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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Sept 10, 2010 8:15:29 GMT -5
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Post by ladygrace on Sept 10, 2010 12:02:50 GMT -5
Okay, now I'm no where near a prude, having had several one-night-stands in my earlier, single days, but these questions are creepy. My fiance and I are a modern couple (hell, we planned, and had, a baby, before marriage!), and don't even ask, "Am I part of your fantasy?" A couple of the other things make sense for couples to discuss further along the relationship (like personal boundaries, "allowing husband freedom to try new things"), but the rest shouldn't be asked of someone who is really a stranger and is just 16.
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Post by stampinmama on Sept 10, 2010 12:24:49 GMT -5
This all seems like it's out of some outlandish movie, but I know this happens often in QF/P families more often that we realize.
Those questions were so inappropriate to be asking a girl of 16 and one that wasn't even interested in him.
What a horrible thing to have happen to you!
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Post by lucrezaborgia on Sept 10, 2010 12:33:27 GMT -5
My fiance and I are a modern couple (hell, we planned, and had, a baby, before marriage!), and don't even ask, "Am I part of your fantasy?" My fiance loves me dearly and I'm pretty sure I'm not part of all his fantasies! Drew Barrymore however...As much as I love him, he's not my sole fantasy either. That's why it's called A FANTASY! At least, to me anyways. I can't imagine having a stranger ask such things. I don't think I ever had a guy ask me any of the "strange" questions except for the "try new things" but that's because I firmly believe in being GGG www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ggg Specifically definition #2 (Caution! adult language in that link)
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em
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Post by em on Sept 10, 2010 12:40:51 GMT -5
Poor Ruth. How creepy to be asked those questions by a total stranger. How awful that your dad pushed, ok forced, you into this when it was so clearly repulsive to you.
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Post by amyrose on Sept 10, 2010 13:04:44 GMT -5
Some of this reminds me of the times I went on mostly set-up dates with less conservative evangelical men. I started calling them "wife-shoppers" and the dates "job interviews". So much time has been spent even in churches where dating is allowed telling singles--teens or otherwise--that it is so important to have certain qualities in a spouse and that you can't risk any attachment to someone who is not appropriate, that a first date with some of these people is nothing but a series of awkward and sometimes intrusive questions. The idea of getting to know a person normally and gradually through spending time together is foreign to them.
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Post by lucrezaborgia on Sept 10, 2010 13:24:47 GMT -5
I guess I did things a little differently than most when it came to dating. I got trapped in an abusive relationship at the age of 19 to a man who was 10 years older. I left him when I was 23 and decided that there was NO WAY that I would put myself into another relationship until I thought I was ready. Over 5 years later, I started online dating and made it clear that I was looking for a husband, not just a boyfriend. A few frogs later *smirk* I met a guy who was pretty fantastic, but he didn't feel that spark, so we parted ways. Funny enough, the next person we met we're now engaged to.
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Post by tapati on Sept 10, 2010 13:38:27 GMT -5
The subtext I was getting was that he liked kinky stuff (at least for QF folks) and was trying to see if you might go along with his needs in that regard. While he sounds like a creepy guy, the situation was probably as weird and constrained for him as it was for you, though at least he was older and given a bit more power in the situation. He was probably made to feel that whatever he was desiring, it was wrong and shameful and he had to hide it or cloak it in weirdly worded questions.
The whole situation was horrible and I'm sorry you had to endure it for so long!
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Post by nikita on Sept 10, 2010 15:22:00 GMT -5
The subtext I was getting was that he liked kinky stuff (at least for QF folks) and was trying to see if you might go along with his needs in that regard. While he sounds like a creepy guy, the situation was probably as weird and constrained for him as it was for you, though at least he was older and given a bit more power in the situation. He was probably made to feel that whatever he was desiring, it was wrong and shameful and he had to hide it or cloak it in weirdly worded questions. The whole situation was horrible and I'm sorry you had to endure it for so long! I realize that this is a story from the young woman's point of view but the entire time I have been reading as the mother of sons and my heart broke for the boys as well. The extreme pressure put upon them to grow into 'Godly Men' and follow the instructions given to them regarding courtship and the opposite sex must be terrible. That poor boy forced (I am quite certain) to get up in front of all of those people and ask a girl if she will accept him as a future husband candidate was just awful. I realize you didn't like him but he is a product of the same peculiar and dehumanizing upbringing with all it's impossible standards and expectations and it must have been as awkward and uncomfortable for him to talk to you and proceed in the continued contact as it was for you. He probably was praying that he'd get a wife who wouldn't be a prude in private but knowing it was going to be very hard to figure that out before the vows and it was too late. I feel for that position because I was in it as well. In my cult we did not date or court, we just 'spent time' together doing things like sitting in church, witnessing, eating, some social and recreational activities although those were very few, with no physical contact whatsoever not even holding hands or the chastest kiss permitted. So I found myself a month before marriage wondering what was going on in the head of my future husband and seeing no way to find out except to ask him. So I asked him and he almost ran the car off the road he was so shocked. But we very awkwardly began to talk about what we expected and wanted in terms of a sexual relationship after marriage and I was really glad I asked him and so was he. But it took a huge amount of courage to bring it up and I had no way to know how he would react to the topic. And we were older than you, actually engaged to be married at the time. I can't imagine being sixteen and having a male practically stranger asking such intimate questions such a long time prior to any actual engagement or marriage. But I feel for the kid, needing to know and having no idea how to handle the situation without being creepy about it. The other thing that strikes me is how contradictory it all is for you. Be pure and don't ever think about sex or boys at all and then bam! suddenly you're supposed to just be open and lower your boundaries with some boy you don't know because your father decided it was time. Yet you are still expected to keep pure and not be alone with the same boy... it's just such a jumble of mixed signals and misplaced trust/distrust. My impression of the early matchmaking is that your father is fundamentally afraid of young girls' sexuality (as evidenced by his rageful presumption that your first period was actually the result of you losing your virginity, which was an illogical leap to make) and he was hoping to get you settled safely off his hands before 'something happened' and he could no longer claim to have a perfect pure and chaste daughter. He sounds like a man who had no joy in parenthood and absolutely no idea how to relate to his children in any kind of human or meaningful manner. It's as though his children were distant from him, alien creatures he didn't quite understand or like very much. That is the impression I get when you write about him. I am so sorry you were subjected to all of this.
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Post by fabucat on Sept 10, 2010 15:42:42 GMT -5
I tell my father about some of the things that I read on this blog and he thinks that I wear a tinfoil hat and that I'm insane. No "rational" secular person wants to believe this happens in the USA. And I'm def. more spiritual and pro-God than my dad is.
Markos Molitsas writes a book called "American Taliban" and he gets trashed by fellow liberals who say he's being too hard on "conservatives." (What I read on this blog isn't conservative, it's positively Dark Ages!)
God bless you Ruth and all you other bloggers who Quiver No More for your writing talent and your courage. You are my heroes.
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Post by nikita on Sept 10, 2010 16:28:07 GMT -5
I tell my father about some of the things that I read on this blog and he thinks that I wear a tinfoil hat and that I'm insane. No "rational" secular person wants to believe this happens in the USA. And I'm def. more spiritual and pro-God than my dad is. Markos Molitsas writes a book called "American Taliban" and he gets trashed by fellow liberals who say he's being too hard on "conservatives." (What I read on this blog isn't conservative, it's positively Dark Ages!) And that is the key, really. It's not just conservative, it is the Dark Ages. There are perfectly sane and normal conservative Christians who don't believe in or do any of these things. These things are not required of any one biblically. There is always the danger that those who have not experienced this culture first hand will paint everyone with the same brush and make assumptions about all Christians, or all conservative Christians in particular. There are certainly degrees of conservatism and legalism out there. When I was checking out the Gothard 49 Character Qualities link I was struck by the fact that someone actually decided that there were forty-nine character qualities to obsess over and make great effort to perfect. The idea that we are supposed to do that is where they go wrong, to me. I will quote the site: "One of God’s primary goals for believers is to transform them into the image of His Son so that they may be a reflection of the character of Christ." This is bad theology. We can never be made 'a reflection of the character of Christ'. We are justified through Him without any merit of our own, and are to 'go and sin no more'. The problem is that these people have nuanced every single thing we do and say into some sin or other so that no one has any hope at all. Everything is wrong, everything is suspect. Simple human emotions are classified as sin. I'm not advocating a position of no effort whatsoever to rise above and improve our character and avoid active sin. But this microscopic view of all things human (with a special emphasis on traditionally female desires, talents, and tendencies) as sinfulness to be eradicated with all severity from our hearts and minds -- let alone behavior -- is setting everyone up for an epic fail. It is set up to destroy everything in us that make us human. And as women, it is especially set up to demonize everything that is female. As an example: This is not universally true of absolutely all females, but generally women are more verbal, more social, more nurturing. That is the general tendency, with exceptions. These are the very traits that are demonized and to be extinguished harshly as 'sin'. Verbal? Don't speak in church or bible studies or pretty much anywhere at all where men are present. Social? Don't have female friends you spend time with, that is foolishness and tends toward the sin of 'gossip'. Nurturing? Keep her pregnant and too busy to care for the children she has and make sure she follows a severe child-training program developed by a heartless monster. The whole idea is that women need a man to train them and hold them accountable and make sure they are perfected 'as Christ perfects the church'. And perfect seems to mean having their very womanhood squeezed out of them and micromanaged by some man who has 'authority' over them. Men are expected to 'lead', but women are expected to be 'perfected', with their fathers and husbands the regulators and enforcers of this 'perfection'. It's as though they think that God handed us the gift of salvation while at the same time sticking out His foot and making us trip. The callous and manipulative will simply ignore all but the outward show of this type of 'godliness'. But the sincerely seeking and devout will trip over this, never believing that they can be good enough and making themselves miserable until they either lose their minds or burn out and lose their faith.
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Post by lucrezaborgia on Sept 10, 2010 18:07:45 GMT -5
My impression of the early matchmaking is that your father is fundamentally afraid of young girls' sexuality (as evidenced by his rageful presumption that your first period was actually the result of you losing your virginity, which was an illogical leap to make) and he was hoping to get you settled safely off his hands before 'something happened' and he could no longer claim to have a perfect pure and chaste daughter. Scary things happen when a man's honor/piety becomes buried in his daughter's vaginas. Honor killings and acid attacks. Ugh! American Taliban indeed!
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Post by MoonlitNight on Sept 10, 2010 18:14:49 GMT -5
The subtext I was getting was that he liked kinky stuff (at least for QF folks) and was trying to see if you might go along with his needs in that regard. While he sounds like a creepy guy, the situation was probably as weird and constrained for him as it was for you, though at least he was older and given a bit more power in the situation. He was probably made to feel that whatever he was desiring, it was wrong and shameful and he had to hide it or cloak it in weirdly worded questions. The whole situation was horrible and I'm sorry you had to endure it for so long! I feel sorry for both RazingRuth and Adam! They were both under far too much pressure, and neither of them knew -- or was allowed to figure out -- how to relate to eachother. They weren't allowed to dislike eachother, or even be nervous. I agree with Tapati's analysis -- while Adam's questions were creepy and inappropriate to be asking at that point...he must have been desperate to know the answers, to have dared to ask them at all. I'd be very surprised if that young man was NOT terribly horny, ashamed of it, needing to be loved as well as laid, and was a bit kinky on top of all that. And he'd been told that this marriage would be forever. He couldn't afford to make a mistake, but he didn't have the experience or the freedom to be able to TELL if he were making one. And he didn't have enough practice dealing with girls to avoid jamming his foot down his throat. The situation was even worse for RazingRuth, but being friends with a lot of lonely and misunderstood young men, I can't help feeling bad for Adam as well.
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Post by krwordgazer on Sept 11, 2010 0:07:15 GMT -5
Nikita wrote: And perfect seems to mean having their very womanhood squeezed out of them and micromanaged by some man who has 'authority' over them.And yet if you stand up against having your womanhood squeezed out of you-- you're being "unwomanly."
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Post by ladygrace on Sept 11, 2010 4:47:37 GMT -5
I guess I did things a little differently than most when it came to dating. I got trapped in an abusive relationship at the age of 19 to a man who was 10 years older. I left him when I was 23 and decided that there was NO WAY that I would put myself into another relationship until I thought I was ready. Over 5 years later, I started online dating and made it clear that I was looking for a husband, not just a boyfriend. A few frogs later *smirk* I met a guy who was pretty fantastic, but he didn't feel that spark, so we parted ways. Funny enough, the next person we met we're now engaged to. You sound like me! In an abusive relationship at 17, got out at 22, only he was only a couple years older. Got back on the dating-scene more marriage-minded. Took until I was 25 to meet the right man, only we didn't get together for a while. We were good, platonic friend, both in other relationships. When those relationships ended, we realized we knew each other so well and are very compatible, and we fell in love. When's your wedding? Ours is in less than three months, and holy crapola we haven't done much yet!!
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Post by ladygrace on Sept 11, 2010 4:57:59 GMT -5
Tapati brings up some good points. I'm used to dealing with men who have the freedom to say and do as they please rather than being forced into a mold and having one shot at a relationship and trying to figure out, without any real help, how to go about it.
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Post by ladygrace on Sept 11, 2010 4:59:53 GMT -5
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Sept 11, 2010 9:44:38 GMT -5
Thanks for letting me know ~ I have added those installments to the right category now. When we remodeled the website, all of the Story categories got deleted ~ so I've had to go back through and add them all back in. Kind of a pain ~ and I obviously haven't done it perfectly.
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Post by lucrezaborgia on Sept 11, 2010 10:40:39 GMT -5
When's your wedding? Ours is in less than three months, and holy crapola we haven't done much yet!! October 2011. Have not gotten the exact date yet because it will depend on when I can get a reservation for the venue. We're having a renaissance wedding since my fiance is really into the Society for Creative Anachronism and I promised him that he could wear his armor. He makes all his own clothing for the SCA and will be making my wedding dress. His style is Polish and I'll be wearing a German Cranach gown. The mother that is helping out with the wedding never got married and is THRILLED at the prospect of having her dream wedding through her daughter. Right now we're working on the guest list and lining up possible caterers to set up tastings for when my mother comes to visit. My fiance does calligraphy and has done invitations before, so he's doing ours on fancy paper that my aunt has so graciously offered to buy. When I first met my fiance, I didn't like him AT ALL and even told him I probably wouldn't be seeing him again. Then we later became friends and now we both feel like we don't ever wanna be with anyone else.
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amy97
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Post by amy97 on Sept 11, 2010 14:36:46 GMT -5
[ I feel sorry for both RazingRuth and Adam! They were both under far too much pressure, and neither of them knew -- or was allowed to figure out -- how to relate to eachother. They weren't allowed to dislike eachother, or even be nervous. I agree with Tapati's analysis -- while Adam's questions were creepy and inappropriate to be asking at that point...he must have been desperate to know the answers, to have dared to ask them at all. <snip> He couldn't afford to make a mistake, but he didn't have the experience or the freedom to be able to TELL if he were making one. And he didn't have enough practice dealing with girls to avoid jamming his foot down his throat. The situation was even worse for RazingRuth, but being friends with a lot of lonely and misunderstood young men, I can't help feeling bad for Adam as well. Ruth, I've been reading your story and I'm so sorry for what you had to go through. Clearly this wasn't what Ruth wanted, but I'm also wondering --- how much choice did Adam have? Did Adam's father consider his wishes any more than Ruths father considered hers when he agreed to this "courting?"
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Post by ladygrace on Sept 11, 2010 19:48:13 GMT -5
When's your wedding? Ours is in less than three months, and holy crapola we haven't done much yet!! October 2011. Have not gotten the exact date yet because it will depend on when I can get a reservation for the venue. We're having a renaissance wedding since my fiance is really into the Society for Creative Anachronism and I promised him that he could wear his armor. He makes all his own clothing for the SCA and will be making my wedding dress. His style is Polish and I'll be wearing a German Cranach gown. The mother that is helping out with the wedding never got married and is THRILLED at the prospect of having her dream wedding through her daughter. Right now we're working on the guest list and lining up possible caterers to set up tastings for when my mother comes to visit. My fiance does calligraphy and has done invitations before, so he's doing ours on fancy paper that my aunt has so graciously offered to buy. When I first met my fiance, I didn't like him AT ALL and even told him I probably wouldn't be seeing him again. Then we later became friends and now we both feel like we don't ever wanna be with anyone else. Ooooh, will you share pics of your gown at some point?
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Post by ladygrace on Sept 11, 2010 19:48:35 GMT -5
Thanks for letting me know ~ I have added those installments to the right category now. When we remodeled the website, all of the Story categories got deleted ~ so I've had to go back through and add them all back in. Kind of a pain ~ and I obviously haven't done it perfectly. Remodeling websites is a pain. I did mine all over a couple years ago...still have things I'm fixing.
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Post by apprentice on Sept 12, 2010 8:33:43 GMT -5
Jeez, gotta echo everyone else -- it's interesting that poor Adam actually asked all those questions like a perverted (pun intended) version of what you should know about each other before settling down together (or in some cases just playing together).
Definitely curious about what happened to him.
I can't truly imagine how terrifying it would be to be forced into marriage. Especially at 16.
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Post by lodrelhai on Sept 12, 2010 19:19:32 GMT -5
While I understand how Adam's environment, possibly just as repressive and controlling as Ruth's, would do a great deal towards shaping this young man's viewpoint, I'd like to point out the section that followed: Later, as I was speaking to the brother who didn’t consumate his marriage for six months, I got to watch the horrified face of this brother as I relayed these questions from Adam. He said that Adam was definitely not following the ATI/IBLP, courtly love script. I didn’t figure he was. So here we have the reaction of another male, also raised in the same environment, who is equally horrified by what Adam is asking. Yes, I understand how the pressure and complete lack of any sexual vent can make a young man too awkward and forward. And I can understand how, with having no other vent, he might just come right out and ask. And this would be particularly straining to a young man with a taste for kink. But here's a question: being raised in a suppressive environment with no teachings on sex beyond "save yourself until marriage," just where would this young man have learned about "new things" to try? I strongly suspect Adam's upbringing was not as controlled and isolated as Ruth's, and her speculations that this match was possibly meant to bind that family closer to ATI further enforces that possibility. Admittedly, I've also read the next part of this story on Ruth's on blog, as well as other comments from her there that indicate Adam wasn't so much an awkward and sexually-frustrated teenage boy as an abusive-jerk-in-training. There is a difference between a couple who's planning a life together discussing the private and potentially embarrassing intimacies in which they might engage, and someone making an awkward and uncomfortable situation even more so for the other person because he has the power to. Between most of the neighborhood boys being male, and my brother's friends coming to visit frequently, I was around a lot of teenage boys when I was young. I know they engaged in a lot of "inappropriate" talk when the adults weren't around (typically either centering around some hot star or girls in general). But out of all of them, only one push talk that made others uncomfortable, only one phrased the talks in terms of himself and whatever girls might be in the area, only one had to be threatened by the guys before he'd shut up about what he'd like to do with their little sisters, and only one actually tried anything with any of us. We may not be hearing Adam's point of view, but Ruth's description reminds me very, very much of that one boy. And unlike the girls in my neighborhood, she had neither others who would protect her nor the strength and freedom to protect herself.
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Post by nikita on Sept 12, 2010 20:57:14 GMT -5
It's not a zero sum game though. Feeling for the boys' upbringing and awkwardness doesn't take away from the awfulness of the girls' upbringing and powerlessness. It's horrible for both genders, being raised in this way.
And if you take an immature boy and give him all the wrong guidance or lack thereof, especially encouraging the most assholish and jerksome aspects of his personality then...you're basically bending that twig in an ugly way, a way that he might not have gone in had he had a more appropriate guidance and upbringing. That his brother (who didn't consummate his marriage for six months so there's some wrongness there in another direction IMO) had a different basic personality and outlook doesn't mean that Adam's was aberrant. And frankly when I think of 'kink' I am thinking of more kinky than I think a boy like Adam might be thinking about. In very conservative circles what I would consider vanilla may be thought of as completely unacceptable for 'good Christian women' to participate in. So that's really a very relative situation, that he might wonder about what was acceptable to her versus what she would consider sinful or whatever.
I guess what I'm saying is it's dreadful for all involved. These teachings and social constrictions warp all the children who are raised within them, including the boys. That the boys wind up on top of this twisted system doesn't make them any less traumatized and psychologically disfigured by it than the girls are. They just suffer differently than the girls do (and arguably less in the short run), depending on the people involved.
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