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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Nov 14, 2009 10:45:53 GMT -5
NLQ FAQ: Does Patriarchy Glorify God? by KRwordgazer nolongerquivering.com/2009/11/14/nlq-faq-does-patriarchy-glorify-god/Major kudos to Kristen for this excellent FAQ. This one has been in the works for quite some time ~ and for those who've been around the forums for a while, you may remember that after putting in quite a lot of work on this FAQ, I was pretty frustrated with trying to come up with an approach to this question which would mean anything to a practicing QFer. nolongerquivering.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=faq&action=display&thread=318 I truthfully would not have blamed KR and jlp if they'd have given up ~ but they surprised (and impressed!) me with their tenacity ~ KR did an awesome job of actually listening to the various arguements and then formulating a response ~ not necessarily in the way she personally would address the issue with word studies, etc. ~ but in a way which takes the QF mindset into consideration. I think she pulled it off beautifully and I'm really proud of her
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Hillary
Full Member
"Quivering Daughters ~ Hope and Healing for the Daughters of Patriarchy" Now Available!
Posts: 129
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Post by Hillary on Nov 14, 2009 12:08:53 GMT -5
Excellent, excellent. Wonderful job, Kristen.
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Post by journey on Nov 14, 2009 15:11:45 GMT -5
Well done, kr!
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Post by tapati on Nov 14, 2009 15:57:12 GMT -5
It is excellent and it clarifies something I have been thinking in regards to my own first marriage. I can see that my ex behaved in different ways when faced with different women who did or did not set boundaries with him. The seeds of violence were already within him but giving him total control and no limits just amped it up to the nth level. It was as bad for him as it was for me.
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Post by arietty on Nov 14, 2009 19:11:32 GMT -5
That was VERY good KR!! I love your deconstruction of formula in christian belief and practice.
When I was still married and starting to come out of my fundamentalist haze I read a website in which the writer said, "Faith is not formulaic." This was a huge revelation to me. I wrote it down on a scrap of paper and hid it somewhere, LOL. That was really a turning point for how I viewed my whole christian life.
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Post by krwordgazer on Nov 15, 2009 0:23:45 GMT -5
I'm really pleased that everyone is so happy with it-- especially you, Vyckie! I hope it really helps Quiverfull women! ;D
Thanks for all the kind words-- they are very much appreciated.
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mara
New Member
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Post by mara on Nov 15, 2009 1:48:22 GMT -5
Good job, KR. I knew you could do it. And thanks for the heads up that it was done.
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Post by whatkindofwoman on Nov 15, 2009 9:52:59 GMT -5
"Power corrupts, and absolute power in the home can corrupt absolutely."
good one.
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Post by margybargy on Nov 15, 2009 11:22:18 GMT -5
Good job. This will make people think.
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Post by mrscook1973 on Nov 15, 2009 13:51:42 GMT -5
Excellent article!!! I couldn't have said it better!
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Post by scottinal on Nov 16, 2009 10:55:12 GMT -5
Very well argued. Very persuasive.
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jo
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Post by jo on Nov 16, 2009 23:17:00 GMT -5
Excellent post, and I've noticed its been discussed elsewhere on the web as well.
I have to chime in that I really and truly thought that DH and I had shed the last vestiges of this world several years ago. But, the very reason that I have been absent on these forums for awhile is that 2 months ago I discovered we have paid the ultimate price for this paradigm that we had NOT fully shed, niether of us fully.
DH did not become abusive to me, he loves me far too much for that. But, the pressure and expectation of this world, of a SAHM and one income and losing his partner 100% into the world of motherhood and not as a partner combined with a mental illness that the Conservative Evangelical movement does not recognize to be real caused this man I love with all my heart to act out in self-destructive patterns which have nearly destroyed ALL of us.
All I can say is that because I've been *here* since the beginning of the blog, I knew instantly what this life we hadn't quite fully shed and were on the verge of shedding, had done to him and to me.
Patriarchy convinced me to check my brain at the door and convinced him that the burden of making sure a roof was always over the head of this large family was HIS burden alone. Even after we walked away from Quiverful beliefs because pregnancies nearly killed me, even as we tried to balance what we were fooled into believing was the only right way with what our brains told us was better, we self destructed. I realized just how bad it was pretty darn quickly.
And, together, we're leaving this whole world behind. What has happened to our Christian faith as we leave? I'm not sure. I still believe in a Creator and a Savior. He has walked away. Its okay, I realize now that we don't need that 'faith' to be together and to enter this world.
Now, we get to pick up the pieces because Patriachy was just as abusive to HIM as it was to ME. It has nearly destroyed HIM with the burden of being everything and doing everything to make sure 10 people are safe, secure and fed. It paralyzed him from following his dreams, and it left both of us convinced that I could never, ever step out and share this burden because it would be 'wrong' and not what was best for the children.
Next week, he quits his job, we spend the next month getting our house ready to put on the market and EVERYONE in the family is going back to school...well, not the babies yet cause they are too little but the other 8 members of this family are. And, the startling reality is that in the next 18 months, I will likely have to work while going to school and he will become the primary caregiver to the children because he cannot work and make the grades he needs for the dream he is now pursuing.
What a legacy Patriarchy has left us! It has nearly destroyed all of us.
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Post by margybargy on Nov 17, 2009 7:14:56 GMT -5
Oh my goodness, Jo. Your poor DH and poor you. It sounds like he was under tremendous pressure. You deserve a lot of credit for being flexible enough to make changes that will make life more manageable for him. It takes character to acknowledge the need for change. And it takes courage to actually make those changes. You also deserve a lot of credit for taking on more bread-winning responsibility so he can pursue his dream. That's true love. Best of luck.
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jo
Junior Member
Posts: 73
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Post by jo on Nov 17, 2009 10:33:38 GMT -5
Oh, I'm actually going to school as well. I'm going to pursue a variation on my dreams. I wanted to be a Family practice doctor, even had guaranteed admission to my family's ala mater when I was in college. But, I'm at a point where I feel like I cannot do the training necessary for medical school and residency and balance the needs of 8 children.
So, I'm going back to Physician's Assistant school. As a PA, I can do most everything I wanted to do as a doctor and the training will take me 4 years instead of 11 years.
Yes, DH is pursuing his dreams first of the year. But, so am I. It just happens to fall that since I have to finish my Bachelor's first, I can balance working and he cannot so I could end up working AND going to school for awhile.
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Hillary
Full Member
"Quivering Daughters ~ Hope and Healing for the Daughters of Patriarchy" Now Available!
Posts: 129
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Post by Hillary on Nov 17, 2009 10:43:51 GMT -5
Jo ~ Hugs. I am so sorry this happened and pray that your way will be clear and full of rest.
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Post by kisekileia on Nov 17, 2009 22:07:11 GMT -5
Wow, Jo. I'm glad that you and your husband have realized what is going on and what you need to do, and are doing it.
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Post by arietty on Nov 17, 2009 23:36:36 GMT -5
Jo I can see reading your post that when a family patterns itself along lines of "shoulds" it can be really destructive.. rather than simply growing and changing in directions that suit the actual PEOPLE in the family. One of my gripes with all the family, family, family blah blah teachings is it treats family like a separate entity rather than a group of individuals.
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Post by anatheist on Nov 18, 2009 14:26:51 GMT -5
Jo, I am really glad for you and your husband that you are both getting to go back to school and pursue the life that you wanted. I'm glad for your kids that they are going to school too.
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Post by margybargy on Nov 18, 2009 14:50:31 GMT -5
Oh, I'm actually going to school as well. I'm going to pursue a variation on my dreams. I wanted to be a Family practice doctor, even had guaranteed admission to my family's ala mater when I was in college. But, I'm at a point where I feel like I cannot do the training necessary for medical school and residency and balance the needs of 8 children. So, I'm going back to Physician's Assistant school. As a PA, I can do most everything I wanted to do as a doctor and the training will take me 4 years instead of 11 years. Yes, DH is pursuing his dreams first of the year. But, so am I. It just happens to fall that since I have to finish my Bachelor's first, I can balance working and he cannot so I could end up working AND going to school for awhile. Even better! So happy for all of you. What an ambitious bunch. Your kids have great role models. Best of luck.
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Post by margybargy on Nov 18, 2009 14:54:56 GMT -5
Jo I can see reading your post that when a family patterns itself along lines of "shoulds" it can be really destructive.. rather than simply growing and changing in directions that suit the actual PEOPLE in the family. One of my gripes with all the family, family, family blah blah teachings is it treats family like a separate entity rather than a group of individuals. Yes! This is one of those things that a lot people know but can't always articulate. (Like me - I'm basically a knuckle dragger.
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Post by rosa on Nov 18, 2009 16:16:32 GMT -5
KR is doing an AMAZING job in the comments over at Amy's Humble Musings. WOW.
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Post by arietty on Nov 18, 2009 17:34:37 GMT -5
LInk?
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Post by rosa on Nov 18, 2009 17:39:56 GMT -5
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Nov 18, 2009 17:45:02 GMT -5
KR is doing an AMAZING job in the comments over at Amy's Humble Musings. WOW. Yes! For those who haven't seen the discussion at Amy's Humble Musings ~ you really should go check it out. KR truly goes to the heart of the matter for QF families whose desire is to glorify God in their hearts and in their homes. And by asking them to consider whether patriarchy actually produces the desired results, this FAQ has the potential to pry open the patriarchy trap and release both the women and their husbands from the bondage of this hierarchical family model. It's already having a tremendous influence ~ did anyone notice all the tweets and other social networking shares on this FAQ? It's an NLQ record. Plus, Amy's blog is fairly popular among QF women and her "musings" have sparked similar posts and discussions on several other blogs as well. So again, KR ~ you are fabulous. Thanks for sticking it out even though I'm sure it must have been very tempting at times to throw up your hands and say, "This is no use ~ it can't be done!"
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Nov 18, 2009 18:28:26 GMT -5
That was VERY good KR!! I love your deconstruction of formula in christian belief and practice. When I was still married and starting to come out of my fundamentalist haze I read a website in which the writer said, "Faith is not formulaic." This was a huge revelation to me. I wrote it down on a scrap of paper and hid it somewhere, LOL. That was really a turning point for how I viewed my whole christian life. That's so interesting, Arietty ~ because towards the end, when everything was unraveling for us and I was scrambling for answers for our family, I prayed long and hard about what was happening with our family ~ where we went wrong ... and the Lord showed me that I'd fallen into a trap of mistaking forumlas for faith ~ and I actually wrote a rather extensive article, "Marriage and Family: By Faith or Formula?" for the newspaper ~ and that article was also carried in several QF publications. Here's an excerpt: Faith is not Magic – One aspect of the sorcery condemned in scripture is the attempt to control that which is beyond our control through manipulation of the spirit world with rituals or incantations. It is man’s attempt to attach strings to God so that we can make Him dance like Pinocchio to do our bidding. This is very common and easily recognized once you grasp the concept.
I knew a lady who boasted of how she “prays the scriptures” over circumstances in her life. Now, there is nothing wrong with praying the scriptures and that can even be quite profitable. But if we think we can induce God to cooperate with our program because we say certain words or perform this or that activity, then we have fallen for the sin of sorcery. Sometimes it works – though I would seriously question by what spiritual power our will is accomplished. More often, God fails to dance and we are left bitter and angry.
I mentioned at the beginning of this article the workshop I attended where the speaker guaranteed that if we simply apply certain disciplines when our children are toddlers, God will grant us smooth sailing through the teen years. I also wrote about Julie, who thought that she could get God to straighten out her husband if only she acted a certain way. Both cases are examples of magical thinking which is more closely related to sorcery than Christian faith.
Consider all the millions of Christians who have married and raised children. You would think with all that experience, someone would be able to say “Here is what works.” It’s that way with baking. If you take a recipe for Cinnamon Bread and you follow the directions exactly, you will get Cinnamon Bread. Where’s the recipe for a wise husband who loves his wife as Christ loved the Church? If I just act a certain way and say the right words – add a pinch of toad liver, an eye of squid, Abracadabra and POOF! My husband is Prince Charming! Who’s got the magic potion for mature, godly sons and virtuous daughters? Yes, there are principles that we must apply, but I’m sorry to say there are no guarantees.
It’s tempting to think “If only I had a secret formula!” You do A and B and you WILL get C. Wouldn’t that be nice?
But where is faith if we have a formula? If you could do certain things and get guaranteed results, you wouldn’t need faith in God – because you would BE god! You’d be all powerful!
We have to face the fact that we are not the only ones with who possess a will. Our husbands have their own free wills. Our children, as if you needed a reminder, have their own wills. We need to trust that ultimately, God’s will is going to prevail – but we are not necessarily going to be the ones who make that happen. I might post the whole thing sometime. It doesn't really fit under "Vyckie's Tour de Crap" because there was quite a lot of mature reasoning involved ~ and it really showed how I was learning and growing and doing some much-needed correcting in the direction my Christian walk had taken. Leaving formulas behind was definitely a step in the right direction ~ and if I'd have stopped there, I imagine that my Christian faith today would closely resemble KR,s ~ but, I kept going and left it all behind ~ you know, one extreme to the other ~ that's me.
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