater Joy Ministries, and their affiliated (national and international) missionary partners.
Please have a staff member read the following blog entry and message boards for a brief background on Michael Pearl. He or she can then prepare a synopsis for the interviewer.
nolongerquivering.com/2010/03/03/no-laughing-matter-michael-pearls-callous-response-to-critics/
nolongerquivering.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=pearl&action=display&thread=765 I am speculating, but maybe CBS thought that this Pearl interview would open a large can of worms...
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maicde
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Post by maicde on Mar 19, 2010 1:50:00 GMT -5
the other side's opinion: www.walkinintheway.wordpress.com and no i don't have a quiverful, unless you consider 3 with her tubes tied a quiverful...I am not a repressed, head covered, skirt only woman...i am just a homeschool mom who has learned alot from the Pearls. do i agree with everything they say?? no, but they do not deserve such harsh treatment, and no they do not teach whipping your children to death. this is just one person's opinion if you are willing to see the other side and opposing comments spoken nicely are welcome Nope, I am NOT willing to "see the other side." The only "side" I'd like to see is Michael and Debi Pearl's "backside" in order to give them multiple doses of their own medicine. Yeah, you're right, "they don't deserve such harsh treatment (the media attention), they deserve MUCH WORSE!!! Both of these bonafied abusers should be in prison where they will get "disciplined" over and over again by their fellow prison mates. I'll even throw in a few of their child discipline books for good measure. See how merciful, I am. Sign me a mom of 7 who has had enough of fundies disguised as "nice people." They are NOT nice, unless you are towing their line. Trust me, I know. I used to post on large family boards for years until they got run over and taken over by Christian fundamentalist looney-toones. I learned all about "being nice". I learned all about getting chewed a new one and then having the "nice, holier-than-thou" fundie sign off with "God Bless You" or "Blessings." Hypocrites of the worst kind. Nope, I will NOT rest until this Pearl scum gets scrubbed clean from the a*s of humanity. Oh, how they were wrong: revenge IS so sweet!
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maicde
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Post by maicde on Mar 19, 2010 2:18:55 GMT -5
out of the thousands who have read and benefited from the Pearl's ministry, I hardly think that 2 tragedies where people supposedly were "followers" of their ideas is proof of anything. There's proof alright; proof that DeNial ain't just another river in Egypt. I feel very sorry for you, but not sorry enough to let this travesty go unchecked. The smart thing to do is to get all the people who were beat/whipped/tortured into submission to file a class action law suit and have all of Michael and Debi Pearl's assets go down the drain. Yeah, you want to affect change? Hit them where it counts: their pocketbooks. All of their assets are blood money that was built on the backsides (literally), minds, broken hearts and spirits of the young and defenseless. Disgusting and repugnant whack-a-doodles.
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