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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Nov 5, 2009 18:23:25 GMT -5
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torgo
New Member
Posts: 7
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Post by torgo on Nov 5, 2009 20:01:05 GMT -5
I had no idea John Piper could be that stupid. I knew what he believed about submission, but his answer to that question was...well, dumb. Seriously. What was with that nonsense about group sex? How could that be worse than slapping your wife around? I just posted about it on my blog.
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Ella
New Member
Posts: 13
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Post by Ella on Nov 5, 2009 20:26:58 GMT -5
If only all churches were to be so kind as to actually beleive the wife in the first place and not blame her for the abuse. That seems to happen all too often. Also, I have to wonder how the church disciplining the man would make him stop the abuse. If he's abusive to her already it seems as though it would just make him more mad. The only way I can see it working is if she stays 24/7 with someone else, but then the wife would still be forced to go back eventually. Then what?
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Nov 5, 2009 21:40:54 GMT -5
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Nov 5, 2009 23:06:57 GMT -5
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Post by jadehawk on Nov 6, 2009 3:21:38 GMT -5
I had no idea John Piper could be that stupid. I knew what he believed about submission, but his answer to that question was...well, dumb. Seriously. What was with that nonsense about group sex? How could that be worse than slapping your wife around? I just posted about it on my blog. don't you know? sex is THE WORST THING IN THE WORLD!!!!! I can't believe how dismissive he is of violence against women, and then manages to say these horrible things in such a cheery, friendly, likable way!
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Post by jadehawk on Nov 6, 2009 3:28:50 GMT -5
I really liked the report... but I have to say that to anyone who doesn't know anything about quiverful, the story is your word against a pastor; and just like with police officers, a pastor's word counts for more than the word of us mere mortals. so, to your average christian this might look like you're claiming things that aren't true, and the pastor is refuting them (because of course a pastor wouldn't be the one who's lying or evading, right? ) --------- on a different note, I didn't realize how much Angel and Vyckie look alike until I saw them both talking. their mannerisms and ways of talking are so similar, they look almost like clones!! ;D also, I like how that missing "u" is not a typo.
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Post by stampinmama on Nov 6, 2009 8:15:37 GMT -5
I hate when these pastors dodge questions when they're put on the hot seat. ugh!
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Post by whatkindofwoman on Nov 6, 2009 11:48:37 GMT -5
I played the Piper video for my husband last night--with no introductory commentary. I just wanted to know what he would think. (My husband enjoys listening to Piper's sermons--lots of 'em on his ipod)
The second he heard Piper say "maybe she endures getting smacked around for one night", he looked up from the ipod solitaire game he was playing and said,
"No she doesn't! She gets the hell out of there and calls the police!"
When Piper said "then she seeks help from the church", my husband said "no, she seeks help from the POLICE!"
He was a touch aghast that Piper teaches such a thing.
And my heart was warmed that he responded so vehemently against "endures getting smacked around for one night".
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Post by aussiemama on Nov 6, 2009 16:38:28 GMT -5
The one thing I hate is how home birthing is discounted. It may not be for everyone, but some of us are responsible home birthers who employ LICENSED midwives and have wonderful births. I just wish it weren't bashed quite so much, because it seems like most of you would love to make it illegal you talk about it with such hatred.
My last home birth was an UNplanned unassisted home birth. We had a midwife, we were getting treatment, and I was even in the hospital twice when my pregnancy turned high risk. In the end the doctor at the hospital who was foreign, told me it was ok to go home and try to have the baby when he was ready. When he finally came, I was in labour less than four hours, and I delivered the baby myself because the midwife was still on her way and was about 15 minutes from my house. She arrived in time to deliver the placenta. My baby was ten pounds.
However I do think there is a difference between those of us that employ midwives and those that have totally unassisted births.
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Post by jadehawk on Nov 6, 2009 17:04:43 GMT -5
The one thing I hate is how home birthing is discounted. It may not be for everyone, but some of us are responsible home birthers who employ LICENSED midwives and have wonderful births. I just wish it weren't bashed quite so much, because it seems like most of you would love to make it illegal you talk about it with such hatred. My last home birth was an UNplanned unassisted home birth. We had a midwife, we were getting treatment, and I was even in the hospital twice when my pregnancy turned high risk. In the end the doctor at the hospital who was foreign, told me it was ok to go home and try to have the baby when he was ready. When he finally came, I was in labour less than four hours, and I delivered the baby myself because the midwife was still on her way and was about 15 minutes from my house. She arrived in time to deliver the placenta. My baby was ten pounds. However I do think there is a difference between those of us that employ midwives and those that have totally unassisted births. the problem with home births in the U.S. is that the medical system isn't set up for healthy, safe home births. Women who want this to become an option need to fight to change the system so it becomes safer. Right now, in too many states, it's too dangerous to attempt because in some states, there AREN'T certified midwifes who are legally allowed to assist with homebirths, and you're not going to get your GP or your OB/Gyn to pa a house-visit either. OTOH, in other countries (most notably the Netherlands), home births are standard and perfectly safe, because their system is well equipped to handle that. Doctors make home visits, midwifes are well-trained, certified, and very common, and hospitals are rarely far away. So, it's not that home births per-se are bad. But the U.S. system makes them more dangerous than hospital births, which is unfortunate.
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Post by aussiemama on Nov 6, 2009 17:40:46 GMT -5
Jadehawk, do you have any legitimate evidence that assisted home birth is any more dangerous than hospital birth, or are you just parroting what doctors tell you?
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Post by jadehawk on Nov 6, 2009 18:44:10 GMT -5
Jadehawk, do you have any legitimate evidence that assisted home birth is any more dangerous than hospital birth, or are you just parroting what doctors tell you? "doctors" don't tell me anything. statistically speaking though, a sudden emergency is more likely to result in harm or death during a home birth than during a hospital birth in the U.S. system. the infant mortality rate is 0.37 with a midwife in a hospital/birthing center; 0.61 with an MD in a hospital (this includes the REALLY tough cases that absolutely require MD's, btw); and 1.15 with a midwife at home. now, the midwifes you get in the hospital have different, better training than the home-birth ones. which is my point. In Europe, the home-birth midwifes have the best training available; here, home-birth training isn't even allowed in a lot of states. that needs to change, so that home birth becomes less dangerous. Still, even with a CNM, complications result in a neonatal death rate as much as twice as high for hospitals and birthing centers; that, too, needs correcting if we want safe home-births. note that most, if not all, the studies that show that home-births are safe are from outside the U.S, where they ARE as safe as hospital births (or at least safer than they are here). lastly, to say that non-emergency births are the same at home and in the hospital are the same is a tautology. obviously if everything went fine (i.e. there was no emergency), then everything went fine. and you can't predict an emergency; if you could, it wouldn't be an emergency.
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Post by amanda on Nov 7, 2009 9:57:43 GMT -5
now, the midwifes you get in the hospital have different, better training than the home-birth ones. which is my point. Just touching on this one item, I would caution taking the premise that homebirth midwives are less educated than hospital midwives as gospel across the board. Midwifery licensing and even legality vary from state to state. For example, in Florida there are two types midwifery licensure: CNMs, or Certified Nurse Midwives, who have masters degrees and are a specialty class of ARNP, and Licensed Midwives, who also have specific training and state licensing but are not designated as nurse practitioners. You'll find both flavors in homebirth practices. The practice that attended my younger son's birth, in fact, has both CNMs and LMs. For reference: www.flmidwifery.org/MidwiferyinFlorida/tabid/339/Default.aspx
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Post by aussiemama on Nov 7, 2009 11:50:48 GMT -5
Thank-you Amanda, it's weird what people believe about home birthing and midwives.
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Post by asteli on Nov 8, 2009 23:29:41 GMT -5
Jadehawk, I'm really curious where you got your stats, because every recent homebirth study I've heard of, including those in the US, the conclusion has been that for low risk women, homebirth is as safe or safer than hospital birth.
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Post by jadehawk on Nov 9, 2009 2:04:18 GMT -5
Jadehawk, I'm really curious where you got your stats, because every recent homebirth study I've heard of, including those in the US, the conclusion has been that for low risk women, homebirth is as safe or safer than hospital birth. the stats are from the NIH
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Nov 9, 2009 19:57:05 GMT -5
Just came across a couple interesting posts related to this Fox 9 story: pinewoodcastle.typepad.com/my_weblog/2009/11/attack-on-the-family-or-legitimate-abuse.htmlhere's another: heavenlyperspective.blogspot.com/2009/11/someone-got-little-note-from-me.htmlIn regard to the latter blog post ~ I've had it in my mind for a while now to write an article with the title: "Beware the peanut butter in the submission trap: Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church." Or something like that ~ I mean, it really is this promise of a truly loving, self-sacrificial, godly husband that attracts women to the patriarchal model of marriage. This is an argument which Rachel Scott's friend tried to use on me in the hotel bar ~ my response was to say, "So you're saying that as long as he's a benevolent dictator, that's okay ~ we should be happy?" "Well ... yes, of course ..." she replied ~ with a puzzled look that made wonder if she might actually be THINKING about whether this all made as much sense as she'd convinced herself that it does. But, no ~ she managed to stop the thought process as quickly as it had begun when Rachel chimed in with, "When a man loves his wife in that way, submission is not burdensome." OMG ~ I used to believe and teach this same BS myself.
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Post by arietty on Nov 9, 2009 21:45:03 GMT -5
This is an argument which Rachel Scott's friend tried to use on me in the hotel bar ~ my response was to say, "So you're saying that as long as he's a benevolent dictator, that's okay ~ we should be happy?" "Well ... yes, of course ..." she replied ~ with a puzzled look that made wonder if she might actually be THINKING about whether this all made as much sense as she'd convinced herself that it does. But, no ~ she managed to stop the thought process as quickly as it had begun when Rachel chimed in with, "When a man loves his wife in that way, submission is not burdensome." Sounds like a suitcase ad.. just buy the right suitcase and carrying your crap won't be heavy. Except.. we know that is simply not true.
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Post by hopewell on Nov 11, 2009 13:29:20 GMT -5
FYI--Fox 59 is in Indianapolis, Indiana. Minor point, but they do deserve proper credit for the report! Great Carnival--I've been away, so I'm catching up.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Nov 11, 2009 13:37:58 GMT -5
FYI--Fox 59 is in Indianapolis, Indiana. Minor point, but they do deserve proper credit for the report! Great Carnival--I've been away, so I'm catching up. Fixed it ~ thanks, hopewell!
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