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Post by janedoe on Apr 21, 2010 15:14:39 GMT -5
Yeah, the jump from babies to EUTHANASIA OF THE ELDERLY (by, what, offering health care to younger people also?) would be funny if it weren't so influential. Off subject a bit here though it's relevant to patriarchy, that actually sad to say isn't a irrational fear...as we speak there are Numerous elderly who will be facing literal death due to the new health care and it is a form of Eugenics, social engineering and not just Elderly but those with Disabilities, thing is though, the majority of elderly and those who are caretakers of children with disabilities, WOMEN. So, yea...kind of bites in the ass, it's all joke when one is young but when a Woman is 70 and in that position, not so damn funny then...the abuses to Women in health care are bad enough--without Further exploitation. Anyway, as for the Duggars, the whole 19? kids for one woman is just Ridiculous, for starters, in my opinion and many are right, it's NOT that the children [and I don't watch the show but my daughter does and she says that neither Michelle or the girls look happy and that something is 'off' about the picture, like it's staged, my daughter, 14 years old and can see it] do chores, but that the chores are one, rigid gender roles and two, it's more than chores, it's girls being forced to be prime caregivers, etc. The Problem though, like with many other Issues, in attacking these abuses with any kind of policy, is that you do get sadly young people, usually girls who are in homes with just ONE child, forced to be Primary Caregivers [and this goes into the whole Health care thing], of parents, usually Low Income Single Parent Mothers, who get ill, who get disabled/have disease and Then, due to the Lack of Resources and Assistance for these families, the CPS comes in, takes the kid/ then returns, still leaving the family in dire situation and the Youth as primary caregiver [though Ironically many foster families do the same thing to kids but for them it's fine, double standard, go figure], but anyway, there are Thousands of young Women, who yes, in this nation, ARE PRIMARY CAREGIVERS OF PARENTS, WHO ARE MOSTLY WOMEN, SINGLE PARENTS, NOT QF WITH 20 + KIDS, because there is not the resources or the VILLAGE thanks to the whole corporatist Nuclear family model/patriarchy [the secular patriarchy-misogyny] who go to School then care for any younger kids [ave 3 in family] and then the Mother who is ill, it's in a lot of HIV families and families with mothers who have Epilepsy [severe] and MS, etc., ELLE did a good article on this a couple of years ago, and these Mothers, are demonized and Criminalized for being Sick...rather than society offering help to her OR to the Teen girls and the boys [there are boy caretakers too] in these families, then you add a screwed up health care that CUTS care even More so from disability, elderly, you're going to wind up with Far more young women caretakers... SO, yea, kind of goes around in a circle, what confronts the injustices of religious patriarchy often doesn't see the similar or worse, in secular patriarchy, and those who support the patriarchal on religious side may actually have Valid points in their criticisms of the secular, and vice versa, but all in all, it's the WOMEN, who get SCREWED, why the focus must be the Women, and how economic and social policies effect women, Rather than the harms to some women being a 'token' card for another agenda, which really has nothing to do with Women, but more to do with ridding of religion OR those who use Women as a token card [like the fundies do] for another agenda, which really has nothing to do with children's rights to life or family values but more to do with establishing a Theocracy/Racist one at that. Both the same damn bullshit, Meanwhile, you got young Women as Caretakers [forced to due to lack of assistance To these families, Single Parent Women--so much for feminism's loyalty to them] of Mothers and Grandparents/or maybe Daycare for children because our Daycare SUCKS in this nation..... and young Women as Caretakers of siblings in community/cults that coerce by psychological indoctrination [WITH THE SUPPORT MIND YOU OF SECULAR MEDIA, IT'S NOT JUST QF FAMILIES THE MEDIA CLEVERLY SHOWS AS THE 'OH SO AMERICAN PIE GOAL' BUT LET'S NOT FORGET THE WHOLE 'OH 8 KIDS FERTILITY MIRACLES, SEE WHAT 'SCIENCE' CAN DO AND OH THE OPRAH LET'S GIVE THE DIAPERS/CARS/WASHING MACHINES TO THE MOTHER WHO JUST GAVE BIRTH TO 7 KIDS AT ONCE' meanwhile, we got Mothers with ONE kid, in Food bank lines and with NO help... WOMEN ARE THE ONES GETTING SCREWED HERE, so to me, to Hell with the whole patriarchal capitalist nationalist religious agendas and TO HELL with the secular engineers who want to play GOD with reproduction and de gender and all their misogynist bullshit because I look out the window and I see Women hurting all over the place, and more government policies, that are Screwing them over, so yes, it IS euthanasia, it IS eugenics, it IS racism, it IS misogyny, and it IS screwed up. And women who promised to work for change, are Selling us out in D.C. as we speak...and our Media, glowingly showing T & A as the 'key' to happiness to millions of young girls/or sleeping around at the age of 12 [and if you get pregnant--abortion or tough, well, yea, if YOU can afford THAT]--and the Therapy after/more dicking over women with LIES while men can fuck and play and not pay, or glowingly showing either the QF mother or the Yuppie Mother with the 19 kids by Vision or the 8 kids, mini van and nice home [that Most working class can't afford or Dream of] who looks like she never had a kid--hey great for those Advertisers though a health care plan that cut women at the knees but oh enjoy the Viagra and Cialis (sic) old MEN, and that young girl [over Thousands] will do a full day of school, take care of her one sibling, her mother who has MS or AIDS, with NO help, and no where to Turn for help because if she does she'll be taken to foster and her mother isn't abusive, just Sick and Poor. Ironic isn't it? Downright infuriating is what it is, when WOMEN, become Central, and not religion or anti-religion we Might get somewhere. Jane
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Post by janedoe on Apr 21, 2010 15:49:18 GMT -5
Well I wanted to post some links here to stories on Teen Caregivers [due to poverty/lack of services and the cuts in health care/limits on WHAT can be treated now that will plunge even MORE low income working class Teen girls or younger and women into care-taking roles], only ONE science digest [with CPS, covered this in 2005, that's After they remove the girls however, rip the family apart, sad], but I did find this, and this seems to be more the thing among Secular, and he does go into more young women being forced into Care taking roles NOT for religious but for the Double Burden, just like in former Soviet nations/and in parts of Europe today, the ugly truths we Don't hear about Dr. Hinshaw’s fascinating and groundbreaking book shows concerned parents how to listen, learn, and help girls unlock the shackles of the Triple Bind. The Triple Bind discusses many key topics, including
• Today’s trap: how internal conflict can turn self-expression into self-destruction • Nature versus nurture: genes, hormones, and the role of biology in confronting the Triple Bind • Life in the pressure cooker: overscheduled, overtaxed lives, and how the pressure to excel at everything sets girls up for crisis • When virtue is its own punishment: how traditionally feminine qualities like empathy, self-awareness, and verbal ability can put girls at risk for anxiety, depression, and other disorders • Getting all Pussycat Dolled up: the oversexualization of little girls, preteens, and teenagers • The wired child: how cyberculture exacerbates the Triple Bind • Girls who hit: the reasons girls are channeling pressure into violence • The plight of normal girls: hidden aspects of the Triple Bind crisis that don’t show up in statistics
Combining moving personal stories about girls and their families with extensive research into genetic risk, vulnerability, and cultural influence, Dr. Hinshaw provides strategies and tools for parents who want to empower their daughters to deal in healthy way Welcome to the New Patriarchy, the book is on Amazon, www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345503996?ie=UTF8&tag=glosover0d-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0345503996#reader_0345503996www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345503996?ie=UTF8&tag=glosover0d-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0345503996and his research, SUICIDE RATES ARE INCREASING AMONG TEEN GIRLS, due to Triple Burden, on Girls, young Women, this isn't QF, this is Everywhere, though the QF can't be Helping, these Unrealistic Standards or the 8 child infertility yuppie model either. the UK actually Has done a story on it, America seems to HIDE this ugly reality, like sweeping other povertyd-piss poor resource/low wages issues under the rug, but here you go, www.jrf.org.uk/media-centre/children-caring-sick-and-disabled-parents-%E2%80%98risk-lasting-problems-adults%E2%80%99Now with more cuts in Health Care/limited what is treated for elderly and disabled, you can BET, more women, teen women, are going to be NOW carrying the burdens, and more Women will be, like in Europe, forced to work part time to take on care of elderly parents [due to cuts in what is treated] leaving MORE women falling into Poverty, Triple Burden here we come...brace yourselves, 1984 is only beginning.. [my elderly friend with diabetes and she's a strong woman, raised 6 kids on her own in the day it Wasn't done/in her day women couldn't Get divorced, she's from Nebraska, now she will be plunged into Worse poverty, if she can even Get care, guess who will shoulder the burden? Her granddaughter...who Already, at the age of 10, was assisting her father with mental disability....so, while I don't concur nor prefer the whole huge family of the QF, there IS something to be said, about Community, because Women don't fair any better, in Nuclear communities either, that are male corporate -materialist driven, and now our Younger Women, are feeling it more and more--meanwhile, we get clotheslines of 7 year old's looking like Fredericks of Hollywood at stores or the full face veil girls at 5 walking around, good grief..does it Ever end? ? Jane Jane
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Post by grandmalou on Apr 21, 2010 16:47:43 GMT -5
Holy Cow! What a post, Kidly! And what comments to it! Like a bright light on a very glossed over subject, this is. I, for one, am "up to here" with "Duggars as gods". Surely they are blessed with income...media attention...help from almost any direction you can think of. So...why wouldn't they want to keep on having more babies for their daughters to raise??? Yeah. Ironically yesterday I watched Oprah Winfrey, who had Nadya Suleman (OctoMom) on her program. Readily admitting that she is totally exhausted, at her wit's end trying to get some rest, and give each little person some individual one-on-one time. At one point in her interview, video-taped, she was changing one baby's diaper while another baby was being jumped on by an older little girl who had climbed into the playpen. The poor little one was screaming in pain while Nadya was screaming at the older one to "STOP!" And she has three nannies! They don't always show up, as stuff happens in the BEST of circumstances. I remember feeling horrible when I had to leave Sandy watching Vyckie when working the evening shift...OMG! They were 13 and 11. And Vyckie had low blood sugar. Which left Sandy of necessity having to call me at work sometimes in a panic when Vyckie would be almost unconcious. What a terrible responsibility to foist on a young girl! But we had to eat. That was back in the day when there was NO ADC, WIC, whatever...work or starve. Or become a pole dancer...
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Post by arietty on Apr 21, 2010 18:07:14 GMT -5
I'm still not sure that the problem is with the siblings caring for each other. My older kids LOVE to do things for their pre-school siblings. Because they love them and the little kids are so much fun. Some days I think they just do so many things for them, and I'm really grateful (and I tell them so). But.. here is what they do NOT do: Bath them every day or so. Do pyjamas, teeth and bed every night. Cook their meals every night. Teach them how to read, do math and supervise their education every single day. Drop whatever they are doing every single time a younger child needs them, because they are responsible for that child's needs. Clean the house every day and teach a younger child to clean it as they do so. Take over full care of a baby from 6 months onwards, feeding them at night, changing them, attending to their needs. THAT is the Duggar girls responsibilities. They each have a younger sibling they do all this for EVERY DAY. This is NOT helping out. This being a full time au paire or nanny for a child because your family expects it of you, a position that would pay well in another setting. So please, can we stop talking about "helping out". My kids help out with their younger siblings out of love and fun and my expectations.. and they know full well that if they want to go off to a friend's house that day no one will even blink. They have choices and their helping out with their siblings is not on a chart on the fridge, it's in the organic every day give and take of life. There is no comparison.
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Post by arietty on Apr 21, 2010 18:21:59 GMT -5
This brought me to tears and I am still crying as I try to type. Because you are so right ~ and while my heart certainly goes out to the Duggar girls, I can't help but think about all the families who live under the radar and who don't get to enjoy the "blessings" that come national television, with living in a large, comfortable, debt free home, the notoriety. Not of course that these are always to be sought, but these things *do* make life easier in some ways (although I can imagine the pressure to keep up appearances for your WITNESS on camera is DEVASTATING). But for every precious Duggar daughter, there are hundreds, if not thousands, who do all of this without help. Without their luxury lifestyle ~ and it is a Quiverfull version of a luxury lifestyle. Thanks for writing this. YES. I was on a big family private forum some years ago and the poverty was devastating. People were quite honest about their problems and how hard life was. Sometimes a husband would lose is (already low wage) job and the despair was terrible. The Duggar's at least don't have the fear of not eating, of not being able to pay the rent hanging over their heads.. I am sure the pressure on the children in those families is magnified. Sometimes the mom had to go get a job just so they could eat.. and then the older daughters really do need to do everything. A lot of people are trapped and made poorer by this ideology. It's just MATH. You need more money and a bigger house to have a huge family and live in any kind of reasonable way. But you are more afraid of going against God than you are of your family imploding under the strain. Then when you get an abusive husband, or one that doesn't work ("God is calling me to higher things", read that before, lol) and it's a hand to mouth existence.
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Post by peaceofchange on Apr 21, 2010 22:23:02 GMT -5
Just a couple of thoughts....
I knew a QF family who said that they didn't have pets because they have children. SO, that is a little insight into the thinking. The children were not allowed to have pets, because there were too many children to take care of. So there way of learning responsibility would be with human developement.
Also, I agree that it is not detrimental to a child/teenager to "help", but it should be just that...help. Certain chores or something, but not the primary care giver. As a parent, I want to take care of my child. I want to know her. I want to remember her first words and her first steps. I want to see all the little cute and funny things that she does that endear her to me, her mom...and when she is all grown I want to embarrass her at every birthday by telling her about all her cute antics as a child. I would rather hire and housekeeper, laundress, cook, landscaper...whatever it took, to keep those memories for myself. There is a grave disservice to the "sibling turned nanny" but my heart also aches for the mother who won't remember because someone else was raising her child. They are missing so much.
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Post by doggie on Apr 21, 2010 22:44:04 GMT -5
I think they are just using the duggers to promote and legitimize their own causes. the duggers are good at being used.
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Post by sisof9 on Apr 22, 2010 0:04:05 GMT -5
i'll be pretty unpopular with this, and i probably won't stick around and defend it, so please feel free to ignore but... i LOVE the Duggars!!! Yeah, they have issues like anyone else, and I do think they, along with most families of many kids, do rely on their kids too much. I DO agree that when Michelle and JimBob chose to allow God to plan their family THEY were choosing to raise them not delegate to someone else. HOWEVER... I think moooost of the time what they do is just fine. I don't think it's wrong to assign specific chores to specific people or even "it is always so and so's job to get this child dressed, bathed, etc."... I have seen flexibility in them - if for some reason Jana is not home someone else bathes her buddy - it's not like that child is left to rot. And, obviously the TV show is verrrry limited, but moooost of what i've seen on the show I am fine with. There are a few times when I am like "hooold it!", but most of the time I think they do a really good job. I think that JB and Michelle ARE in over their heads and probably got to a place where they relied on the girls so much and now wouldnt know how to NOT rely on them so much, but overall I think the girls really do enjoy it... and to be honest - their lives aren't that bad. I believe if they wanted to go to college their parents wouldnt stop them. I dunno if that made sense. I am exhausted. BTW - I don't think Michelle will leave Josie home, and I also think she would be the first to admit that she could never do it without her girlies.
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Post by krwordgazer on Apr 22, 2010 0:49:04 GMT -5
I don't really watch the Duggars' show. If it's on in our area, I've never seen it, so I'm not really in a position to judge. But I will say this, Sisof9. I respectfully disagree that "letting God plan your family" is synonymous with what the Duggars are doing. Letting nature take its course is not "letting God plan," it's letting nature take its course. From what I understand, Michelle even stops breastfeeding when the infants are quite young, so that she will get pregnant again-- so she's manipulating nature to make herself pregnant more often even than she would naturally. My understanding of basic Christian doctrine is that it doesn't say everything that happens according to the course of nature is God's best plan. There's also a "curse" on the natural world. And there's also various manipulations of nature by humans, many of which are neither commanded nor forbidden by God, but are part of human freedom. The Duggars, too, are free to manipulate nature-- but when it hurts the children they already have, they should stop having more. Love is the greatest commandment. I'm working on a biblical refutation of the "no birth control" docrtine, to be published on the NLQ blog when it's done. You are welcome to disagree with it, but I hope you'll give it consideration.
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Post by janedoe on Apr 22, 2010 0:51:21 GMT -5
Also, I agree that it is not detrimental to a child/teenager to "help", but it should be just that...help. Certain chores or something, but not the primary care giver. As a parent, I want to take care of my child. I want to know her. I want to remember her first words and her first steps. I want to see all the little cute and funny things that she does that endear her to me, her mom...and when she is all grown I want to embarrass her at every birthday by telling her about all her cute antics as a child. I would rather hire and housekeeper, laundress, cook, landscaper...whatever it took, to keep those memories for myself. There is a grave disservice to the "sibling turned nanny" but my heart also aches for the mother who won't remember because someone else was raising her child. They are missing so much.
Thank you, because you have Just HIT on the ROOT OF THE REAL PROBLEM HERE THAT HAS BEEN THE DOWNFALL OF THOUSANDS OF WOMEN IN THIS NATION..and it's NOT the belief in God, or religion, but the LIE and the MYTH [since industrial times] that with GOD and doing it GOD's Calvinist-Patriarchal Way/nuclear male Andro-centric with woman turned into the Pedophile fantasy CHILD raising CHILDREN that GOD will bless them and they will PROSPER and if SHE wants to work--SHE can then HIRE the SERVANTS... WHITE PRIVILEGE WRAPPED UP IN GOD AND PROSPERITY-PIE LIE 101... and it is the ROOT, of why So many, women are either Stuck in abusive marriages with kids or IF they leave and they do NOT have husbands with six figure incomes they wind up in FAR WORSE POVERTY WITH KIDS or SHE will REMARRY to ESCAPE POVERTY INTO A WORSE ABUSIVE SITU OR WILL SEE 'COMMUNITY' SUCH AS THE QF AND THEN SHE'LL JOIN BECAUSE SOCIETY WITH IT'S FOLLOWING THE 'MYTH-LIE' did little for her except yes, Offer her the Pole Dancing.! The ONE issue that both the Right Wing and the Left Wing do NOT like to take out and strip the B.S. and the REALITY of MILLIONS OF WOMEN, IN THE WORLD, AND THE THOUSANDS OF SINGLE PARENT-OR WIDOWED OR DIVORCED USED TO BE SAHM WHO ARE NOW 40 IN THE JOB MARKET WHO ARE ON OUR STREETS TODAY, in our Projects, who are Without help, Without food, many without Shelter and Many who are winding up DEAD because if you kill a Homeless Woman [or a prostitute] who knows, She's invisible and the Media/police networks don't even bother to put it in the Paper--and her burial plot, is unmarked as JANE DOE. [why I chose that pen name, to represent the Thousands of them in THIS RICH, SUPER POWER NATION, of the GOD blesses Prosperity if you Just do it the Patriarchal Protestant Way.] But the Reality is, it Doesn't work out that way.....for thousands of women. AND those, btw, who CAN afford to hire Nannies, Nannies mind you who are Often from other nations, many who are TRAFFICKED, AS SLAVES, raped, not paid overtime, abused, no days off, etc, FACT.FACT, FACT are of the Upper to Upper Middle Classes, another little Ugly Reality not shown much, unless it's to take down a media figure or something. This is where CLASS really does hit Home, and it WILL be an ISSUE for these Women who do Leave the QF and other similar communities [and they should be told the Realistic Truth, not the experience of a twenty something with no kids in college who if in a bind calls up MOM for support, etc], because not only is the economy getting Worse with outsourcing and most jobs being SERVICE SECTOR--TRY SEEING HOW MANY CORPORATE JOBS YOU GET WITH DAYCARE NEEDS FOR THREE OR FOUR OR MORE CHILDREN?, and IF they do NOT have the support systems out there--WITH the very real possibility that they will have to also take care of Their parents with the changes to come, they will find themselves in Worse situations, or many will return. And can we Blame them? And pole dancing really isn't an option for older women with 8 kids, at least not the kind that doesn't require one to do a Snuff film...if you Get my drift, IF women with ONE kid aren't making it WITH a high school education then how in the World is a woman with 12 kids going to do it? And THESE are the ISSUES that women will find that sure, every now and then MS or some political gender studies journal will do a brief on the Poverty Industry, especially at Voting time [when they Aren't calling the Female candidate a Bitch that is out of the way or talking about how they would take her behind the Barn ] but These briefs/essays don't Pay the Bills or the HeadStart [that is full up most places] or the Groceries or the Rents that are more than 60% of most working class Income per month...not a lot of Solace there to the mother who's trying to Stay alive and keep her kids fed. And THAT is women with one or two kids...the Majority of women, the REAL LIFE WORLD, not Corporate Lawyers from Ivy League Schools who can Afford the Nannies OR, the real clincher here [double irony] the professional Woman who postponed having children so she could Have that career only to find that NOW she needs help due to infertility and then it's off to the fertility doctors and Boom, she has Four kids at Once, or MORE, but see she already had the six figure income with the car and not only that, Support, because why That's a scientific Miracle!, that and she's most likely to be WHITE and UPPER TO UPPER MIDDLE CLASS INCOME. [and most likely started OUT that way--how she could AFFORD to go to the college withOUT having to get saddled with Sallie Mae and in Slavery to Uncle Sam while working at Walmart and forget dating/sex much less marriage, she's paying those loans until she Dies, FACT, the other 'MYTH' that we don't hear about] In Other words it's not just Patriarchy but Class, hate to sound like a radical leftist here [and economic I am/but more of the pro-communal from grass roots, not the gov as parent/with a feudalism gun type] but the REALITY for so many women is just that, and Why marriage and patriarchy, putting up with abuse, IS SADLY, I hate to say it, that nasty little pill that thousands of women have to weigh on the scale every month, do I leave or do I stay....which is Worse? And Don't think it's just QF or Religious women, there are Professional College Educated women who wind up in the same boat--he hides the assets or cons her out of money or invests and then her savings is gone, etc., happens All the time, dd and unless you're going to force policies of no children whatsoever, [we could, but then learn to deal with a far more patriarchal culture when labor shortages are so dire that we become migrant labor dependent, insourcing not outsourcing, Russia is IN this situ right now], this is the Thorn in the Flesh for Women, the one that the religious perpetuate yet the paradox there is that those family structures, though not utopic, DO offer some protection for women, and on the Other hand, the secularists [esp the anti-religious] are real good at analysis of the economic dependence of women with children/marriage from that angle but their short sightedness on the Reality of what to do ONCE a woman is taking care of those kids on her own OR worse, those misogynists [and they are in Every sector of society and belief system] because policies that are pro-woman and pro-child that AREN'T about just abortion, such as CHILD SUPPORT, well, now they just can't Have those....why then that effects ALL MEN, not just those Bible thumping or d rocking chair Moonshine boys of the South, and then the boys club they gots to stick together, don't want those women getting to Uppity. And this is really where Patriarchy, the Brutal TRUTH of it, slaps women right in the gut, is when SHE is in a situation where she is faced with the ugliness of survival without any community or protections of marriage/family and especially if she has kids OR SHE has been raped and has to deal with the Still Ugly Reality that yes Virginia they Still ostracize women rape victims and men Still do less time and no it Don't matter how nice or sweet or how willing you are to prove your sexual empowerment, virgin or whore, that is where All women are the same....and see the TRUTH in that, in a Misogynist Rape Culture Patriarchal Society [religious/secular they all yell go, go the same damn way and then laugh about it in the locker rooms or at the foot ball games or while watching the porn flick], OR when she is widowed or not, elderly, kid's are struggling just to feed their families and she's not only invisible but finds that even the Churches, don't even know her name, and she's no value to the Secular because she can't get a man to get a hard on anymore or is no good labor wise, TRUTH, brutal, but There it is.... [and it is why I and many of us vocal in the face Feminists won't ever shut up because the Travesty is, Women still today are told So many damn lies by Both the God will take care of you myth and the if you just be a lesbian or just have no kids or marry and have only two and get that education and why you'll be just fine, especially the B.S. they tell younger women] Maybe you will, but the Odds are, you'll wind up like Thousands and Thousands of women who are asking through the disillusionment, where did this all go wrong? This wasn't how it was Supposed to be... Many communities of women who have had to Deal with the Realities that many White women have not, have formed sisterhood, I'm talking about the African American Women, who have formed alliances and micro banking and small businesses and many of Those women are thriving, because due to their not having the Privilege [and many of the strongest Feminist African American women btw are CHRISTIAN] because they saw through the B.S. about White Protestant God will bless Myth and Patriarchal bull AND the lies of the Secular traitors, Long Long ago, those women know how it is [though there are huge problems now due to the whole it's cool to be a ho culture, in the younger generation and in inner cities where opportunities have not been there, etc., and the male leaders like many white patriarchs have sold the people out--men are pigs no matter What ethnicity or culture, well most of them], but that's beside the point...the Problem and I'm going to be really blunt here, white women, especially white women dealing with Patriarchy within Religion, have Still got this myth belief that privilege has afforded them, and now many are finding out, it's NOT that way in the Real World...I"m talking about Women who have lived that privileged but God will protect us MYTH, here... and I guarantee you more of these women ARE going to find out--but here's where it is sad, many are going to find, they Won't get the solidarity, among women of color, or women who are of the lower income classes, because for YEARS, for YEARS, those women have Pleaded, have Stated, we are NOT welfare queens, we are NOT teen moms only, we are NOT just loose and amoral... and where were So many privileged women? Voting for the very policies that cut Women at the knees, because they were told from Generation to Generation, if you Just obey your husband and GOD and work and save you'll Never wind up, like THOSE women..... and now the MYTH is going to hell in a hand basket and many women are finding themselves in the same boat with the rest of us...who've been paddling or well, swimming in the flood waters for years, and so many of us who've been swimming for years kind of understand why many women Would yes, go for the whole QF life or the rural commune, as well we understand and Fear for many of them, who are Leaving the Abuses, these ultra-patriarchal beliefs attribute too, knowing all too well, sad to say, that the MYTHS that have been Sold to women for Decades, are just that, MYTHS, some can escape them and do alright, but for most, who working class are barely making it in a Two parent household, much less one, are straggling and many aren't even doing That anymore...and yet, every now and then, you'll hear or see those who seemed untouched by the Reality of the world, and it's those, who are in the Mainstream, both Religious and Secular, who are loading up women with so much B.S. that it's not even funny, and those of us, out here, just hope, that IF she leaves, [and so many ARE primary Caregivers, young women, single mothers, grandmothers even, kids, kids who have to WORK to EAT in THIS nation AND GUESS WHAT, THEY DON'T HAVE A CHOICE..IT'S NOT ABOUT CHOICE, IT'S ABOUT SURVIVAL, they don't Have the luxury or even the possibility of EVER hiring a nanny, hell they can't afford Daycare, many leave kids home with Siblings so they CAN WORK...not so they can have material things but so they can have more than A CARDBOARD BOX TO LIVE IN...], but IF she leaves, that she at Least, has a husband who can pay a good child support or a family that will take her in... because if she don't, she's in for a Hell of a time...and the Saddest thing is, she'll be wondering, Why God, I did All the right things, Why am I so poor or Why am I in this shelter, but it's NOT GOD, it never was, it was the LIE, the LIE that has drove so many in this nation to support policies, in the name of God, that has done MORE to destroy women and to protect the Worst kinds of patriarchy... and that's, the most tragic thing of all. That, and that so many women, Still believe those Myths. Go figure... IN solidarity, Jane
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torgo
New Member
Posts: 7
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Post by torgo on Apr 22, 2010 1:34:33 GMT -5
that [euthanasia] actually sad to say isn't a irrational fear...as we speak there are Numerous elderly who will be facing literal death due to the new health care and it is a form of Eugenics, social engineering and not just Elderly but those with Disabilities Not to hijack an otherwise excellent thread, but... what? Please explain how the watered-down healthcare bill, which serves in part to stop insurance companies from denying coverage to people with congenital disabilities (because they have a "preexisting condition"), is in any way a harbinger of eugenics or euthanasia? And you do realize that many elderly Americans (and people with disabilities of all ages) already get government-subsidized healthcare through Medicaid, right? As for Michelle Duggar, I find it interesting to see how the self-serving bean-counters at VF are trying to legitimize the QF philosophy by availing themselves of a back door into the mainstream media. No doubt this "mothering award" is merely a calculated move designed to attract at least some of the Duggars' viewers. And $85 a ticket? I presume, since VF is supposedly a non-profit organization, that the net profit for this event will be used to feed starving folks in Haiti (as opposed to merely funding VF's shiny new media outlet in that country). Or maybe the money will go towards helping less fortunate QF families. Or it could be donated to a children's hospital. (Yeah, I'll be holding my breath.) As an aside, I've never before seen a non-profit sell so much so often so effectively. If I didn't know any better, I'd "mistake" VF for a business venture devoted entirely to the bottom line.
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Post by janedoe on Apr 22, 2010 2:12:13 GMT -5
BTW before I reply, my last post, when discussing class and race, I am 'generally' speaking from a Class perspective, from looking at policies and the influences, that are widely held by race-in religious beliefs, have negatively impacted women, and I take those views [though yes they are generalizations, mainstream, not true for every individual or community in an ethnic or religious group, etc.] from years of reading/working with Groups who are African American Women and Latina Women and THEY say these things, so, where white privilege and the views or perpetuated religious patriarchal views are concerned. I do see a huge difference between, religiously speaking, the communities of white women and African American women when it comes to seeing through the myths of if you work hard/do the patriarchal thing you won't wind up in such and such, NOT to say that All women in those communities think this way but the general 'ideology' or belief in most churches, tends to be this way. Please explain how the watered-down healthcare bill, which serves in part to stop insurance companies from denying coverage to people with congenital disabilities (because they have a "preexisting condition"), is in any way a harbinger of eugenics or euthanasia?
And you do realize that many elderly Americans (and people with disabilities of all ages) already get government-subsidized healthcare through Medicaid, right?
The health care bill, has limits as to What can be treated, like many HMOs already around [don't even get me started on the ludicrous co pays of those and deductibles] and for the Age Yes there are now more limits, already we are hearing of elderly who have diabetes, who will now have to go without certain treatments, on this new health care... and that IS a form of euthenasia, which basically is, if one isn't a productive labor citizen then they should be weeded out, so to speak, which, without getting into a lengthy debate on this here, I find it ironic, that the Majority of elderly [because statistic women outlive men] are Women. As for medicaid now for people with disabilities, say what? Where do you get THAT misinformation from? And it IS misinformation, actually it's the usual Right wing neo-conservative belief, and let me assure you, it's pure myth. One, it's Extremely difficult to Get disability, and only then for certain disabilities and that is for elderly, depending on income, and even with that, there are limits to treatments, medicines, etc., it's better than nothing sure, but this belief that all elderly can just get Medicaid is false, but more so, for non-elderly to get Medicaid, LOL, GOOD LUCK. That is, along with the whole immigrants get all these programs LIE, is just that, a myth and it is near impossible for young/adults to get disability, especially women and women with kids, not only that, then they have to Constantly re-apply, and any income like, ridiculous increases that wouldn't pay for Diapers, can cut disability. That is FACT, that and one has to be in Dire and I do mean DIRE poverty, to get disability in many states. [I do believe it varies from state to state, the one I'm in, you're better off doing drug sales, seriously, sarcastic yes but true, NOT advocating that BUT in all reality, that is why many women do wind up in prison, FACT, economic crimes, the myth that there is just all this help out there, when the reality is, NO, there isn't, and it's NOT easy to get help even if direly 'deserving of it IF you want to take it from a conservative view' and often impossible, and That includes disabiity for children, lets say those with autism, etc. For single women, this is enough to break them, we see it All the TIME, in the shelters here, that and adults who, believe it or not, Worked, were middle class, get MS or some disabling disease and BY the time they DO get the Yes from disability, they've lost Everything and are on the streets. And you'd be surprised at just how many Working people are on the streets...or Women who are forced to work Part time, or at nights, to take care of yes, Disabled child, because disability isn't like this windfall, these women aren't making it, Period. IF not for food banks many of them would starve and the scary thing is, more people are being turned Away from food banks because they can't keep up with the Demand, it's getting bad out there. We got Tent cities popping up, a huge one further south, and yes, many Should be on disability. And here's where the SAHM really gets Screwed, Especially if she's elderly, unless the husband makes a good income, IF he's working class, she only gets a small percentage of SS Depending on how old he was when he dies, I have seen young [well mid 30-40] year old women wind up on welfare, who were SAHM because SS is simply not Enough to live on...no way, if she has kids she's doubly screwed. Unless they have a house paid off [good luck with that where I live], rent alone, will eat that up. IF she is disabled, she MIGHT be able to get disability, I wouldn't count on it, hardly, same goes for a child...it's Very hard, to get it, it's not like you just walk in there and apply and they go, oh sure, here ya go...it Don't work like that, it's at Least, at Least, a four time rejection application/going to doctor after doctor process and red tape, that Isn't including having to do this Over and Over to keep it and then deal with the cuts, and then there is still co-pays and THEN, even IF, you get Medicaid, good luck finding doctors [and dentists, LOL, that's even funnier] who'll Take it... then it's clinics, well, then if clinics then it's we don't do such and such here, sometimes, the running joke here, is you're better off doing your OWN medicine, herbals or well, booze...or 4-20 for the pain, and you'd be surprised at how many ARE doing just that, Elderly that is, yea, medicaid and disability? ? Yea, it's like the whole lie about TANF and well used to be AFDC, oh sure, it's like you just get All these food stamps and All this cash [I've heard the stories, been in this advocacy for Years], yea Right, LOL, if the public had Any idea, well, many are finding out now aren't they? The saddest thing really is to see Women, who have believed [and I was, at one time, one of them] all the lies and myths, who find themselves, for reasons OUT of their control, in the situations where they Need help, only to find, hey! It's not like I thought it was, and then to see their anger, the first thing they say, usually, what ya mean I can't get this [and then often the but immigrants get this which is another lie-myth] and then after a while, after the SHOCK settles down, they just have this numb I don't believe it look on their face...then it's the, by golly I deserve more than this why I've paid into the system and what are my taxes for and a complete turn around, and then to see their hurt when they realize, that the world passes them by and they have the child and they may, may get that disability but they can't work or they lose it so now they got to figure out how to work under the Table... people just don't have a clue really unless they've been there, so NO, there isn't disability that is easy to get, or even possible for MANY DISABILITIES, you basically have to be on a damn stretcher and that ain't no lie, now there ARE some people who Do get it [and you'd be surprised at how many of them are MEN while women are hooking with the losers to just get food] disability and well the system works for them, that I can't tell you why that is, it does happen, but it's NOT the women or the immigrants, [there are exceptions to this] but usually, it's not, and for those women/mothers who have to Live and fight on these programs day in and day out, it is a FIGHT and I do mean a FIGHT and for the elderly, hell they wind up MORE sick, just go to your shelters [homeless] and Hang out for a while, or go to a disability office and hang out for a week or two, you'd be shocked, at what Really goes on out there. And yes, for the Poor and low income disabled and child, they Do die sooner...they sure as hell do. Jane
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Post by janedoe on Apr 22, 2010 2:51:45 GMT -5
[see above]
the losses with the health care/ and the gender aging that will Still apply, so yes, elderly women are going to still be negatively effected.
LOSSES:
At the broadest scale, the statement from the National Organization for Women (NOW) most succinctly articulates the basic losses in this round of health care reform:
The bill covers only 32 million of the 47 million uninsured in this country, does not contain a meaningful public option and provides no pathway to a single payer system like Medicare for all.
While these aspects of reform affect all people, they again also disproportionately affect women.
Other losses with disproportionate or specific implications for women include:
Continuation of age-rating
The bill continues to permit age-rating, the practice of imposing higher premiums on older people. " This practice has a disproportionate impact on women," notes the National Organization for Women, "whose incomes and savings are lower due to a lifetime of systematic wage discrimination."
Continuation of gender-rating
The bill also permits gender-rating to continue under some policies. "Some are under the mistaken impression that gender-rating has been prohibited," states NOW, "but that is only true in the individual and small-group markets."
Larger group plans (more than 100 employees) sold through the exchanges will be permitted to discriminate against women -- having an especially harmful impact in workplaces where women predominate.
NOW states: "We know why those gender- and age-rating provisions are in the bill: because insurers insisted on them, as they will generate billions of dollars in profits for the companies. Such discriminatory rating must be completely eliminated."
---------------------------
another thing, when you look at disability and insurance, and I think many do this, they ONLY look at that, well,
we got ours today, and we're dumping, it, it's gone from 370 a month to near 600, our deductible is already at 6,000 a year, our co pays, LOL, and well,
we don't use it, we simply can't afford it. But due to my husband's job, he works for a college, it's mandatory, so, by time we have that deducted, pay rent, electric and groceries, we broke...it's month to month, always has been. And now it will be worse,
so, now it's taking me or kids off, guess who's going off the insurance? I am.
But haven't used it since can't pay 6,000 anyway, and when my back was out, [deteriorating disk disease, nerve damage/permanent, that I got injured At work years ago], well I just didn't walk, I crawled, and sucked it up...that's how it is. If he had of died when it was really bad, well, I know how to sell flowers on the street corner, LOL ,
but, I can't imagine what women/elderly are going to do with Those rates, there's always homeopathic [and I do use that, but that's a funny market too, lot of scams out there]
but now if I get cancer, shoot, it's 4-20 and wait to die, I can't afford it and most women I know, can't, it's pay for the medical or rent/mortgage or today, car to live in...we don't even have a car--insurance here, with parking [to pay], LOL, and income I make--student loans, ROFL,
why neither of my daughters will attend college, their choice, that whole line of go to college [husband pays loans too] didn't work on them, gee I wonder why? :od But we got an old antique wood burning stove, time to get us, self sufficient, we do garden our vegies/short growing season though,
LOL I mean, hell we got people here sneaking chickens in their homes to have eggs, I mean, like Third World America, LOL, time to stock up on the sling shots,
and I can laugh about it but you see, I got that privilege of marriage [though it's no utopia, by no means] and I think, what the hell are Single mothers doing to make it? Well I KNOW what they are doing to make it, cuzz I done it, [how I got into this marriage]
and I didn't have no 20 kids!
People don't stop and think, ok so you got medicaid, ok well there's Still the rent/or car [though elderly or with kids, kind of tricky that one] which is more than half of income [and housing is really The number one obstacle] and then electric, phone [or pray, if you live in inner city, the pay phones aren't All bashed up and not working and you Don't need to call 911 anytime, been there done that], gas for heating, etc.,
take an elderly living on fixed income of 1000 a month, with co pays, yea, like OK, and that ramen diet real good for the ole preventive medicine there, d
those whose kids can't send money, are Hurting, many of them, and they are Women...especially Women, who were STAH OR working women who had kids to support with No or little child support,
and they die, as paupers, and I think, if it was MEN by majority who lived to be 70, you Bet, there would be Far more, vocalization against Any type of euthanasia leaning policies, etc....
women are fighting to get birth control on insurance/abortion, but men, have been getting Viagra, paid for,
I mean, it don't take a genius, to figure it out.
Jane
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Post by jemand on Apr 22, 2010 7:39:39 GMT -5
Jane, you are really monopolizing the conversation. It's kinda rude. do you think you could contain your points into one post please?
You are talking over everyone else by sheer volume, it isn't really very nice or conducive to sharing experiences. People won't read your "wall of text" so it's not very effective either.
Ome mense hanteer codes in die vertaling deur die heilige GIGO (codes in, codes uit) metode. Ek doen dit nie. Ek wil my vertalings te word kristal helder.
Die ouens
WAT die dinge wat ek vertaal is sakemense te lees
EN HULLE HET NIE DIE ntyd of die geneigdheid om te porie en dink eers oor 'n teks, kyk op woorde in' n Hele woordeboek nie,
hulle wil om te verstaan WAT HULLE DIE EERSTE keer vlugtig te lees deur dit. As hulle dit nie doen nie, die sê "damn die vertaler," nie "damn die outeur." DIE OUENS WQAT DIE goed lees sakemense Ek vertaal is, en hulle het nie die tyd of
die
geneigdheid OM TE PORIE EN dink
eers oor 'n teks, soek om woorde in 'n Hele woordeboek. Al hierdie besigheid van "kristal helder vertaling vir codes oorspronklike" KAN teorie' n bietjie in stryd met goeie vertaling, maar ek is nie oor 'n goeie vertaling teorie hier, ek praat oor' n lewe te verdien. LESERS VAN
besigheid vertalings verwag om te verstaan wat hulle lees, sonder moeite, en ek het 'n gesin te voed. Daarom het ek dit eenvoudig hou. PERFECT RAINAISE.
So ook al my RESEP VIR VERTAAL
teorie
kan wissel van tyd tot tyd, sluit dit altyd 'n goeie SKOOT!
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maicde
Junior Member
Posts: 69
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Post by maicde on Apr 22, 2010 8:07:41 GMT -5
Michelle Duggar is the leading cast member in the QF/Vision Forum/ATI and Company movie. Her children are the supporting cast members. They are actors playing their respective roles in a movie that has been written and produced by the Patriarchal word and it’s agenda. Let there be no mistake about that. There is a great amount of money to be made in promoting a way of life which purports to have all the answers to life’s messy and complicated questions and issues. The Duggars themselves are a product which markets the “ideals” of the patriarchal world, even though it isn’t so “ideal” for its adherants.
Who wouldn’t want to know the ingredients to a recipe that promises to deliver a happy family, kids who instantly obey their parents’ every instruction - with even smile on their face?! Women who are wanting to “crack the code” to a nirvana that fails to elude them are willing to spend $85 to have “tea time with Michelle Duggar.” The admission price of $85 is a small price to pay to finally find out the “insider secrets” that continue to elude them no matter how many books, workbooks, tapes and CD’s they buy. D*mn, so close, yet so far away!!!
So, Michelle Duggar’s “groupies” will go to see her and have tea time with her in which she will offer them the answers they’ve been so patiently waiting for. She will talk in her baby-like, soft voice, smile, and reassure them that they are on the right path. She will tell them to continue giving up their life to God, to continue to be submissive to their husbands, to practice “J-O-Y” in their home, to buy this or that “Managers of their Household/Home” books, be open to having as many children as the Lord is willing to give you, etc. This is what they’ve been waiting to hear and the reason they came, so all of this will resonate like heavenly music to them because it reassures them that they are indeed on the right path. With a bit more diligence, they are reassured that they too will finally be there - just like Michelle Duggar.
They will go home with hearts as light as butterflies energized by being around Michelle Duggar and the fact that they were able to leave their house and all the work and drudgery that goes along with living the patriarchal version/model of a “Godlly home” (which is code for children being slaves to the parents, the wife being the slave to her husband, and the whole kit and kaboodle being messed up from the core out). They will come home to children that have been fighting and bickering, tired and burned out caregivers/babysitters in the form of their daughters, lesson plans, dinner, laundry, and cleaning that haven’t quite been completed yet. BOOM! - the illusion that Michelle Duggar painted at tea time begins to shatter!!!
These women will continue to boomerang from one event to another, one book, CD, tape, etc., to another, in a never-ending, futile attempt to find out why all of this isn’t working for them like it does for Michelle Duggar, or this person or that person. It will continue the endless cycle of self-blame, self-flaggelation, not being good enough, diligent enough in prayer, submission, etc. It will continue the cycle of the children pushed even harder, the mother becoming an even stricter task master, adding more weight and burden to the children’s already heavy load as more pregnancies and births are added to the family. It will perpetuate, more debt, more financial pressure, more pressure in every way possible. Finally, one day something will crack and this illusion will shatter into a million pieces. For each woman, that shattering will be different. and will manifest in a different form. For some, it will be more painful than others. Some will begin to slowly pick up the pieces of their life and find a new way to cope with life’s challenges and joys, for others, they will wither away and become shells of their former selves. They will continue to breathe and exist, but not really live. Such are the casualties, those who don’t make it. The patriarchs don’t care about these women or their families. They are “collateral damage” in a war between “good” and “evil.” This “war” is what drives the movement and thus enriches their agenda as well as their own lifestyle$$$$$. At the end of the day, they are as much a “product” as the Duggars are.
Bottom line: BUYER BEWARE.
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Post by jemand on Apr 22, 2010 8:16:26 GMT -5
Thus speaks time cube! (timecube.com) Educators don't teach Cube Truth - for whichthey would be fired! Evil teachers betray students, as ONE is a Death Value. Cube 4x4 voids 1 & God. USA ripe for holocaust. Man evolves from teenager - in cube METAMORPHOSIS but ignores teenager to worship a male mother, guised in woman's garb,churchman called father. Adult god is adult crime upon their own children. a zero value existence - that cancel to naught as an entity. See www.abovegod.com Santa & God DEBASE WOMEN as if non-existing opposites. How evil unto their mothers. while killing innocent WOMEN AND CHILDREN. Keep ignoring me you evil asses and observe the slaughter of your children protecting the oil barons ripping off their families back home. The ENEMY IS BACK HOME, not in foreign lands. Ignore me!! All humans are created and exist between THE OPPOSITES OF MALE AND FEMALE values. Add the opposites together and humans cease to exist. A single God is death and constitutes evil worship. Opposites ARE NOT entities. Earth nor human equal entity. Male/female = zero existence, as in 2 opposite hemispheres. Male+female cancel each out. My Cubic Wisdom debunks 1 sex gods. The male god singularity and same sex trinity equates DENOUNCING MOTHERHOOD with a price of HIV devastating LIFE on Earth. Educators are KILLING US - teaching Death value ONEism. A male God without a female Opposite = Queer Worship. ONEism of a God Is Death. Adults Evolve From Children, not from a Queer deified as a God by Religious/Academic Organized Crime, Swindling Educated Stupid and Gullible. Love for God = Hate for Child. Horrendous HOAX on the Educated!! God Oners must ban all sex with Opposites. Trinity of males degrade female opposites. Sex okay for atheist, but not God Oneists. Opposite hemispheres equate planets to a Giant Brain, that has 4 faces, but no limbs. Adults create baby, baby evolves to adult. No 1 God can create a planet of opposites, which equate to a zero value existence, and cancels to nothing as an entity in death. All hail cube truth!!!
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em
Full Member
Posts: 176
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Post by em on Apr 22, 2010 8:26:42 GMT -5
I disagree that the Duggars would let their kids, but especially their girls, go to college.
They finish high school at 16. That means Josh was out of school for 4 years before he got married. Jana and John have been graduated for 4 years now as well. Jill and Jessa, and I think Jinger now too, are also done. Really, those first six kids have/had no desire to go to college? Or to get a job and get the hell out of that house for a few hours a week? It seems pretty clear to me that they are not allowed. They must stay at home until they get married. For the girls, this involves working their asses off to run the house and raise their siblings because their parents really don't do much of anything in that regard. There's no way any of those poor girls will ever get to go to college.
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Post by Sierra on Apr 22, 2010 8:49:26 GMT -5
I disagree that the Duggars would let their kids, but especially their girls, go to college. They finish high school at 16. That means Josh was out of school for 4 years before he got married. Jana and John have been graduated for 4 years now as well. Jill and Jessa, and I think Jinger now too, are also done. Really, those first six kids have/had no desire to go to college? Or to get a job and get the hell out of that house for a few hours a week? It seems pretty clear to me that they are not allowed. They must stay at home until they get married. For the girls, this involves working their asses off to run the house and raise their siblings because their parents really don't do much of anything in that regard. There's no way any of those poor girls will ever get to go to college. Most fundie children are fed the line that college, if not a bastion of eeevil liberal heathen pagan atheist witchcraft-cannibals, is an overwrought scam. Their parents talk as though college is an enormously expensive work permit required for certain jobs - and there are plenty of other jobs that don't carry such a costly prerequisite, right? For me, it took going to college to realize how small my world had been and how little I knew of the opportunities that college itself would offer. It's a catch-22. The Duggars might tell their girls something like: 'If you want a job and need to go to college for it, we'll support you,' but there's no way for the girl to know what those jobs are before she gets there. Then again, they might grudgingly tell a girl she could go, but then passive-aggressively restrain her by showing her how much she's needed at home, how selfish it would be to leave, etc.... The only way I can see one of them getting out is by a girl claiming God is leading her to become a nurse. ETA: jemand, I'm cracking up. That's perfect. ;D
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Post by janedoe on Apr 22, 2010 11:20:22 GMT -5
ane, you are really monopolizing the conversation. It's kinda rude. do you think you could contain your points into one post please?
No I'm not Jemand...and it's not going to work either [don't think I"m not aware of the 'why' of your hostility] It's not and never has been my intent or desire to monopolize any thing here, if that were the case I'd post on every single topic, I don't, nor will I, what I will do though Jemand is I will CONFRONT the LIES of some who tell these women leaving or Questioning patriarchy that it's just Christianity that is patriarchal and that if they only assimilate into the humanist or secular culture they'll be Fine--because in TRUTH they'll Still be facing and dealing with Patriarchy, MISOGYNY, and Unjust policies and realities WITH having to raise children AND I think they have a right to hear TRUTH, not AGENDA'S OF ANTI-GOD PROPAGANDA FROM SECULARISTS...be they from other Religions or from the social engineers of the left/including yes, humanists, or atheists, who have their own type of DOGMA, and WHY? Because I fight for WOMEN, ACROSS ALL IDEOLOGIES, BELIEFS AND SYSTEMS, because PATRIARCHY IS IN EACH ONE AND HAS DIRE EFFECTS ON WOMEN IN EACH ONE... my intent is NOT to persuade women to Stop believing in God or to believe or 'join' with any certain group, but I do Believe Women, have a Right to know, a HUMAN RIGHT, to know that Yes, there are Obstacles that are Real that she will contend with and NO the Support isn't out there, in other words, sure, there are many anti-religious women who are All for telling women to Leave the churches and to Leave the marriages but when those women do and wind up struggling with children, in POVERTY, and then those women find [and not just women who leave patriarchal marriages but women who find that EQUALITY ISN'T A REALITY YET...CONTRARY TO THE 'SECULAR MYTH'], then they find Where are All those who said do this do that, Where are they then? I'll tell you where they are, no where, it's Just like the women who screamed for ERA [and granted I concur with Many of the things they fought for] and who Screamed for the right for Women to be in the Armed Forces, remember Those debates? Remember the conservative Christian women who said it would be a harsh reality for women if that came to pass? Well look at today, women, a case in Pentagon [still on going and Still there HAS BEEN NO JUSTICE] and that case had to be fought for YEARS about these HIGH NUMBERS OF OUR WOMEN WHO ARE BEING RAPED IN OUR MILITARIES AND THERE IS NO JUSTICE, AND WHERE ARE THOSE LOUD MOUTHED WOMEN FROM THE ERA NOW? ARE THEY SUPPORTING THESE WOMEN WHO ARE HAVING TO DEAL WITH THE PTSD AND THE OTHER HELL WHILE THE RAPISTS GET PROMOTED IN MILITARY RANKS? NO, HELL NO THEY ARE NOT.... so ironically, the conservative Christian women of that era HAD A VALID POINT NOW DIDN'T THEY? While I in NO way am conservative, as a WOMEN'S HUMAN RIGHTS ADVOCATE, NOT AN ANTI-GOD AGENDAIST HERE, I WILL SPEAK TRUTH TO WOMEN, REGARDLESS, and if that isn't popular, too bad Jemand. Because these women, IF and/or WHEN they leave with 7 kids, IF they do not have the support OR THE KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT THEY ARE UP AGAINST, it isn't going to be the 20 something college feminist atheist with no kids who ARE GOING TO SUPPORT HER AND THOSE KIDS NOW IS IT? No, Never is... Does this mean that women should stay because of the obstacles, NO, AND I NEVER SAID THAT, NEVER WILL, [and btw, my daughters won't go to college due to the Costs, unless they change the laws on Student Loans or lower the tuition costs, NOT because we are fundie, my husband Works for Higher Ed, and That wasn't OUR decision that was THEIRS, we live in POVERTY DUE TO OUR STUDENT LOANS THEREFORE THE GIRLS LIVE IN POVERTY, how the hell do I tell them, oh IF you go to college you'll be better off than that family who works at a job making $10.00 an hour, when we make more than that YET BRING HOME LESS THAN $10.00, DO THE FN MATH, and oh, just so you know, MY DAUGHTER'S DON'T WANT TO MARRY EITHER...THEY ARE BOTH FEMINIST, RADICAL I MIGHT ADD, so, don't give me this Shit that because one rejects college due to Costs that they are lumped in with the Fundie lot, APPLES AND ORANGES HERE...and its a cheap shot besides]. So while some may be all in glee that yea hey we can bash Christianity here and Christian patriarchy, yea and all that, rah rah, great, when someone posts that there is no truth in some of the other views where WOMEN'S LIVES ARE YES, IMPACTED and leaving this INFLUENCE THAT THESE WOMEN SHOULD JUST IGNORE ANY OF THE WARNINGS OF YES, THESE ARE REAL LIFE ISSUES, because some twenty something woman with no kids or professional woman with no kids or who is upper income or what have you, that whole leftist liberal mentality, says so, uh, NO, I'm not going to be quiet. FACT is, yes there are Numerous young women, in homes with only two kids, including TEENS who are PRIMARY CAREGIVERS when a parent becomes Disabled or Ill, or Injured, OR that teen is doing DAYCARE because there isn't affordable DAYCARE for most, NOT WITH FIVE KIDS so, this LIE AND IT IS A LIE that these women won't be facing that if they just dump the Christian beliefs, is b.s., because it's not about just, JUST religious patriarchy, it's about ECONOMIC REALITIES, IT'S ABOUT THE FACT THAT WE HAVE FEMINISTS WHO WORKED FOR YES, BREAKING THE GLASS CEILING BUT WHAT ABOUT THE REST OF THE WOMEN OUT THERE? And any one who KNOWS feminist herstory KNOWS this to be the case and KNOWS I"m not the only one saying it, and it's about the fact that Yes Virginia, got news for you, MISOGYNISTS ARE IN THE SECULAR TOO, YOU DON'T ESCAPE IT JUST BECAUSE YOU LEAVE THE FUNDIE CULTS. So THen what you do...Pole dance? [don't think the men who are anti-moral absolutes ain't working that one, including the FACT JEMAND THAT NUMEROUS WOMEN DO HAVE TO WORK IN THE SEX INDUSTRY TO PAY FOR COLLEGE, FACT], another ugly MISOGYNIST REALITY, that the anti-god folks don't seem to like to CONFRONT ON THAT ONE NOW DO THEY? Why it's bad to oppress a woman under God but hey alright to oppress and Sexually exploit her under Secularism, like WTF really, it's Still Misogyny, it's Still Patriarchy, and it's Still abusive to women. So Yes, these are the Ugly Realities that women with children, especially many children DO ARE WILL FACE, and so then we have to start Looking at those and finding WAYS TO SUPPORT THESE WOMEN, OTHER THAN LIP SERVICE AND ANTI-GOD RALLIES, because GOVERNMENT ISN'T DOING IT, even Those programs that ARE there Jemand, and others, there are Thousands of women who Fall through the Cracks of the System, their children and it's Those women, who out there, with no support, often wind up REMARRIED, IN ANOTHER ABUSIVE SITUATION AND MANY OF THEM, WINDING UP DEAD BECAUSE OF.. OR, WOMEN WITH CHILDREN, WHO POOR, MEET A MAN WHO PROMISES THEM THE WORLD, AND LITTLE DOES SHE KNOW HE'S A PEDOPHILE THAT PREYS ON WOMEN WITH KIDS... you know, THOSE REALITIES, and those MEN ARE IN THE SECULAR JEMAND, so IF you don't like the fact that I am bringing these truths up [and oh this goes for elderly women too who wind up CONNED OUT OF MONEY FROM MEN WHO PROMISE THEM OR GIVE THEM SOME COMPANIONSHIP], too bad, if it flies in the face of your atheist I hate God and Christianity agenda well I'm sorry, but MY concern, and always has been, is seeing women, not being fed a pack of lies, and them knowing what's up ahead, not only that, but GETTING THESE ISSUES OUT THERE SO WOMEN, CAN START, BUILDING COMMUNITIES OF WOMEN HELPING WOMEN, SO THESE WOMEN, AREN'T LEFT ALONE, TO FEND FOR THEMSELVES WITH SO MANY KIDS... and Maybe, also getting MORE WOMEN, ENCOURAGING, TO LOOK PASS THE PROPAGANDA BULLSHIT, AND SEE THE REALITY AND FIGHT, FOR LEGISLATION WITHOUT SELLING OUT, HUMAN RIGHTS AND ECONOMIC RIGHTS FOR ALL WOMEN REGARDLESS IF SHE'S MARRIED OR SINGLE. Jane
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Post by sisof9 on Apr 22, 2010 12:07:32 GMT -5
Jane Doe - I don't want to be mean, but I am going to say this because I know I am not the only one... I don't read anything you write because A: It's soooo long and B: It doesn't make any SENSE. If you condensed yourself and wrote in a more... socially accepted way (?), like with paragraphs, and punctuation, and maybe less CAPS randomly spread out - I'd be more likely read it. You are 100% free to write wherever you will, and I am sure you will, but just a heads up it's not just Jemand (sp?)'s problem... I have no clue who you are and nothing against you as a person, but I can't read your posts.
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Post by sisof9 on Apr 22, 2010 12:13:18 GMT -5
Oh, and in reply to the college thing... I will give you this I suspect college is not ENCOURAGED in their house and that they would not support anyone going away to college- like living there. But, Anna has a college degree and there has never been any indication they are against that. And, some of the girls have expressed interest in nursing and I think they'd support that. But... I don't think their reason for not encouraging college is 'cause they'd lose the help - I think it's the atmosphere. I grew up in a MUCH less sheltered home than the Duggars and it was really hard for ME when I started going to college. There are really nasty people out there and while I am glad that I went and such I also totally would understand doing college from home in order to protect their girls. Not everyone's choice, but I'd understand it.
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Post by lychee on Apr 22, 2010 12:16:30 GMT -5
/Delurks/ Jane, I think I have to agree that you are monopolising the conversation somewhat and your posts are very difficult to read. However I would just like to address a couple of points that you made. Firstly I know that there are many people from many different cultural and religious backgrounds who post on this board. I do not think it is fair to characterise the posters as following "AGENDA'S OF ANTI-GOD PROPAGANDA FROM SECULARISTS" I think everyone here believes that people have the right and ability to make up their own minds about religion and whilst anti fundamentalist/extremist they are not necessarily anti-religion or personally atheist. I agree with the fact that there is not enough support for women out there and that there are many problems financial or otherwise that they may face when leaving an abusive relationship. However you seem to act as if Feminism is to blame for this. Instead it is in a great part due to the Feminist movement that the available options, flawed as they are, are even in place. Finally I agree that what we should be doing is "BUILDING COMMUNITIES OF WOMEN HELPING WOMEN, SO THESE WOMEN, AREN'T LEFT ALONE, TO FEND FOR THEMSELVES" In fact I believe this is exactly what NLQ and the Take Heart project are doing. But to build a community people need to work together and listen to each other. At the moment you don't seem to be listening much to anyone else and you are making it rather overwhelming for people to listen to you. Anyway back to the rest of the thread. I agree that there is no way that those girls are going to be able to leave anytime soon and I'm fairly certain that college will not be on the agenda. The sheer amount of work they have to do around the house and with their siblings makes that pretty impossible. I suspect though that they haven't been specifically banned from college and that their parents don't think that they are depriving them of opportunities. It reminds me of Vyckie's post about the way Angel was 'called' to be a SAHD. She was only 'called' to be there because they all knew they couldn't manage with out her! nolongerquivering.com/2009/09/09/vyckies-tour-de-crap-older-daughters-at-home-doing-nothing/ I personally think Duggers will make the older girls wait quite a long time to get married as well ( At least according to the VF/ATI/QF conventions.) They have got big runs of boys coming up and there is no way the younger girls will be able to take over all the work. I feel really sorry for them. eta: to add link to article
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torgo
New Member
Posts: 7
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Post by torgo on Apr 22, 2010 12:21:26 GMT -5
The health care bill, has limits as to What can be treated, like many HMOs already around [don't even get me started on the ludicrous co pays of those and deductibles] and for the Age Yes there are now more limits, already we are hearing of elderly who have diabetes, who will now have to go without certain treatments, on this new health care... Where are you hearing this? Right here: What is Medicaid?
Medicaid is a federally-supported but state-administered program intended to provide health insurance to low-income, low-asset individuals and families, including people with disabilities and people over the age of 65....that Medicaid is available to people with disabilities? Uh, no, that's not a "myth"; it's a fact. And more often than not, it's the "neoconservatives" - primarily those who complain that universal healthcare would bankrupt America - who conveniently omit the fact that state and federal governments are already in the business of subsidizing healthcare costs for certain people (e.g., through Medicaid). I guess it would be "false," if that were actually what I said. What I said, precisely, was that "many elderly Americans...already get government-subsidized healthcare..." Eligibility requirements differ from state to state, so some states may have a narrower definition of "disability" than others. That doesn't mean getting Medicaid while disabled is impossible. Observe: "People with disabilities often get Medicaid when they qualify for SSI. Ordinarily, it can take many days for Social Security to determine that someone meets disability standards for SSI and Medicaid. Establishing 'presumptive disability' is a faster way of qualifying."We were discussing your misapprehensions regarding Medicaid. Where's all this unrelated stuff about immigration coming from? You'd have to fall below the maximum income cut-off in your state. I don't know that I'd call that "dire" poverty, although it's certainly not a fun way to live. There actually is help "out there" but sometimes it's hard to find and access, not because social service agencies want to see the poor drop dead, but because some of the people who need help most are also least able to navigate through the maze of forms and meetings; or they may not be organized enough to negotiate service gaps by applying for a full range of services across multiple agencies. No, I wouldn't - but thanks for assuming the worst about me. Much appreciated. Find a local healthcare advocate and ask for her help to apply again. I'm not saying the process is simple, but it's certainly not impossible. When you go around disseminating these unabashedly negative views, they serve only to discourage applicants from trying again or even trying in the first place. And this still has nothing to do with euthanasia or the latest healthcare bill! You're arguing as if it were the deliberate goal of social service agencies to impoverish people and drive them into early graves. I'm going to take a stab in the dark here and guess that you've had negative run-ins with state social service providers - but that doesn't mean you should stop trying. Most urban centers do have dedicated people working on healthcare advocacy. And this still doesn't explain what specific problems you have with the latest healthcare legislation.
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torgo
New Member
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Post by torgo on Apr 22, 2010 12:54:05 GMT -5
For my own part, I don’t see you as monopolizing the conversation, Jane. I think your concerns are legitimate, and that the topics you’re discussing do have some bearing on the question of how to address the hyper-patriarchal teachings that dominate within QF circles. But it seems, from my vantage point, that you assume other posters are addressing you in bad faith. Your unusual posting style leaves a lot of room for (mis)interpretation. Take, for example, this: ...I will CONFRONT the LIES of some who tell these women leaving or Questioning patriarchy that it's just Christianity that is patriarchal and that if they only assimilate into the humanist or secular culture they'll be Fine--because in TRUTH they'll Still be facing and dealing with Patriarchy, MISOGYNY, and Unjust policies and realities WITH having to raise children AND I think they have a right to hear TRUTH, not AGENDA'S OF ANTI-GOD PROPAGANDA FROM SECULARISTS... I think Vyckie Garrison has been quite honest about her financial struggles since leaving QF behind. Yes, she argues that hyper-patriarchy, justified through the use of Scripture, is especially hurtful to women – and that’s because it is. The hyper-patriarchs aren’t merely arguing that equal protection and civil rights should be denied to women; they’re arguing that women themselves should willingly give these things up to make nice with God. They’re saying that women are in eternal danger – that women are at cross-purposes with a just and holy God – when they refuse to buy into the VF/ATI twaddle about how “helps meet” should behave. So, while gender-based discrimination does exist outside Christian circles, the secular forms lack the same kind of weight: Secular misogynists don’t usually argue that God will torture uppity women for all eternity. Almost everyone here is basically on the same side, regardless of how we view our own religious duties or civic obligations. The problem here is you seem to think that a) we’re all ignorant of this; and, b) no one is really doing anything about it.
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Post by arietty on Apr 22, 2010 21:54:02 GMT -5
Most fundie children are fed the line that college, if not a bastion of eeevil liberal heathen pagan atheist witchcraft-cannibals, is an overwrought scam. Their parents talk as though college is an enormously expensive work permit required for certain jobs - and there are plenty of other jobs that don't carry such a costly prerequisite, right? For me, it took going to college to realize how small my world had been and how little I knew of the opportunities that college itself would offer. It's a catch-22. The Duggars might tell their girls something like: 'If you want a job and need to go to college for it, we'll support you,' but there's no way for the girl to know what those jobs are before she gets there.Yep. My QF friend is absolutely disdainful of college. Her children stop doing any school work in 10nth grade though since they are several years behind in everything it really is below that. I've tried to encourage her to let them go further in education but they always have something they want to do which conveniently requires no education at all.. and I realized talking to them that they actually do not know what options they might have. They do not know that even taking courses in stuff like hair and nutrition at community college, stuff they vaguely express interests in, requires you finish school. College level jobs are stuff people on other planets do. Basically the girls do odd jobs until they get married.
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