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Post by sargassosea on Nov 4, 2009 17:37:55 GMT -5
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Post by redheadedskeptic on Nov 4, 2009 18:23:42 GMT -5
I'm an alumni.
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Post by stampinmama on Nov 4, 2009 19:16:01 GMT -5
I am SO glad that my parents never had the money to get into Gothard's bull shit. That's one benefit to being poor homeschoolers.
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Post by Heather on Nov 4, 2009 20:28:33 GMT -5
ugh. I remember going to my first Basic Seminar when I was 12 years old. Before that I went to the Children's Institute... Anyway, after my first Basic Seminar, I got "convicted" of a million little things and felt obligated to go and confess to each and every person I had "offended." I remember a story Bill tells about stealing a cheap little toy figurine from the neighbor's yard when he was a kid... and then twenty or thirty years later he felt god calling him to go back to those people and apologize. Wow. what batshit! I'm just saddened that so many years of my (childhood) life were lived in fear and shame and guilt. ATI (we used the curriculum for several years) really scars people. All I hold now is revulsion for the whole organization... which is sad because a lot of the people I know still buy into it. Did you know there's an "official" ATI church where Bill holds membership (though rarely attends)? Well, my parents to this day attend that church. gag. does anyone else find the 7 Steps to This or 10 Steps to That funny? I remember all these lists-- and if you followed them you'd supposedly be In God's Will. ;D
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Post by redheadedskeptic on Nov 4, 2009 21:44:22 GMT -5
omg, I went to Children's Institute, too. I still get those songs stuck in my head! 1, I am one of a kind, 2, for my mom and dad. . . Ahhh! hehe, and yes, live in God's will and be healed! Overcome infertility! Alcoholism! Drugs! Absolutely any problem you have can be conquered if you just follow the right lists! Of course, it's perfect because the lists are impossible to follow all the time. So if (er, when, I should say) it doesn't work, it's because you skipped a step. Or you got back out of God's will. Ingenious, really, to sell a flawed product in such a way that the user blames him/herself when it doesn't work. Wasn't there some kind of sex scandal involving Bill Gothard or his brother or something along those lines? I forget. Something major happened. I think it's been since then that they have sort of faded into the background.
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Post by Annie on Nov 4, 2009 23:56:27 GMT -5
I am following this series with interest couldn't find a comments section under the post so I came here to tell you
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Post by xara on Nov 5, 2009 13:32:05 GMT -5
Ingenious, really, to sell a flawed product in such a way that the user blames him/herself when it doesn't work. I would say insidious rather than ingenious. And just wrong on so many levels. Deliberately setting people up to fail and then blaming them when they do is just evil.
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Post by Uncle Bob on Nov 5, 2009 16:48:03 GMT -5
Just to be clear on the facts, there are dozens of major inaccuracies in this article. Here are just a couple of the obvious ones. "Gothard has become a rich man from peddling his homeschooling program" Actually, although the ministry itself has gone all over the world, Gothard himself makes only a minimal salary according to www.ministrywatch.com"You get to watch videos of Gothard espousing his philosophies of Christian patriarchy" According to his response at www.nogreaterjoy.org/articles/general-view/archive/2009/may/01/response-from-bill-gothard/ it actually appears that Mr. Gothard is not at all a part of the modern "Biblical patriarchy" movement. "He maintains strict levels of secrecy within ATIA and the seminar communities" Then why is the first session of the Basic Seminar publicly viewable online at iblp.org/iblp/seminars/basic/online/ and tons of resources public obtainable from store.iblp.org, billgothard.com, and ati.iblp.org? He has authored at least 20 books.
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Post by redheadedskeptic on Nov 5, 2009 19:14:14 GMT -5
"You get to watch videos of Gothard espousing his philosophies of Christian patriarchy" According to his response at www.nogreaterjoy.org/articles/gen....m-bill-gothard/ it actually appears that Mr. Gothard is not at all a part of the modern "Biblical patriarchy" movement.Out of curiosity, have you ever been to a Gothard seminar? He would not technically be considered part of the Quiverfull movement, either, but just because you call something by a different name doesn't mean you don't espouse it. The videos *do* espouse the exact same ideals as the "Biblical patriarchy" movement, and those involved in that movement (ie, the Duggars) are often involved in Gothard's seminars. I have actually been to several. "He maintains strict levels of secrecy within ATIA and the seminar communities" Then why is the first session of the Basic Seminar publicly viewable online at iblp.org/iblp/seminars/basic/online/ and tons of resources public obtainable from store.iblp.org, billgothard.com, and ati.iblp.org? He has authored at least 20 books. Within the seminars themselves, he does maintain secrecy. Not like the kind of secrecy you would see in the government or in ultra secret cults, but you have to sign some sort of confidentiality agreement before the seminar (or at least you used to, maybe not anymore--I haven't been in about ten years). I don't remember exactly what that was because it has been so long, but I do remember that it was there. Having a sample of the first session doesn't mean much. His ideas get deeper and deeper into lunacy the further you go. Once you complete the first entire seminar, you are eligible to attend his Advanced seminar where he takes you even further down fundamentalism road, but you aren't allowed to attend the Advanced one until you go to the Basic one. There is some level of secrecy there. Over time, his ideas have leaked out a bit thanks to the Internet. I wouldn't be surprised if he posted it online to demonstrate that his ideas aren't so controversial. They are, though, just not quite so much on the first night. I don't know how much money he makes because I couldn't find it on the link. What I did find was that they paid over $3 million in salaries, tax free. I don't know how many employees they have, but certainly not so many that he is making a "minimum" salary. Also, any salary the ministry paid him more than likely wouldn't include money and royalties received from book and curriculum sales. EDIT: I did find the quote on the ministry watch page that claimed he only made a minimum salary, but that was what a supporter said, not an official statement from the ministry. Even if you could find that he wasn't making very much, anyone in the ministry knows there is more than one way to define "salary."
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Post by km on Nov 6, 2009 9:59:24 GMT -5
Thank you, redheadedskeptic, for clearing this stuff up. I'm sorry that I haven't been here to participate. I've had a family emergency over the past few days, and currently have very limited internet access.
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Post by redheadedskeptic on Nov 6, 2009 10:08:22 GMT -5
oh, I hope everything is okay/gets better, km.
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