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Post by km on Oct 19, 2009 13:03:03 GMT -5
I'm glad to see that you've written this, Vyckie. I do have a minor quibble with your piece: I am uncomfortable with calling fundamentalism "mental illness." Fundamentalism is misguided, certainly, and it's a political ideology that has deeply harmed many of us. But mental illness is just a fact of life for many people; it's not necessarily "dangerous" in most people, and in any case... I hate to see these kinds of stereotypes perpetuated against the mentally ill.
wrt the work of Francis Schaeffer... Can someone provide me with some background on why Francis Schaeffer has become the latest trend among hipster Christians? Are they unaware that he spearheaded the Christian Right in the US? His writings are all over the place these days, and all the hippie Christians I knew in college spent time volunteering at L'Abri. I tried to educate my sister (another L'Abri fan) about his connections to RJ Rushdoony, and she wouldn't hear of it. I'm completely taken aback by these Christians who are now reading Schaeffer as some harmless guy who started a commune. And I'm worried about it.
Glad to see Frank Schaeffer reading here.
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Post by km on Oct 15, 2009 18:22:45 GMT -5
I remember how people viewed so-called cults back in the day. They were seen to have almost magical powers of mind control, beyond mere persuasion. The cold war and the experiences of Korean War POWs made people sensitive to the dangers of "brainwashing". Right. A lot of it had to do with the Soviet style mass confessions. The CIA was intrigued by the fact that alleged "enemies of the state" could be coerced into confessions without actually leaving any visible marks on their bodies. So, massive studies were undertaken (most notably at McGill University in Montreal) to figure out how the Soviets were doing it (That's where most of the techniques used at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib originated--especially sensory deprivation.). In one of the links Tapati provided, it didn't surprise me that some of these deprogrammers had been hired by US intelligence officers for use at Guantanamo--for the purpose of making prisoners break. I'm sure that some of the techniques that we've all read about in these prisons has some links to the deprogramming craze (just as it's linked to some of the CIA "mind control experiments" of the Cold War.)--from Muslim prisoners being forced to eat pork to patterns of sensory and sleep deprivation. |
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Post by km on Oct 15, 2009 17:45:23 GMT -5
Tapati: *reading the links you posted* Sheesh... The narrative that you posted here is horrifying--surely tantamount to torture. I really, really hope that law enforcement agencies have changed their attitudes about this since then...
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Post by km on Oct 15, 2009 12:40:03 GMT -5
Why have some Quiverfullers taken up the practice of "attachment parenting" and/or "re-birthing." Aren't these practices often tantamount to abuse in QF circles?
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Post by km on Oct 15, 2009 12:34:20 GMT -5
Is the Duggar family representative of most QF families? They just seem like such nice people!
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Post by km on Oct 15, 2009 12:00:07 GMT -5
I also have the impression that more of this deprogramming activity has been directed at people involved in sects that are related to Eastern spirituality than at people involved in Christian cults? I wonder if this is accurate?
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Post by km on Oct 15, 2009 11:51:32 GMT -5
By the way, what happened with your friend's family sounds horrible.
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Post by km on Oct 15, 2009 11:51:06 GMT -5
Yeah, agreed. It doesn't seem that kidnapping is really ever acceptable. In a situation in which children are being abused (as among the Branch Davidians, say, or the FLDS) or where coercion is taking place (as is said to happen among Scientologists and others), there are outlets in place for the involvement of social services and law enforcement. Otherwise, though, in a country that espouses a commitment to religious liberty, it seems to me that adults should have the freedom to join new religious movements and/or cults if they choose to do that.
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Post by km on Oct 15, 2009 11:40:45 GMT -5
Why are so many people involved in the QF lifestyle attracted to homesteading/living off the land practices?
What is the "alternative dominionist economy" that so many homeschooling families are involved in?
How can a secular homeschooling family find social outlets for children without steeping them in extremist Quiverfull ideology? This kind of ideology dominates homeschooling support groups and homeschool conferences throughout the US.
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Post by km on Oct 15, 2009 10:53:08 GMT -5
It also strikes me that some of the deprogramming activity that you discussed is blatantly illegal, and I wonder if there has been a move to reign in some of the abuses over the years? Either within the field itself or among law enforcement agencies?
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Post by km on Oct 15, 2009 10:51:09 GMT -5
Your story is amazing, Tapati. I was wondering what you now think about deprogramming - is it a legitimate way for family to treat adult "cult" members? If someone had succeeded in getting you out of those circumstances, from your perspective now as recognizing the patriarchy imbued in it as harmful, would you be grateful? Or would you still feel that you'd had your autonomy unrightfully taken away and that it was necessary for you to go through all you did - even the worst parts - on your own, through your own decisions, but then have left by your own decisions too? I was wondering these exact same things. I'm also curious whether or not you've seen the depiction of deprogramming in the Kate Winslet film, "Holy Smoke"? And if so, what you thought of it? It portrays deprogramming as a sort of...unregulated field, and one that might attract some rather unsavory characters...kinda like bounty hunting. If that's accurate (at least among some deprogrammers), it wouldn't surprise me to learn about widespread abuses like what you discuss. I also have to wonder if there's actually a wide range of practices within the field--ranging from, say, the activities of licensed psychologists to those of people with virtually no qualifications who go and kidnap believers against their will? |
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Post by km on Oct 15, 2009 10:01:58 GMT -5
How can women who have never gone to college or learned Math/Science at an advanced level possibly provide an adequate education to their children? Wouldn't an effective homeschooling parent need to be a veritable scholar/intellectual?
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Post by km on Oct 15, 2009 10:00:25 GMT -5
What is all that business about the Joshua Generation, and why does it deploy such militaristic language?
Is the kind of pentecostal extremism depicted in the film "Jesus Camp" common within QF circles?
What is the Homeschool Legal Defense Association? Why does it get involved with right wing political causes (such as the anti-abortion movement) that seemingly have nothing to do with homeschooling or its legal defense?
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Post by km on Oct 15, 2009 9:47:28 GMT -5
There are well-documented links between the QF movement and some strands of white supremacist Christian nationalism. And by any account, the vast majority of people who participate in the movement are white. Couldn't it be argued that QF is in many ways a white supremacist movement committed to expanding the US's *white population*? How would most QF families react to this charge?
What are the ties between Mike Huckabee and the Radical Christian Right? (involvement with Gothard, etc.) How did Huckabee implement a program designed by one of America's leading QF apologists in Arkansas's public schools and prisons? What are some catch phrases in QF/Dominionism circles that I could keep in mind when trying to identify stealth dominionism? I don't want my kids exposed to Gothard's teachings at the local public school.
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Post by km on Oct 15, 2009 9:36:52 GMT -5
Why is it so often the case that women are the ones who pressure their husbands and families to adopt the QF lifestyle? What's in it for women?
What are some of the cultic practices of the more extremist homeschooling groups? (provide examples from Gothard, Charity Ministries, etc.)
What is Christian Domestic Discipline? Isn't it just a fundamentalist Christian rationalization for engaging in sexual kink?
What kinds of child abuse are upheld by the teachings within QF? (The Pearls, Gothard, etc.) What is the deal with putting kids in dark closets? Using hot gun glue sticks to punish children? The use of hardware to beat children? Leaving infants to cry to themselves indefinitely? Has law enforcement been very attentive to these abuses?
Why do women leaving the lifestyle--and their husbands--face custodial pressure not to renounce religion? Don't custody proceedings usually skew toward the custodial desires of the mother?
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Post by km on Oct 15, 2009 9:31:04 GMT -5
RJ Rushdoony--the founder of contemporary Christian Dominionism and of the homeschooling movement--promoted the idea of a theocratic Christian state with the power to execute both "homosexuals" and "unchaste women." He was also an extremist anti-Semite. How do most QF/Dominionist families feel about their intellectual heritage and about the teachings of people like Rushdoony?
A number of people within the Christian Right in the United States seem to have a kind of persecution complex in spite of the fact that their religion is dominant in this country. What is that about? Why is it so often the case that--when someone challenges the belief system of members of the Christian Right--Christian fundamentalists claim that they are being "persecuted"? How can a dominant religion in a country that upholds a separation between church and state be oppressed?
Why are so many of the Christian Right's pro-lifers in support of the death penalty? If they are for life, after all, shouldn't they be for measures like government-subsidized healthcare and basic food provisions?
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Post by km on Oct 15, 2009 9:24:27 GMT -5
I'm a secular individual. Is there any reason why I should be informed about the excesses of this movement? I mean, it's a small fringe movement without any real social or political power...right??
What is stealth dominonism, and how does it affect American political discourse? (Talk about Glenn Beck, for instance.)
Who is Erik Prince (founder of Blackwater Industries, now called Xe), and what are his ties in Christian Dominionism and the homeschooling movement?
Which members of the Bush administration had explicit ties the Dominionist movement? (John Ashcroft, etc.)
What kind of political power does the Dominionist movement actually wield? (Cite Michelle Goldberg's Kingdom Coming, Chris Hedges' Rise of Christian Fascism)
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Post by km on Oct 15, 2009 9:17:22 GMT -5
Who was Matthew Murray, and how was he affected by the homeschooling movement (and specifically by the Bill Gothard cult)?
This site is devoted largely to the negative affects of the QF lifestyle on women. What about the negative ways in which it affects certain men?
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Post by km on Oct 15, 2009 9:14:46 GMT -5
What is the relationship between QF teachings and Christian Dominionism?
Who is RJ Rushdoony? Frances Schaeffer? What influences did they have on the contemporary homeschooling movement?
What are relations between QF teachings and conservative Roman Catholicism?
What is Patrick Henry University? Is it accredited? What is their goal?
What is ATIA? A Beka? BJU Press? Christian Light Publications?
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Post by km on Oct 13, 2009 15:53:37 GMT -5
How might I go about telling potential romantic interests about my multiple children?
Where can I find reasonable guidelines for raising children and setting appropriate boundaries with them? So, we gave up courtship, and I no longer pre-view all of their books and movies, but what about curfews? Dating?
I have become disillusioned with the efficacy of abstinence only education. How can I responsibly teach my children about sex and sexuality? What are some good resources that I can use to prepare my teenagers for safe sex?
We got into a lot of dietary restrictions with QF (back to the land, homegrown, organic, etc.), but I am unable to keep up that lifestyle as a single parent. What are some basic guidelines for keeping my children healthy? How can I afford fresh fruits and vegetables on my smaller income?
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Post by km on Oct 13, 2009 15:46:10 GMT -5
I've just glanced over this thread, but I really think Tapati's suggestion of a kind of who's who of big names in the Christian Right homeschooling movement would be helpful, esp. wrt names that aren't well-known in US pop culture. Everyone knows who Dobson is, but not so with Gothard or Vision Forum or Denny Kennaston, for instance.
I'd also like to see something about the head-covering culture within the movement addressed. How did head-covering and plainclothes (Amish and Old Order Mennonite style dress) become such important markers of one's involvement in the movement in some non-Mennonite communities?
Why can't some of the women cut their hair at all?
What is a double covering?
Why are the young children--and especially the girls--so preoccupied with marriage?
What are some of the cult-like mechanisms that are used to control some members of this movment?
What is the vaccination controversy within Quiverfull about, and why do so many QF kids remain unvaccinated?
I also think a resource page for women trying to get out of this is important. As well as some of the potential questions:
How can a woman who has never worked outside the home find ways to support her family in a divorce situation?
What are legal and financial support services are available for women leaving this lifestyle?
How can I get foodstamps, housing assistance, Medicaid, and other social services provided for my family?
My children are behind grade level in school. How can I prepare them to enter the public school system?
After so many years of micromanaging my children's lives, how can I give them their lives back?
My children are still entrenched in the Quiverfull mindset. How can I help ease their journey into a less-sheltered lifestyle?
I'm interested in dating again. How can I meet people nowadays?
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Post by km on Oct 11, 2009 8:35:33 GMT -5
"No food? You must have missed that because food is quite a big deal in Iskcon. How long ago was that? Nowadays you see more Indians at these festivals (most likely Rathayatra) than you do caucasians."
It was, well, really not that long ago--some time in 2006. And nope, no Indians were there. It's possible that there had been food earlier in the day, but I never saw any food.
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Post by km on Oct 10, 2009 15:57:12 GMT -5
Ugh... Wow... By the way, please don't think I'm questioning your story--or debating about whether or not members of the movement were actually exploited or abused. Of course, I believe you; this is consistent with what I've heard about the group for my entire life.
One particular experience that I had with them, though, probably had a lot of influence on the way I have tended to understand the group. I remember being in Washington, DC not that long ago--and seeing signs advertising some kind of "Indian Festival" that was coming to town. I was horrified to find that the festival had no food, nothing identifiable as "Indian" at all other than some ISKCON literature. And most noticably--no Indian people. Everyone had blond hair and blue eyes. It's that kind of thing that I found really, really...well, obnoxious. Also, I was flagged down and offered literature a lot...by some of these blond haired blue eyed people who were trying to convince me to attend "their Indian festival."
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Post by km on Oct 10, 2009 14:39:57 GMT -5
jemand: Yeah, I see what you're saying. That said, I guess I don't really want to paint all religion in broad strokes--or even all conversion-based religions. I would rather not, eh, make claims about what was toxic for me necessarily being toxic for everyone. Rather, I was mainly trying to outline the reasons for some of my own personal squicks when it comes to religion. I can't stand Bill Maher or most any of the other big name pop culture atheists because I find them condescending in the extreme. Also, I think it's important to keep in mind who's speaking--colonizer or colonized. Because some religious practices are more a form of protest against the dominant religious discourse than they are a manifestation of patriarchy (For instance, many Muslim women I know say they wear the veil for this reason. Many religious rights in Latin America have been politicized in this way as well--I'm thinking of Virgin of Guadalupe worship in Mexico, for instance.). And I would never stand in judgment of that kind of religious practice. If North America had anything like Latin American liberation theology, for that matter, I might still be a practicing Christian.
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Post by km on Oct 10, 2009 13:08:02 GMT -5
"If you look at the history of Christianity, it has been forced on native populations repeatedly around the world."
Right, I know... This probably has a lot to do with my aversion to conversion teachings of any kind--and with the kinds of questions I'm asking.
How much of the Gaudiya Vaishnava zealoutry for conversion really comes from traditional Hindu teachings? Do you know? I found several articles claiming that the preaching was largely a response to Christian missionaries. Along the lines of what you said: "Well, why shouldn't other missionaries send devotees to the West?" And I really can't dispute the logic there.
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