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Post by charis on May 23, 2009 9:12:46 GMT -5
I'd also be extremely grateful to hear from those former QF ladies who left the lifestyle, but have not left their husbands. (Phoenix? who else?) I know that many QF women have no interest in breaking up their families ~ so, let's offer some useful suggestions for how it's worked for those who've BTDT ~ without getting a divorce. I resemble that. I did not "leave the lifestyle" until I was past childbearing, so we have 8 children. I did not leave my faith. I have not left my marriage- not yet anyway. I have to warn those contemplating leaving the lifestyle. Prepare for a battle. For my husband the abuse and control were an addiction, and he did not let go of that easily. And when he had no choice because I would not allow the abuse and control anymore, he switched to other addictions, which are no less destructive. You can read my blogs-listed at the bottom- if you like.
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Post by charis on May 23, 2009 9:31:46 GMT -5
Here are a few resources which come from a conservative Christian perspective which may help women get some perspective on their experiences and also "permission" from God to stand up against the abuse and/or to separate and divorce (if they are so inclined): Blogger Hannah has done a great service for us in her 9 part series ( click here) analyzing and clearly identifying the abusive mindset and behaviors with the aid of video clips from an episode of the "Super Nanny" program. She also compares and contrasts Super Nanny's assertive, no nonsense approach with the often anemic and counterproductive approach of churches to the problem of abuse in the home. Barbara Roberts: www.notunderbondage.com DanniMoss has many excellent resources: Click Here
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Post by krwordgazer on May 23, 2009 16:32:11 GMT -5
Reading Xara's and Charis' posts back-to-back has brought it to my mind that people wishing to leave QF might wish for two different kinds of help. Those who are turning away from religion in general would appreciate resources like Freedom From Religion. Those who wish to retain some form of religious faith would be more benefited by the organizations Charis listed. I suspect women in these situations would prefer to know in advance which type of organization they are contacting.
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Post by sargassosea on May 24, 2009 7:28:46 GMT -5
Hey all - Here's a link to the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence: www.ncadv.org/I will be excerpting some highlights for what is (for the time being) called the *What Can I Do?* FAQ. I'm trying to gather as many links as possible to sites which may be helpful in a very general sense. The links that have been mentioned are duly noted but y'all have any others? If you have a link you think would be helpful, please PM me. Thanks, Ladies! *edit to add - KRW, I agree
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Post by kisekileia on May 24, 2009 9:18:59 GMT -5
I think KRWordgazer is right as well. Women who remain conservative Christians would be afraid to work with atheist or anti-religious organizations.
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Post by xara on May 24, 2009 9:37:06 GMT -5
I think KRWordgazer is right as well. Women who remain conservative Christians would be afraid to work with atheist or anti-religious organizations. I agree as well. On the other hand women who feel that Christianity is inherently abusive would prefer to work with non religious organizations. I think it is good to have various types of organizations represented and clearly labeled as to affiliation so that individuals can choose what is most comfortable for them.
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Post by kisekileia on May 24, 2009 13:05:59 GMT -5
Yes! And ideally, there should be organizations that don't take a specific position on religious issues--that would be ideal for someone like me (though I've never been involved in QF), who is liberal Christian (thus, I don't fit with either evangelical or anti-religious organizations) and really doesn't like being told what to believe or do regarding religion.
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Post by rosa on May 24, 2009 13:37:18 GMT -5
Well, that's basically all the non-evangelical social service groups, and they're pretty much the biggest, best-funded social service groups (aside from Salvation Army) Catholic Social Services, Lutheran Social Services, Episcopal Family Services, etc.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on May 25, 2009 7:58:35 GMT -5
Vicky, Please feel free to post my past suggestions--with the caveat that I practice in only one state and can't vouch for the laws of other states. Anything I can do to help someone get out of that movement, no matter how small, I'd be happy to do. Thanks austinavery ~ I was pretty sure that I still had the letter you wrote to me critiquing the statement I wrote for the temporary hearing for custody ~ it took a little digging, but I found it ... just reading your statement exhausts me. I don't know how it's humanly possible for one person to do what you have to do.
To offer a critique of your statement, I think its fine, but out of order. Remember that judges listen, day in and day out, to my wife/husband is awful because . . .(or at least ours do, we have a whole bank of courts that do nothing all day but family law cases). That sort of thing is subjective, and judges don't like to rule based upon subjective factors–or at least they like to think they aren't doing so. Thus, the subjective stuff must be extensive, as your statement is, backed up as much as possible with concrete examples, and (this is my theory) brought out after the objective points.
The reason that your statement seems backwards is that the concrete, or objective information, comes later in the writing. Trot that stuff out right away. It's powerful.
The most effective examination I've been part of–had thrown at me frankly–was a lawyer who put my client's wife on the stand and asked her to give him percentage estimates for each category:
Q: Who takes the kids to the doctor? A: I do 75% of the time Q: The dentist? A: Me, 100%. Q: Prepares the child's meals? A: Me, probably 90%.
Etc., etc., excruciatingly etc.
They trotted this all out, rapid fire, barely giving me or my client time to think. Judges do not like to listen to long, drawn out explanations any more than anyone else, and while the events you are describing are deeply personal to you, they are not personal to the judge. You can lose their attention easily. So quick and to the point is important.
Then, once you have the judge's attention with concrete, objective things (the kids have a medical condition–only I have worked with them on it–I've attended 85% of the medical consultations about this condition without Warren, etc.), he or she may wonder about the human aspect behind the separation–and that can make the judge more receptive to "he's a control freak." If a judge had a nickle for every time he or she heard that . . . .
After explaining how much you know, and Warren does not know, about the children's daily care, medical needs, etc., then let on that he has refused to let you see them or talk to them. Judges get upset when one parent will not let the children see the other, but there are excuses. The classic response is always, "I was worried s/he would take them and leave the state," or something to that effect. But it is rather hard to make that story fly after the judge has heard about the kids needs and mom's primary concern for the children's well being.
The sexual abuse card has to be played very, very delicately. Unless you've walked in on it (in which case we'd be having a murder trial and not a divorce), best to treat is as if you don't want to believe it, but as a loving mother have to be very concerned. As hard as it seems, your daughter will have to be the one to come forward on this, so in your statement tread lightly. Make sure your attorney is on-board with what you say.
Wow. I had not idea what you have to deal with, or just how awful it was. No wonder your faith as been shaken. My heart goes out to you. Let me know how it goes. ...
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Post by castor on May 25, 2009 9:48:12 GMT -5
Oh this is good! I imagine playing the sexual abuse card very delicately must have been hard though. I can see why it's necessary. But wow. That must have been hard.
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Post by MoonlitNight on Jul 9, 2009 10:21:55 GMT -5
That's really good, Arietty. I hear from friends that I try to get to read feminist sites (only very polite, moderated ones) that it's too harsh and argumentative and they can't read it...but maybe it's just that they're not looking to have their opinions challenged. I sometimes read feminist blog posts (a more activist friend puts up a lot of links) and honestly, sometimes they are very harsh and argumentative, even for those who grew up in a secular, mostly feminist household. There's this special language of feminism, women's studies, gender studies, that the rest of us don't know, and different standards about how you should present yourself and your views, and what views you should be holding in the first place. On the spectrum of feminism between biblical womanhood and the extreme feminists, I would want to start people off with the stuff from the middle of the spectrum instead of throwing them right into the deep end. There have got to be some books or posts or something that lay some groundwork and speak in layman's terms about basic feminist issues and viewpoints.
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Post by cereselle on Jul 9, 2009 13:37:53 GMT -5
I love projects like this. ;D I'm a law librarian. I work at a school that doubles as the public law library for the county. I've worked with a lot of 'pro se' patrons-- those who can't afford a lawyer or can't find one to take their case, so are handling their cases on their own. I am willing to work with other legal professionals to develop a checklist and a step-by-step guide (with the caveat that this is not official legal advice) to give women a place to start figuring things out. I'm also willing to consult with women via email/phone/chat to get them started. In fact, you've given me an idea for a possible journal article. Yay!
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Post by kisekileia on Jul 9, 2009 23:30:23 GMT -5
You know, Bronwyn, I just said almost exactly the same thing in another thread, although with a slightly different thrust. The thing that keeps me from embracing feminism wholeheartedly is the sense that there is groupthink that I'm expected to go along with, that I'm supposed to believe only certain things and say only certain things. I already dealt with that in evangelicalism, and once was enough. The ideas I embrace most in feminism are that women are truly equal to men and that we have the right to make choices, as long as we are not infringing on the rights of others. The latter idea is something I see more in the sex-positivity movement than in second-wave feminism; third-wave feminism seems to be in between. I don't want to be in bondage to what other people think I should think--I want to make choices that are my own, without other people attacking me, guilt-tripping me, or saying I'm a bad feminist/Christian/whatever over them.
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Post by arietty on Jul 10, 2009 7:09:29 GMT -5
You know, Bronwyn, I just said almost exactly the same thing in another thread, although with a slightly different thrust. The thing that keeps me from embracing feminism wholeheartedly is the sense that there is groupthink that I'm expected to go along with, that I'm supposed to believe only certain things and say only certain things. I already dealt with that in evangelicalism, and once was enough. I embrace feminism wholeheartedly but that groupthink means I do my embracing by myself, LOL. I know exactly what you mean. Once you've come out of one groupthink swamp you get a whiff of it and run.
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Post by jemand on Jul 10, 2009 9:34:40 GMT -5
hey, but if none of you non-group thinkers use the label "feminism" the only people left who DO claim it will be the group thinkers....
That's one reason I never apologize for calling myself a feminist, even though I don't follow everything... (Mostly what I don't follow is sexual/porn related, like you said, an influx of sex-positivity)
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Post by tapati on Jul 10, 2009 10:01:18 GMT -5
There are as many flavors of feminism as there are feminists. I don't worry about what other women mean by the term. I just focus on what I mean by it--a feminist is someone, male or female, who works towards gender equality and inclusion.
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jo
Junior Member
Posts: 73
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Post by jo on Jul 10, 2009 16:59:32 GMT -5
Okay, I want to take this conversation to a very practical situation but it twists Patriarchy on its head...
As I have posted in my intro, my mother was the one who went hook, line and sinker into the Patriarchial world. She desperately wanted to embrace quiverful but Dad steadfastly refused to have his vasectomy reversed and so they ended up adopting 5 children instead.
Here's the thing, Mom is Patriarchail, wife-only submission. Dad is a feminist. But, mom has spent most of their 38 years passive-aggressively pushing Dad into this world. She exhibits all the characteristics of a Narcissistic Personality. And, if you read descriptions of what its like to be the abused and controlled spouse of a Narcisst, you would read a clear and accurate description of MY FATHER.
Mom has been the aggressor, disguised as a submissive wife. She has swollowed Dad's personality whole. She even pushed and manipulated him to physically abuse we children when we were younger (my clear memories are of her standing behind him and suggesting what he should do, what he should not allow us to do, etc).
I got out of this life. I learned and grew. And, for the sake of my children, I tried to allow relationship with my mother within boundaries. 2.5 years ago, I came to the conclusion that mom is toxic, will not respond to boundaries and I broke ALL contact with her. I recently reneged somewhat and allowed at the request of my children that if they want contact with her and if she contacts them, I will allow a relationship under supervision. But, I consider myself motherless and will for the rest of my life. I will not allow her to abuse, control, dominate or have any foothold in my life.
I paid a HARD price for my stance. My father cut me out of his life and the lives of my 5 minor siblings.
In the strangest twist of fate, mom has long labeled Dad as the abusive one. Easy for society to believe and Dad never believed she did this behind his back and thus never defended himself. 19 years ago, he figured out what physical abuse is, that he had abused his children and he got help and stopped. He apologized to we children and never, ever struck a child again. Learning to not verbally and emotionally abuse without a support syste was hard but he fought for that as well, got help if he thought he was slipping and kept hiimself accountable with people outside of mom, who wanted him to abuse so continued to try and push him to. 13 years ago, she left him because she thought she was in love with a better man. She cae back, though in her version she submitted to her abusive and controlling husband.
2.5 years, out of the blue she again alledged abuse and tried to leave. We checked with the children and there was NO evidence that he was abusive. Knowing her history, that was when I cut off contact with her. I strongly suspect there was a man involved but we never proved it. 1.5 years ago, she left again. This time, she looked up and began an affair with her high school sweetheart. It was the first time Dad truly saw her for who she was, truly understood how she had been manipulating all these years. He set about fighting her for the sake of his kids. Having been capable of manipulating him every step of 36 years, she did not anticipate he would fight back. She backed off. The boyfriend was sent on an overseas assignment and she had to complete training to recover her career (the one thing he always stood his ground on in their marriage was that she should seek a career, she was not happy full-time at home and he didn't feel it was healthy...if only he knew).
In the last 18 months, Dad has been trying to find himself. He's reestablished his own relationships with his kids. And, he's documented what has been going on for their marriage. He made her put the children into school and began to reduce her influence and control.
Now, the boyfriend is back. In the last 2 months, she has openly restarte her affair and tells Dad that she is going to use him for childcare for the next 10 months and then leave him.
Now, obviously, she has not fully ever obeyed Patriarchy and she has a serious mental defect going on. But, imagine how messed up you would be if your spouse never expressed displeasure, never objected but controlled you passive-aggressively. While in the Patriarchail world, Dad never had the game plan. I don't know where in this world mom is now. She enrolled 2 of the children at Liberty Academy (high school associated with Jerry Falwell's Liberty Uni), so she's still there somewhat.
So, with that background, my father has finally decided he is leaving. Its been very hard for him. He didn't have the rulebook. He thought the submissive sweet wife he was married to was her personality. He truly didn't know she was seething underneath. He did ask, and she never told him the truth. Until 2.5 years ago, he had NO idea what she had alledged behind his back their entire marriage. I personally discovered that when I ignored who she tried to tell me he was and confronted him about our relationship that the orge was in HER head. When I confronted him as an assertive and independent woman, he immediately made the changes I asked for in our relationship and thanked me for telling him.
Dad has secured another house and its ready to move into. He's secured her agreement to let im take the kids. He's got proof of the affair, her attempts to paint him the bad guy before, her spending of his large inheritance, the career he walked away from for her, and his role as primary caregiver to the kids.
I'm so proud of him. But, I'm scared he will let her manipulate him again. He fits all the criteria of an abused spouse to the point its scary. But, he still won't admit she's abused him in any way. HOW do I support him in this?
I desperately want him to leave, obviously. I want him and the children (one is now 18 and headed to college one of his other few defiances to her ideals was that we children would go to college) to know the freedom I have found. But, I no longer know to support him in this.
How do I handle this?
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Post by jemand on Jul 10, 2009 17:42:35 GMT -5
wow jo, that's really tough. I really do not know.
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Post by tapati on Jul 10, 2009 20:17:38 GMT -5
Well, I think he needs moral support that he's doing the right thing when he doubts himself, and whatever practical support in terms of backing up his observations in court if needed and so on. I think just being there for him and supporting his new-found understanding of the situation is the main thing. It will take time for the upheaval in his life to settle down and it will be stressful as any life change is. I don't know how close you live at this point. There may be practical support type things you can do as he sets up his new household.
I wish I had a magic wand...there are so many situations where it would be handy.
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Post by rosa on Jul 11, 2009 0:05:36 GMT -5
Wow, Jo. Tapati had really good suggestions - i wonder, did you ever find a good therapist he might be willing to see?
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Post by grandmalou on Jul 11, 2009 18:25:52 GMT -5
Just a word of grandmotherly advice, OK? Abusers/controllers are drawn to women/victims like magnets when they are the most vulnerable. Somehow they zero in on the fact that the victim person will be an easy mark...and I don't just mean this in a sexual way. I mean that control freaks figure out pretty quickly that they can make this person do whatever they want...even become the sole wage earner. Or whatever else pushes the controller's buttons. Any person who has lived through maybe decades of abuse is kinda starved for approval...any body who will validate them as a real live person with feelings...BTDT... Example: You get invited out to dinner, drinks, dancing, and it all sounds like a nice evening with a person who is just so 'friendly' and seems nice...so what's the harm in this? Just an evening of fun, right? So you get a little schnonkered...and it gets you to flapping your jaws a little too much. Next thing you know, there's this comforting ear to listen, nice shoulder to cry on, etc....and the hook is set. Thing is, the abuser/controller type is fairly patient in the beginning...he/she knows a good thing when he/she sees it. And ZAP! Off you go again, possibly in another one of those NO WIN situations.
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jo
Junior Member
Posts: 73
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Post by jo on Jul 11, 2009 20:34:00 GMT -5
Yeah, Grandma, I worry about that a lot. Dad doesn't drink and hasn't since college. But, he is emotionally devestated. He still loves her with all his heart and has trouble grasping that she is not the person he thought she was.
Truth is, if she weren't openly caring on this affair, I don't think he'd leave her. He never has before.
What I can say is that he has 4 minor children he is the primary caregiver for. And despite her thought that she thinks she has destroyed all of his support systems, he is moving to them. His family is there. His ala mater is there. His church, his ordination and a potential job are all there. He also has the unquestionable love and support of his 4 adult children and his 10 grandchildren.
My sister and I talked and we're almost certain that she has stolen and hidden the bulk of his inheritance. She's going to hire a PI to gather everything we can about mom, her double life, her lies and the theft we suspect she's done. We don't think Dad will really and truly fight her. We want to have documented evidence if we can find it, to give to his lawyer or to show her. We don't want to destroy her life, we all figure she'll do that pretty well on her own. But, we want her to give him back his money, give him fair and equitable division of custody and the assets and to leave him ALONE after that.
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Post by krwordgazer on Jul 12, 2009 1:10:38 GMT -5
Jo, my sister was in a situation like that with an abusive "best friend" who controlled her life for a decade. When my sister left this friend at last, she had no clear idea what she was leaving-- she simply knew she couldn't take it any longer and had to leave. The truth about Narcissistic personalities, codependency, and all that-- those were things she began to learn after she left. My sister first began to wake up when I began to say things very casually like, "That isn't my experience of the way friends treat one another," or simply "Why did she say that to you? That wasn't true!" But she couldn't handle the full truth all at once, and I suspect your dad may be the same way. Give him a little time away from your abusive mom, and he will begin to see what normal looks like. You don't have to convince him of everything right now. You might give him a book like "Codependent No More" by Melody Beatty, if he expresses an interest when you mention it. But I agree with Tapati. Let him take this at his own pace, is my advice. But Grandmalou has a good point, too. If he's open to a suggestion that he needs to guard himself right now, because he's vulnerable-- and not to get into anything on the "rebound"-- that would be a good idea.
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jo
Junior Member
Posts: 73
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Post by jo on Jul 12, 2009 16:37:15 GMT -5
I don't *think* Dad would get into something on the rebound, mostly because he's totally focused on the kids needing to get away the situation and needing a stable parent.
But, he's not going to listen to my advice even if he were in danger. Seems I've been *too* vocal about my distrust and dislike of my mother.
At the moment, my sister and I are trying to establish contact with each child individually and help them understand that if and when they want to escape, we will offer safe haven for them, even if we have to fight our parents to give it to them.
My sister was visiting this weekend, and she says the kids are absolutely traumatized at this point, and they want nothing to do with either parent because this has drug on for so long and NO ONE has provided them safety and security through this.
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Post by tapati on Jan 7, 2010 14:55:19 GMT -5
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