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Post by km on Nov 2, 2009 19:56:05 GMT -5
So why weren't these men married before that? Are these the unmarriable ones that no one picked so now they get into the QF subculture and get given a wife? No, that's not what I meant. My sense was just that men could get married later within the system. I mean... Aren't they supposed to be able to provide for a family and stuff before they start courting?
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Post by km on Nov 2, 2009 19:23:15 GMT -5
No it is not common for someone your father's age to express interest. In the FLDS church (mormon sect) yes, but in evangelical QF families, no. They usually match 'em up with a young man of similar age resulting in two homeschooled, isolated sometimes still teenagers getting married. Right, I was thinking it sounded very FLDS. Wouldn't you say it differs according to QF community, though? I mean, I've definitely seen a lot of young women get married to substantially older men. Not as old as the fathers, but a good ten years or so. And that's a big difference for an 18 or 20 year old.
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Post by km on Nov 2, 2009 19:19:00 GMT -5
OH dear.. that is a very disturbing thing to happen. I remember my ex used to reach out and just grab parts of my body in passing, shove his hand up my skirt, grab my breast.. Oh my god. This just floors me. The worldview in which sexual assault is permissible because it's "not sin." Where partners don't talk about what is and is not okay. I mean, did you ever really consent to sex? I just... I'm glad you all got out. And... And... I would like to say something Very Bad about your exes that I think Vyckie wouldn't appreciate because of "the tone" of the blog, so I won't... But I'm *thinking* it.
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Post by km on Nov 2, 2009 19:07:04 GMT -5
Oh, and I think I got five or six stitches into a cross stitch one time too. Fun times.
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Post by km on Nov 2, 2009 19:06:08 GMT -5
Reading the blogs of the older daughters in QF families they all sound exactly the same. It's all craft, cooking and what a blessing everything is. All the favorite films listed are the same, the favorite books. I know, right? Someone *please* familiarize them with decent cinema. I mean, Fireproof??? Kirk Cameron??? Argh. You know, honestly, I can't believe I was ever attracted to this lifestyle. I mean, I have never liked crafts. I once thought that I *should* like them more, and one of my homeschooled friends gave me her curriculum for learning to sew. I was very earnest when I borrowed them, yes indeed, but I never managed to crack the first page. Not that there's anything wrong with being crafty... I know it's useful. Just absolutely Not My Thing.
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Post by km on Nov 2, 2009 19:02:01 GMT -5
I'm looking fwd to reading the rest of your series KM. Thanks, arietty. I'm looking forward to your upcoming posts too.
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Post by km on Nov 2, 2009 18:59:34 GMT -5
One of my dad's friends hit on my sister at a bar once with my dad standing there. Dad's response was "I believe someone has been over-served. This is also pretty creepy. So, now I'm curious about this... Is it pretty common for the dad's peers to express interest in young daughters among QF families? I mean, presumably the daughter in question was of age (at a bar and everything), but even so... The dad's friends? That is just... I mean, being a teenager/young adult is awkward enough. I can't imagine what kind of fucked up dynamic would be introduced if one suddenly had to be worried about the dad's older friends wanting to court. Just... Ew...
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Post by km on Nov 2, 2009 18:53:43 GMT -5
This guy was my age, and knowing my dad, he was probably the only person I would ever get to court who was even close to my age. I’d better get this one or else be willing to court one of the many of my dad’s friends who were already asking for the privilege. This is really creepy, Angel. Ugh... So, these were, like, people in their 30's and 40's expressing interest in someone who was underage? Ugh ugh ugh... My sincerest sympathies. And I'm glad that, even in the midst of all that, your mom was on your side about Michael. When I first started hearing about courtship around the age of 13, it never really occurred to me quite how easily young girls could be coerced into relationships that they weren't interested in/ready for. I mean, I heard Jonathan Lindvall say that girls had "veto power" on the tape and everything, hah! I wasn't highly immersed in the lifestyle, and I heard about such an idealized version on the tapes. But just a cursory glance at most of the biggest QF websites these days suggests that it's not that unusual for underage girls to at least be engaged. I wouldn't have been very excited about a guy who never read fiction or who thought women's make-up should be regulated either... Yuck. I'm just glad your mom was able to stand up to your dad at times like that and that you didn't get coerced into a terrible marriage.
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Post by km on Nov 2, 2009 18:23:51 GMT -5
Well, whatever... You can just say it's my fault.
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Post by km on Nov 2, 2009 18:22:51 GMT -5
Does anyone actually teach that older sons fill the role of the missing father? Yes.
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Post by km on Nov 2, 2009 18:21:53 GMT -5
The hand-on-breast thing was such a "little" thing, you know...but it wasn't little. It was representative of the way he thought about me, about marriage, and it would go on and on... Actually, it made me worry how bad things ended up getting, since that was literally how you started out.
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Post by km on Nov 2, 2009 18:18:34 GMT -5
No no, I really remember seeing the Eagles interviewed and talking about what Hotel California is about. It *really was* about a Satanic group that Don Henley knew of at the time. So, I think that's kind of the *one time* in which it's not a misinterpretation.
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Post by km on Nov 2, 2009 14:45:02 GMT -5
But as I alluded in the post, I also have trouble with the fact that this show is done in such a bloody apolitical way. I mean, *why* doesn't the film crew examine ATIA's teachings more critically? I honestly don't think the family speaks for itself. How could you know that they've been influenced by a guy who thought LGBT people should be executed at the hands of the Christian theocratic state (Rushdoony)? I mean, they don't really talk about it. They mostly discuss things in ways that show them in a very positive light. So, why can't the team that produces this show take a more documentary-like approach and do some of their own investigating? It gives me chills when I run into progressive people who comment about how much they like the Duggars because of how kind and quaint and loving it all seems.
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Post by km on Nov 2, 2009 14:41:17 GMT -5
They are nice, but they are kind of robots. On television, you don't see one of them with an original thought different from what their parents think. But that's okay, because individuality is not from God, right? :S Yeah, I agree. Although I would say... Having taught college level courses and been through college some time ago, I would say that *many* young people tend to agree with their parents about almost everything at least until they're a couple of years into living apart. The Duggars and QF families show us an extreme form of discouragment, but I don't think we're great at fostering independent thought as a society. I also find it troubling that *more* people don't find this objectionable in the show. Anyway... For a televised family like that, I would think the pressure would be even stronger than what many have described here about the pressure to keep up appearances. And I have to wonder how many of them will eventually escape? *I* could not last very long in a family that thinks Fireproof is the greatest achievement in film of the past ten years or so, but then... I never fit in anywhere very easily.
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Post by km on Nov 2, 2009 14:35:11 GMT -5
Oh, I'd love to read the post. Could you post a link here?
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Post by km on Nov 2, 2009 14:33:09 GMT -5
Anyway... Sorry, I have a lot of thoughts on this topic. Now, I'm a pop culture fanatic. I subscribe to Entertainment and Rolling Stone, and I make sure I know what's going on now. I dislike the Twilight series because they're poorly written, not because I have no idea what they're about. And I *love* television, absolutely love it. I would write for television if I could (maybe some day I will). I love silly television (like Bones) and violent television (like Sons of Anarchy on FX) and Scifi (Damnit, Dollhouse ratings are down this season! What if they cancel? To rent or not to rent that new BSG straight-to-DVD movie?) and John Stewart and Stephen Colbert and... I just love TV. And I wonder what my family and family friends were all so scared of?
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Post by km on Nov 2, 2009 14:28:11 GMT -5
And I completely missed out on the movies other kids my age were seeing--The Breakfast Club, Pretty in Pink, etc. I saw them all as an adult, and the thing is, they just aren't as great when you're not at the right age. When my peers express such love/nostalgia for those movies, I just smile and nod.
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Post by km on Nov 2, 2009 14:25:42 GMT -5
so, I have a spelling question... I notice that a number of you are spelling the word as "Quiverful" with just one "l." I do it with two. I was thinking 2 along the lines of having a "full quiver." Is that wrong?
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Post by km on Nov 2, 2009 14:20:04 GMT -5
So does Dirty Dancing when you see it for the first time in your 20's. It just seems stupid, as in, "wtf?? Nobody puts Baby in a corner??? Who wrote this dialogue?"
We were so caught up with listening to evangelical music that I didn't share my generation's love for Michael Jackson either. I mean, he kinda wrote the soundtrack of the '80's... You couldn't go to the mall and *not* hear his music, but still... I feel like I missed a lot.
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Post by km on Nov 2, 2009 14:18:13 GMT -5
I agree that the Star Wars movies lose something when you see them for the first time at least a couple of decades later, as I did as well...
And I *love* Hotel California, though I think it really is about some Satan-worshipers that one of the members took up with for a while... I'm not bothered by that, but I know that that particular song makes a lot of Christian Right people squirm. To me, it just sounds like summer.
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Post by km on Nov 2, 2009 11:59:59 GMT -5
Ahahaha... You should write a whole blog in that voice.
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Post by km on Nov 2, 2009 11:55:25 GMT -5
Ugh. Didn't he have any respect for you? I understand guys wanting to play, but enough is enough. But it's not play if it's unwanted. It's assault.
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Post by km on Nov 2, 2009 9:29:09 GMT -5
So, this is something that I'm always curious about because my own parents sheltered me from much of what was happening in popular culture during their charismatic years... Do some of you find that you're missing entire eras of what happened in popular culture? For me, it's the '80's and early '90's that are totally missing from my consciousness. So, I often come up blank when people my own age make cultural references to things that happened during those years. And I *still* get on my parents for not letting me watch Dirty Dancing when it was The Big Thing that all the kids in school were talking about.
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Post by km on Nov 1, 2009 23:33:18 GMT -5
By the way, as a kind of First Amendment fanatic, it always scares me when people become *violent* toward books and media. Maybe it's just that I was scarred early on from images in Fahrenheit 451 or 1984, but... Let's just say I worried when masses of people started destroying Dixie Chicks' CD's. That kind of paranoia can't be good for individuals, let alone for societies.
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Post by km on Nov 1, 2009 23:22:59 GMT -5
As most fundamentalists are taught, if it’s not good for you, then it’s not good for anyone. Instead of selling those albums, they had to be destroyed. Lately, I've been trying to sell all my music from the fundie years on E-bay and wondering how that rule works in retrospect. If it's not good for me, then... Well, I'd rather make a buck. My dad did the exact same thing in college. He had original Beatles records that would likely be worth a small fortune now. Makes me sick to think about that now. (A clarification: I've said I didn't grow up QF, and I didn't... My parents went through fundie phases, though, that started in their college years and lasted through my early childhood.)
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