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Post by kiery on Aug 29, 2010 11:07:28 GMT -5
That totally happened. Actually I tried algebra, never stuck, and so we did "consumer math" instead. To this day, I really regret not just pushing through (but we never found anything that worked, because for some reason video teachings hadn't dawned on us or we thought they were bad at the time). My parents said all the time, it mattered more that we knew about God and the basics than anything else (like higher science, higher maths - at least for girls, who don't need it -, etc). Education became more of a religious thing, even though when they were going to homeschool me, it was originally for academic reasons. My brother recently graduated (at 16/17 also) and my mom informed me that he has a non-college diploma - in real people speak, he hasn't taken any of the classes he needs if he ever had the inclination to go to college, except for maths. No foreign language, higher writing, or anything like that. His destiny is in trade, apparently, like my dad....who pastors on the side.
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Post by kiery on Jun 10, 2010 10:23:01 GMT -5
(((HUG))) omg. soooo sorry!
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Post by kiery on Jun 9, 2010 17:14:20 GMT -5
I have no doubt that there are kids like that being born into it, I think most QF people just avoid them or they're more sequestered to keep from passing it on to others. Like a QF version of a quarantine or psych ward. I mean, as far as exposure goes I think the families try to keep imperfection well hidden, and the families who know about it stay away to keep their kids from getting "influenced". I know we avoided families with "bratty", "worldly", or "rebellious" children as much as possible.
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Post by kiery on Jun 8, 2010 12:53:50 GMT -5
I think "those kids" are the ones that are pointed out to us as rebellious and their parents usually try to punish them or squelch it out of them - pulling parents/god/authority cards. If not then we usually avoid families with those "problems" and their children with "bad attitudes".
So I never really saw any families where the kid was like raise your own...it's like destroyed, not that it doesn't exist it's just other people avoid them until they're back in line and the kid is taken care of.
I really really did want to tell them to take care of their own kids but I was shot (and shut) down every time I got close.
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Post by kiery on May 28, 2010 9:21:00 GMT -5
I wonder if that happened with my family....if my dad just went along with it. I'm not sure since they both seemed pulled into it together, but my mom is definitely not the submissive one.
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Post by kiery on May 3, 2010 14:47:55 GMT -5
It wasn't confusing until I started recognizing the disconnects. It was okay for me to go and debate talking points from my dad and Rush Limbaugh, but it was bad for me to defend someone who didn't agree with or respond to my parents emails right away.
Before that though, I was great - they could send me where-ever with their talking points and I'd fire away. I was an arrow supposed to pop well rounded bubbles, you know. Because well-rounded was bad.
...I'm rounding out now, it's definitely a more complete view imo.
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Post by kiery on Apr 23, 2010 15:57:31 GMT -5
I feel like I should clarify - we always had the addition of "unless someone asks you to sin" but they would never "ask us to sin". My dad wasn't abusive and so though there was no real danger in that sense in my family, but I know it was totally there for other people.
I just don't want to like, misconstrue anything because while we had to do what they asked/told, and sometimes it was ridiculous, there was never a sense that they'd ask us to do something...wrong (like, in a major sinful sense, not a raise my kids sense) or put us in a position where we were physically/sexually vulnerable - and we could tell other adults no (and run/scream/kick/bite/scratch/aim low) if they tried to do something like that (which never happened - but my mom was abused by someone growing up...at least once, so I think that's a big reason they were really into the whole not putting us there and being able-to-get-out-of-there-if-it-should-happen deal).
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Post by kiery on Apr 23, 2010 14:05:55 GMT -5
I think Jane is smart and well thought out. She may be preaching to the choir but I understand the need to voice things. The only issue I have, doesn't really have anything to do with Jane, just my own trauma. My dad wrote (writes) very long, very colorful, very capitalized emails when he's emphatic about something. I've seen more than my share of these emails directed at me, my husband, and my in-laws. So, whenever I see a long article with a large portion of it in caps, I start to get a little scared and I've gotten to the point now, when anytime I see something resembling my dad's email/style, I just skip it. Like I assume it's going to bite me - even though I know it won't, because, Jane isn't my dad, still it's the reaction I have.
I kind of regret it, because I think Jane really has interesting things to say, I just...can't get very far...too many random flash-backy things. That said, content wise, I think Jane is really good and it would be neat to see her have her own thread too..then I can work on reading things in caps and get over....that.
-----
Back on topic though - yeah, I don't think they'll go to college, the whole community is way too grounded in college-is-evil or my favorite "girls are going to be wives and mothers, why bother with a college education? you should be training for motherhood" At least that's what my mom told me when I was graduating at 16.
And no, I don't plan on venturing into motherhood for a long time and I've got more than enough training. But maybe, if they get married and develop as their own person (I hope they do) they'll come to the same realization that we have. Maybe they'll find the world isn't as scary as they thought, and maybe they'll even find a home here. /optimism
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Post by kiery on Apr 23, 2010 13:44:46 GMT -5
There's this whole mentality, that your life is simply there to serve your parents. It feels like your personhood and identity doesn't really exist after a while, because well, you're just your parents daughter - they tell you what to do and you (cheerfully ) obey. Because, it's what you're supposed to do. You don't really even realize you're being manipulated and controlled because you're raised in it. Up until you realize that it sucks and there's more to life and not much of what you know makes sense. Then it becomes obvious. You want to do something, you have to ask your parents, they "pray" about it and decide if you can or can't. I wanted to get a job and go to a meeting in Alabama, I had to run it by my parents and then they decided, no, you can't go. They said I could get a job at starbucks and mom would take me, but she was pregnant and I knew there was absolutely no way that would happen. I was about to get engaged, my mom got pregnant the month before, they "prayed" about it and decided no, we *forbid* you to accept and speak to him again. If you try to voice a contrary opinion or say something about how you're tired and can we please stop having kids - they tell you that you're selfish and lack faith. That life isn't easy and you need to get over yourself because they are following God. Essentially, they become God for you. They decide (randomly!) that you do not hear from God yourself, that God does not want a PERSONAL relationship with you and that the *only* way that you will hear from God is through them. If you say that *you* have *actually* been praying about your relationship and they say that they have too, and you have two different answers - theirs wins because they are your parents and God would never tell you (their child!) something different! Because, obviously you are just blinded and can not discern God from your emotions (that you are still trying to find from boxing them up). So, naturally, they, being older (and your parents) will interpret God, and your motives for you. Basically, no matter what the situation (mine being my relationship with my husband) they are God's mouthpieces and will never be wrong. --- Also women are not supposed to work outside the home. Daughter's who have internships must give up the internships to care for their pregnant mothers and siblings (and be cool with it).
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Post by kiery on Apr 23, 2010 13:30:50 GMT -5
"God would not contradict your parents" "if it was really God we would feel that way too" "don't disrespect me!" "you're being disobedient/rebellious" "God says honor and respect your parents - you're not being respectful" "do the *right* thing" (which is, whatever they think is right) "Your father will interpret your motives"
Most of this was said by my mom. We didn't really go to a QF church per-say. Mom was manipulating the whole situation and dad was her puppet - but he was the head, technically?
I guess major use of the words "honor" and "respect" and doing (what they believe) the "right" thing. Made it so questioning, or even just defending yourself really, was disrespectful because you dared to counter. If you didn't do what they wanted you were in the wrong and on a path of losing salvation.
My parents decided when and how much I could cut my hair because "her hair is her glory" or something like that. So, at first I could have it shoulder length and then I became a teen and they decided shoulder length was too short, it had to be below - around my 18th birthday I highlighted my hair, and when I was 17.5 I chopped it off to my shoulders by myself (it looked great btw) and they couldn't really stop me, although my mom was like "you better ask your father!" and I was like, no (so she told on me and he didn't do anything). And then she'd tell people "yeah, he *allowed* her to cut her hair" and I was like um, no, he didn't stop me and I was going to do it _anyway_.
We didn't do dresses only or anything like that, but there were things (like hair) they were insistent about. Also, if they said something you *had* to do it, and pretend to be happy about it. They were mad after I left because I disobeyed them by talking to my (now) husband after they "forbade" me from doing it.
That's another one btw, "I forbid you!".
Hope that helps some....
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Post by kiery on Apr 21, 2010 11:09:06 GMT -5
I think if anyone gets an award, it should be the girls....as well as at least a 2 month vacation, let mom be mom for a while.
With Hillary though - totally, they aren't having any financial issues, and soooo many more live with...very little or don't aspire to anything more than construction jobs. Which is good and all, but hard to support a large family on $18 an hour. I think that's way more common than the Duggar's scenario. But who would want to watch an average-joe middle-class(or poverty level, if you're doing the math for 9 people instead or 4) large family when you could have a rich, seemingly happy large family?
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Post by kiery on Apr 8, 2010 18:22:59 GMT -5
We used it a little in speech class, and I borrowed my debate partner's copy. We also did Chris Jeub, Argumentation and Debate, and Secrets of the Great communicators. Really, it's because I actually was given the ability to learn and use those skills that I stopped buying into it. I developed a brain! Unfortunately, my parents blame _debate_ for my leave-age and my sisters won't get a taste of it.
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Post by kiery on Apr 7, 2010 18:41:58 GMT -5
I did! I might have muttered something along those lines once or twice, but not much more than that...bad repercussions if I did. The few times I hinted at it I got an earful of "serving and trusting God completely" "giving up ourselves and offering ourselves as a living sacrifice" and "having faith" needless to say, the inevitable guilt that I felt after (for being so selfish and/or lacking in faith/trust) basically resulted in me keeping my annoyed thoughts to myself for the most part. The one time I brought up condoms (my mom was sick of being pregnant) I was told "that would be going against God and taking control into our own hands, and they're abortive!" I might have tried to mention something about they don't usually come with spermicide, but yeah.
Although...my mom has her tubes tired now, but she feels horribly guilty about it (she had 2 bad pregnancies both resulting in C-sections and my grandparents paid for the tie-age after the most recent C-section).
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Post by kiery on Apr 7, 2010 13:26:46 GMT -5
yeah, but we skip those parts (seriously, actually, I *barely* remember Pricilla and the others even mentioned...)
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Post by kiery on Apr 7, 2010 11:31:22 GMT -5
I have a few questions, what does the Patriarchal Teachings say about Esther and Deborah of the Old Testament? And what if a girl/woman in this movement expresses that she wants to be single and serve God wholeheartedly as Paul talks about in 1 Corinthians 7? Do they acknowledge these scriptures? In my experience (with my parents) whenever I brought up Esther or Deborah they were discounted (because they were O.T., because there were no men, because Deborah shouldn't have been there anyway and just happened to be, because it was Esther's husband and she still was all servy/submitty, because she was put in that situation, because it was an exception, because the guy was a wimp - but in the end, Deborah was still wrong for being there and Esther was just in the right place - besides queens didn't do much.). As far as 1 Cor. 7, my parents always quoted some verse that sort of supported it? I don't remember the reference but "It's better for a man to keep his virgins" or something like that - but in that, it was basically either staying home and helping or leaving for brief periods of time and coming back home and helping. By helping I mean, taking most if not all care of the kids and teaching them, etc. Being independent is a horrible thing in that circle. Having the balls (as a female) to go and want to do something besides have babies is practically a sin. My parents praised my independence towards the world when I was young and then told me that God didn't like or create independent females when I got older and became truly independent (of them). /random because it was along the lines of the girl missionaries being declared evil by VF and the like.
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Post by kiery on Apr 6, 2010 16:57:01 GMT -5
Starfury ~ this is so sad. I look forward to the next part. Phatchick ~ I used to say that too: "I've done everything except give birth." The challenge for many of us is when we acknowledge how hard things can be is that people usually just turn around and say that we older daughters aren't grateful, don't want to serve, and are having a pity party or complaining. We can't voice our own struggles without someone adding, "Then think about how your mom feels!" And YES, moms are super tired. Honestly, I think most older daughters DID want to serve and help relieve their moms. I know it broke my heart seeing how exhausted my mom was everyday. Exactly! Some of us don't even go there (or aren't allowed to) because of that. We just sort of nod and bury it until it won't stay buried...and then we're even more selfish because mom (who's exhausted telling you what to do from the chair) never gets a break anyway. /rant But yeah, same here. I know my mom wished she didn't she didn't have to rely on me so much but like Vyckie with Angel, she trained me and was too tired to do the others. Yet, she didn't seem to have that much of a problem with keeping things like that either, so it's confusing. Honestly it never really occurred to me that my mom could be hiding too - but maybe that's because my mom was the one who was putting herself under all that pressure, not my dad. Can you be voluntarily pushing yourself and your family into that lifestyle and be masked? Or just a control freak? Maybe my mom's perfectionism is a guilt thing, because she wants to seem awesome and full of faith like the Duggars and friends of ours, so she pushes perfectionism because she feels inadequate? Or maybe it's just that she feels like she needs to control her family because image really is a big motivation for her? I don't know...
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Post by kiery on Apr 5, 2010 20:34:48 GMT -5
(((hugs SF)))
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Post by kiery on Apr 3, 2010 22:27:50 GMT -5
she probably didn't marry for love either...or if she did, it's probably not really there now, if her massive cheat sheet is any clue - where's the part about being happy and friends and enjoying your DH? as opposed to just being accessible and letting him do his thing?
I mean, I'm a noobie, not married a year yet, but my DH and I would hate it if our relationship were like that...(and we LOVE to dote on eachother! it's not some weird task/way of doting on God...)
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Post by kiery on Apr 3, 2010 22:20:37 GMT -5
Wow...Kiery, that was a GREAT comment. I really hope "Mrs. E" listens to the feedback you and others have given. It would be bad enough to grow up with a mom who expected the level of servitude she obviously expects from her children. But then - even as she acknowledges that they do whatever she asks them to do and are obedient - she adds insult to injury by finding fault with their "heart" attitudes...and (arrogantly, in my opinion) believes that SHE can force them to improve their hearts. Bleh. It's scary because *my* parents thought that, and believe that they could interpret my motives and my heart perfectly and better than I could (you know, being me and stuff). When honestly they didn't have a clue, and to this day they still don't understand how it felt to be treated that way. They don't understand why I didn't feel worth anything more than a broom, and they are genuinely shocked when I say that I have nothing against chores or helping (they think I left because I'm a selfish bitch and didn't like to do my chores). I don't think my parents will wake up soon, but I hope maybe, for the sake of E's kids, she'll at least give it some thought...she has no idea how much it means for her to be doing her job as a mother and taking care of her family. Or any other mom's - just being there, being a mom, after putting your kids through mini-momhood really means a lot. My mother-in-law blows me away because she actually takes care of her family, and her daughters help and know how to cook, but they don't run the whole house, and it's beautiful, and there's freedom for them to do their own thing and grow and.....it makes me want to cry...and it makes me jealous...'cause I wish, I had that. On the marriage thing - doormat much?
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Post by kiery on Apr 3, 2010 18:45:18 GMT -5
*sighs* that's just sad. I don't usually comment on blogs like that, but I couldn't sit this one out. I posted anon though but this is what I told her -
I just hope maybe she listens before it's too late.
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Post by kiery on Apr 2, 2010 9:51:21 GMT -5
When I was little I couldn't go for more than 2-3 hours without getting sick, eventually I got it up to 4, but I'm over it now. My family was pretty quick to adapt and carry a waste basket in the car and let me sit in front or somewhere I can see the road (also, they didn't force me to eat much and I really watched my intake). The kids would get it occasionally, but you know, who doesn't once in a while? I think the only other one who (relatively) consistently gets sick on road trips is my closest sister (12).
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Post by kiery on Apr 1, 2010 14:38:29 GMT -5
We were always 5-10 minutes early for everything except going to my maternal grandparents house - in that case we were always late, I have no idea why. Usually we all wanted to head over but my parents were like no, wait and there'd be something we had to do first - usually just on holidays when my uncle and his family came. We usually did road-trips the night before so we didn't have to stop, or if we did stop, we'd leave early the next morning but the kids would have already slept through most of it.
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Post by kiery on Mar 19, 2010 22:44:16 GMT -5
You know they had a long talk in the car about you guys too, right? Maybe even at home... Yay for allowing kids to be normal though!
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Post by kiery on Mar 13, 2010 22:25:14 GMT -5
((((Ruth)))) sooo sorry
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Post by kiery on Mar 11, 2010 23:54:22 GMT -5
I used to be a mod on The Reb forums, and while Alex and Brett don't condone QFness alot of the girls on there have that mindset. Anyway, the reason it's in the title, is 'cause I was a part of it, and in a way, my life kinda was the definition of DHT.
/edit for clarity
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