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Post by philosophia on May 19, 2009 16:01:59 GMT -5
Hi! I'm a mother of 9, who's finally taken the step of standing up and saying "No More!" (Not the kids, the man!) I'd like to know how the women, who left these narcissistic/borderline men who have their daughters spellbound, dealt with the internal family rejection as well as the external societal rejection.
We've all been there, I suppose. Picture perfect family, so everyone believes, so "why is that evil woman causing so much trauma too that poor man and those innocent babes?" My husband recently forwarded an email to me in which a secretary at work berates me for not being able to dissect the word forgiveness. This same woman freely admits her first impression of my husband was a petulant, egotistical, male chauvinist, slob, pig! And she never knew him in private nor suffered the indignities of his wife for 26 years!
As I said, I am so pleased this forum exists. I thought I was completely alone in this. The husband says God will not allow us to divorce, God will kill one of us first. God "tells" him things. I can't believe I put up with this farce as long as I did. Must be a strong perseverance gene!
I, too, was gently talked out of this bizarre thought process by two agnostic/atheist acquaintances. My world view is still up in the air, because I know I won't get custody if I become a renouncer, and I'm not sure what I believe anymore.
Thanks again for this forum!
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on May 19, 2009 17:36:54 GMT -5
Wow, philosophia ~ welcome. Sounds like you're still in the midst of quite a situation ~ you're not yet divorced, so are you separated? Do you have the kids with you? Do your kids still believe all the "biblical worldview," QF, etc.? What sort of support are you receiving right now? Are you still going to church? So glad you found us ~ we're here for you. BTW ~ I sent you a private message ~ be sure to look for it in your "inbox" on this forum.
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Post by arietty on May 19, 2009 19:14:06 GMT -5
WELCOME! You can read a lot of my story in my posts here Philosophia. I left my borderline ex 11 years ago. I have 8 kids. No there's never been an official diagnosis but I have read extensively on Borderline Personality Disorder and I know with no doubt that he has it. And no it doesn't make me sympathetic towards him because there is a name for his nastiness. Nastiness is nastiness. Believe me I know how it is to be cast as the evil one. I am still that in the eyes of many ("that poor poor man.." gag). Interesting about the secretary. I had a woman tell me once that my ex reminded her of her father--a controlling child molester. But this woman STILL took my ex's side because he was sobbing on her doorstep. I got so frustrated at how easily christians were manipulated. You can read my story about other people's responses immediately after leaving here: nolongerquivering.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=vyckie16&action=display&thread=79&page=2#557And that doesn't even get into what the church elders I was hauled in front of had to say.. but I am waiting to get to that part in Vyckie's story before I chime in with my own experience. I am wondering why you say you won't get custody if you renounce your faith? If that is the case I suggest you put off any renouncing until you do I still call myself a christian but I am so extremely liberal and unbible that I am sure many would disagree. Anyway Philosophia.. it's a hard road but let me assure you well worth it. Freedom of mind and body and heart is priceless. It's a painful journey when you've been in a community for so long, to lose friends and your place in the world. It's hard to find a new place when you have a large family. But it's all kind of exhilarating because you are making your own choices. I look fwd to reading more of your story
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Post by rosa on May 19, 2009 20:23:34 GMT -5
The language you report about God killing one of you - it trips a lot of warning flags for me. You should document that, at the very least (get him to write it down or say it in front of a witness) but also you should be very careful and if you are feeling threatened, run, get help, get someone else to stay with you, whatever -don't damp down any natural alarms for fear of overreacting or slandering him.
I was just reading an article about the rise of murder-suicides by men lately, here's a few paragraphs:
"In the United States, which now sees 10 murder-suicides a week, they have coined names for such men: "slam dunk murderers" and "family annihilators" are current favourites. "The profile of a family annihilator is a middle-aged man, a good provider who would appear to neighbours to be a dedicated husband and a devoted father," says Professor Jack Levin, a leading expert from North-Eastern University in Boston, Massachusetts, who has studied such cases.
"Often he tends to be quite isolated. He is often profoundly dedicated to his family, but has few friends of his own or a support system outside the family. He will have suffered some prolonged frustration and feelings of inadequacy, but then suffers some catastrophic loss. It is usually financial or the loss of a relationship. He doesn't hate his children, but he often hates his wife and blames her for his miserable life. He feels an overwhelming sense of his own powerlessness. He wants to execute revenge and the motive is almost always to 'get even'."
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Jul 20, 2009 12:00:57 GMT -5
Hey all ~ philosophia has been very busy ~ so I'm taking it upon myself to let everyone know that she won the temporary custody hearing recently ~ so her (soon-to-be-ex) husband has moved out of the home and now she is busy settling into life as a single ex-QF mom. Just a couple quick quotes from philosophia to update you all on that situation: I got temporary custody of the house and all of the minor children. After the hearing [my 15 year old] the "surrogate mother", ran up and pointed her finger at me and said "I HATE YOU!" and turned to my attorney and said, "I would punch you in the nose if I did not know it was wrong!" and stomped away. I spent my truimphant 5 minutes crying into the arms of the two women who came to appear as witnesses on my behalf. Mothers cannot stand being hated. Yes, my compassionate husband brought ALL of the children to the hearing. ... I responded with this: Here's a recent update from philosophia: When the 15 yo told me why she decided to stay instead of going with Dad it was "To terrorize you". Does that give you any ideas? Life here is really tough right now. No one is doing anything helpful anymore. (Remember the saying, "work yourself out of a job training the kids"? NO MORE!) The older two girls will do nothing without me practically forcing them, unlike a month ago when the 15yo would voluntarily make gourmet meals for Dad. My attorney wants them evaluated for emotional incest, and there is speculation the big girl will refuse to go.... She stirs up trouble with the other children while I am busy managing other things, which is most of the time right now. No, it stinks right now. But I expect it to eventually get better. So, I guess that makes me an optimist after all. So ~ good news for philosophia ~ but she could really use some encouragement right now. I remember how stressful those early days of leaving were ~ I'm glad philosophia still has her optimism 'cuz she's gonna need it. Edited to remove identifying info.
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Post by jemand on Jul 20, 2009 12:34:37 GMT -5
I'm glad philosophia has custody... and as angry as her 15 year old seems right now I wonder if maybe behind that "to terrorize you" answer she really does want to be with her mother and not her father... but is to angry to say so. I also wonder if she feels like as the oldest she's lost the most now that the paradigm she lived as long as she can remember is being overturned-- like Berea being angry at losing the normal education a teen her age would have had, having to grow up too quickly, etc. Also... on the growing up too quickly business, older girls in QF houses tend to be doing too much for their age. Maybe watching their mother finally say "no" and regain her independence, they are trying to follow by refusing their chores? That they weren't allowed to say "no" before and are learning the word way later than when most children do-- as toddlers. Anyway... it sounds chaotic now, but I'm sure it will get better! Congrats to philosophia for gaining custody! oh, and I dunno if it's a good idea anyone's referring to this girl as a "b&*ch" because if she internalizes that label... i will both be very damaging to her as well as making her feel like to change her behavior would be to negate who she supposedly is.... I guess that's my pop-psych talking but still.
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lectio
Full Member
growing...
Posts: 128
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Post by lectio on Jul 20, 2009 23:01:12 GMT -5
((((((hugs))))) to you, philosophia. You go! You can do this. You really can. I wish I lived nearby so I could bring over a couple cassarole dishes and help out or something. Since I'm not, I'll just send you this little note letting you know you have a cheer squad and we're cheering.
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Post by arietty on Jul 21, 2009 0:45:14 GMT -5
There's a lot of things we gave up in the aftermath of my ex-husband leaving and the whole QF lifestyle going out the window.. things like saying Grace, monitoring how much time the tv was on, baking all our own bread.. and kids doing chores. In the aftermath of this lifestyle upheaval they did absolutely NOTHING. A lot of stuff didn't get done. A lot of stuff STILL hasn't gotten done 10 years later, LOL. But somehow it worked for me, I had finally gotten the tyrant off my back and I no longer wanted to be on my kids backs about doing housework of any kind. Homework, sure. That was it. I don't know, I just think they needed a huge huge break and the mental and physical space to just do nothing or pursue their own enjoyments.
Philosophia my daughter was exactly the same as yours. It was emotional incest and it only got worse when he spent every hour of access with her sobbing about how evil I was and telling her how much he needed her support. I know how hard it is but you know she absolutely hates his guts now for it. We are now very close (she is an adult now). She recognizes the extreme emotional abuse he put her through. Just let her be mad at you, be the one that she is free to act out with because in the end what she gets from that is that she is free to be herself with you.
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Post by sargassosea on Jul 21, 2009 5:18:09 GMT -5
Oh, fantastic! It sounds as though your 15 yo is very bright - once she gets the idea that she is free to be that autonomous, vibrant young lady she is, there'll be no turning back ::wishing there was something more I could do::
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aimai
Full Member
Posts: 172
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Post by aimai on Jul 21, 2009 7:13:34 GMT -5
Philosophia, I'm very happy for you that you've made such a huge step on your journey to a new life—one small step for you, one giant step for your children. Its bound to be hard—hard on all of you. And even more to the point, you are bound to feel angry with them and they with you. I don't have any been there and done that sort of advice but Molly over at Adventures in Mercy, who writes as Lectio (I think) over here, has a great post on the topic of loving your children, as she imagines g-d loves us all, especially with all their rages and their dissatisfactions. I highly recommend it as its a joyful, funny, read. adventuresinmercy.wordpress.com/2009/07/05/the-you-are-stoopid-love-and-why-it-wins/But on a more practical, atheistical note. Your daughter is 15. Now is a great time to tell her that the world is her oyster and anyone, mother or father, who tries to tie her down to being a helpmeet and an emotional support, is simply taking away from her “me” time. Time that she needs to prepare herself for work, for love, for friends outside the family. Tell her that despite the younger kids you know that she needs time for herself and her new, evolving, school and work life. Offer to help her sign up for a course at a local library or community college, or offer to host a group of her school friends for a little party. Show her that living with you in your new life is much more satisfying than being daddy's main support. Because ultimately it will be more satisfying. Just stand firm and keep saying, sympathetically, “I know how hard this is for all of you. The one thing I promise you is that if someday you make a choice you regret with your lovers or friends, I'll stand by you the way I hope you will stand by your father and me. We each need your love and friendship. I'm choosing one way: letting you experience and own the world for yourselves. He's choosing another way. But the great thing is that you will, ultimately, get to choose for yourselves.” And leave it at that. She will come around. She, and you, will have a stronger relationship eventually. aimai On the subject of chores I suggest that you need to draw up a responsible, short list of things that have to be done and share them out without apology.
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Post by rosa on Jul 21, 2009 8:04:03 GMT -5
Just a note of encouragement - my little brother and my mom had a *lot* of anger in their relationship when he was a teenager (not me - nobody was allowed to be angry but my dad, and I left for college less than a year after he moved out) and they are way closer now because of it. It was really scary for me the first few times I went home and they were having a shouting match, because I associated anger with violent threats, but when I found my own relationship where I could be loud and angry, it was really good for me, too.
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