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Post by zoeygirl on Mar 17, 2010 14:52:34 GMT -5
Two people were playing guitar and we all were singing "It only takes a spark to get the fire going.....". And I just fell in love with the feeling of it. musicmom, this made me laugh out loud. I totally remember that song, and how we sang it at Christian camp about a thousand times.
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jo
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Post by jo on Mar 18, 2010 12:29:59 GMT -5
My father was a secular Jew who became a Christian in the 70s due to jews for Jesus and the Jesus Movement. My Narcissist mother found a world where she could thrive and make all of us give her status and make her look good.
For most of my childhood, my father attempted to maintain a more centrist world and my mother tried to drag us all kicking and screaming into Fundamentalism, Patriarchy and even Quiverful (when trying to get Dad to reverse his vasectomy failed, she convinced him to undergo infertility treatments, when that failed she finally convinced to adopt 5 additional children so there are now 8 children in my family and not the 3 they originally stopped with).
Reading this article is like a walk into my upbringing. Of all her children, I was the one mom groomed for FULL membership into that world. I was to be Quiveful and under Patriarchy. And, to that means, my mother put a wall between my father and I while she groomed me for a world of subjucation and abuse.
In the last several years, mom got tired of that world. Its not as strong as it once was, Christianity itself is becoming more calm again and the RR and Moral Majority is essentially dead, or still dying in agony. The current offshoots are not nearly as wildly accepted as their predecessors and she is no longer interested in that world. Mom had a series of affairs, and finally choose to divorce Dad last summer. She's now living it up in the current manifestation of all that is strong in Christianity---Celebrate Recovery run by Saddleback in CA. Someone let a diagnosed Borderline Narcisstic loose in a room full of recovering co-depedents, imagine the feasting grounds she has found!
So, you ask what do the children want to hear from their parents? I wanted to hear a legitimate, "I'm sorry." I wanted to hear, "I failed you. I let you get hurt and I shouldn't have done that. I love you and I want you to forgive me."
After that, its about rebuilding from the ashes. When he finally shed himself of my mother, I got all of that from my father. In fact, 8 kids (4 adults and 4 minors) and Dad are working to rebuild relationship and family without mom now. There's no more baggage, no more abuse, no more guilt and no more of the bizarre world we came out of. There's just us, some of lost our faith, all are hurting and all are clinging to the fact that we are a family and we're working to restore. Mostly, we're holding onto the reality that we really and truly do love each other unconditionally and that's something not one of us has ever conisdered before now.
Once you can say you made a mistake and you're sorry, the rest WILL come. Its admitting your mistakes and taking responsiblity for the harm you caused that is the hardest part. None of we children think Dad can undo what was done to us, not one. We all know he cannot go back in time and fix what happened to our family. But, that he's moving forward, both in his own life and in relationship with us...its a slow process but its coming, bit by bit.
At this point I'm extremely lucky. I began my exodus about 3 years ago, finally exited 2 years ago but didn't shed the last of the chains around my neck until 6 months ago. When I left, I had my adult siblings who left upon entering college and threw away their faith entirely. But, I had no one else in my family. It was part of the cost it took to escape and claim my own life again. Today, I have all but my mother back. Its far more than I ever imagined I would have.
Mommy dearest was actually diagnosed as a Borderline Narcissist in December--compliments of the court ordered Psychological evaluation in her divorce. Furthermore, she only has visitation rights to the minor children, and come end of April will lose most of those as well as be saddled with heavy child support and alimony payments. In the end, the one who led the family into that nightmare will pay the piper for what she did to all of us. There's NOTHING I want to hear from her, because the fundamental concept of accepting responsiblity for her choices fails her. I haven't spoken to her in years now and cannot imagine a point in my future when I would ever consider speaking to her again.
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jwr
Full Member
Posts: 218
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Post by jwr on Mar 19, 2010 2:57:39 GMT -5
I'm rather overwhelmed and quite grateful for the many responses to my article. It's beyond anything I'd remotely expected. But I need to give credit where it is due. What I'm about to write is not just an attempt to be "nice." On the contrary, it's the simple, real truth of the matter.
Had I not joined this forum last November, it never would have happened. On the surface that sounds obvious: if I hadn't joined, Vyckie wouldn't have met me online and therefore wouldn't have posted it. While that's true, it's not what I'm talking about here.
The article I wrote is the direct result of three months non-stop interaction with the people on this board. One person's idea triggered another in my mind, which I posted. That idea then triggered someone else's; and on and on and back and forth. All the while, my own memories were awakened and new ideas birthed. Finally, in mid-Feb, MusicMom started the thread, "How Did You Get Into This Mess?" Her post was a real "trigger," but in a good way. My reply to it was the final push that caused Vyckie to mention making it a separate blog post, and caused me to expand it.
Without any sense of exaggeration, I believe that everyone I interacted with from Nov through Feb (even those who sometimes sharply disagreed with me and got really pissed) are just as responsible for the article as I. Sure, technically speaking I'm the author. But on a much deeper level, you all are. It's a full group project, not one person's idea.
Thank you all for enriching my life so greatly and in so many ways, and in such a short time. NLQ is, in my opinion, totally awesome and I'm much the better for it!
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Post by musicmom on Mar 19, 2010 7:27:54 GMT -5
JWR,
I completely relate as to your growth on this board. I think the thought and energy bouncing around between the posters is truly divine and I too, have made some quantum jumps in my understanding of what I went through and why. Before finding this board, I just felt like such a stupid loser - single mom with 8 kids who just fell, hook line and sinker, for such an abusive asshole and got left with all the responsibility.
Communicating with all of you wonderful people - intelligent, thoughtful, consciencious, spiritual - made me feel so much better about myself and gave me the courage to explore how this happened to me. I really thank you all - Journey, Arietty, JWR, Astelli, Margy, Dangermom, Susan, Vyckie and even our lost Runawaybride - you have done more for me that I can tell.
I have to give the credit for "How did you get yourself into this mess" to someone else. Another woman at my graduate school classes and I were talking about my situation (because we were doing a presentation on Quiverfull) and although I wanted to slug her, she actually asked me that question. But with a very sincere, confused look on her face. After my irritation subsided, I realized I was asking myself the same question for months, but hadn't had the means to answer it. Now, thanks to all of you, I do.
Vyckie - this site is changing minds and hearts for the better.
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jwr
Full Member
Posts: 218
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Post by jwr on Mar 19, 2010 11:45:00 GMT -5
musicmom, Yeah, I agree about this site. We can learn through lectures and through books/articles. But this kind of interactive stuff brings education to an entirely new level. Because of this, Vyckie could probably charge tuition to join this forum. But don't tell her that or we'll all have to start taking out student loans. ;D
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jwr
Full Member
Posts: 218
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Post by jwr on Mar 19, 2010 12:05:45 GMT -5
Two people were playing guitar and we all were singing "It only takes a spark to get the fire going.....". And I just fell in love with the feeling of it. musicmom, this made me laugh out loud. I totally remember that song, and how we sang it at Christian camp about a thousand times. LOL! Ok, this is really messed up but...this is how I got suspended a week from my Christian high school when I was 16. It was an outdoor-ed backpacking trip. We were in a public campground, several tents and campfires all around. Our small school group was around our own campfire singing, "It only takes a spark..." I slipped away to another campfire about 20 feet away, populated with stoners like myself. I was laughing at the lyrics drifting our way..."It only takes a spark...you want to pass it on..." For us, the spark was the match that lit the joint, and we all passed it on, getting totally ripped. Unfortunately, our headmaster had slipped away from the school campfire and watched me toking joints for 20 minutes or so...and the next week I was suspended from school. Yes...it only takes a spark...you want to pass it on.
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Post by poohbear on Mar 19, 2010 23:28:33 GMT -5
Another delurker. I'm probably one of those secular humanists. No meetings, no nothing. Interestingly, when I heard way back maybe in the late 80s about this right wing conspiracy that was starting with getting rabid right wingers elected first to school boards and then gradually to all other areas of politics I thought it was rubbish.
Amazing that the church-going Christians, apparently mostly fundy b/c I heard none of this at the Presbyterian church I sometimes attended, had no problem believing there were people "out there" trying to undermine Christianity.
Today I am sad that the same argument is going on in schools about fear of evolution being taught and that creationism be taught. But it isn't any creationism, it's one creationism. If they want to teach creationism it should be every creation story from each tribe of the Native Americans, the Hindu, etc. I'm sad that the science and history taught in classrooms is sometimes in danger of not being taught because a small segment of the population, mostly very fearful people, want to have their version of (insert theory here) taught. I live in the Atlanta, Georgia area and about 4 years ago it was rampant here to change one county's schools into teaching Christian creationism.
Rabid fundamentalism of any religion or philosophy does the same thing. It stagnates not only it's members but those outside of the community that want nothing to do with those beliefs.
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em
Full Member
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Post by em on Mar 20, 2010 11:57:12 GMT -5
jwr, I'm with you on that. If not for this board, I'd be wondering how it happened too. When I first found this site, I honestly wondered how a woman as intelligent, well spoken, thoughtful, and questioning as Vyckie could have ended up in such a situation. But after reading her story, it just makes perfect sense now. I've definitely come to understand such things a lot better thanks to all you guys.
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Post by arietty on Mar 20, 2010 20:56:01 GMT -5
jo, it is chilling how people with narcissistic personality disorders end up stars in the christian world. I am very familiar with the dynamic. You can never change these people and in the end all you can do is protect yourself. After I left the church that shunned me was torn apart by such a person, incredibly despite numerous marriages and affairs she was still accorded Star Status because of her supposedly prophetic gifts.. but really it was her ability to emotionally and spiritually seduce people into her world in which somehow her favor was something to be highly sought. And of course there was sexual seduction too, even if not consummated she made a lot of men in weak marriages feel very special, gag.
I hope your dad is in counseling. I had a friend in just such a marriage but he always refused counseling even after it broke down in horrendous circumstances. He didn't like the word "codependent" because he couldn't let go of his bible-faith fear of anything to do with psychology. The sad part of that was it kept his family and his NPD wife from ever getting help, when things went bad they would just move again and never deal with the affairs that she was constantly engaging in. His inability to face what this childhood meant for his kids has left him with not a single good relationship with them, he sees the younger ones briefly now and then and the older ones rarely talk to him. He won't accept or deal with their truth and it just gets too hard to act like these horrors never happened. On the plus side some of them have formed very strong bonds and I hope you continue to experience the same with your siblings.
So anyway.. I hear you.
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Post by arietty on Mar 20, 2010 22:22:44 GMT -5
jwr I wonder if anyone managed to sustain the jesus people god is love stuff.
Some of it I guess is life untested, the naivety and unseen (to the young person) luxury of a life where you get summer vacations to sing around campfires and where you can be deeply concerned for issues without your own mortgage, job, marriage, children taking center stage.
However I do think there are ways of getting back to that simple faith, that devotion to goodness that was so crushed by your, ably described, timeline of the rise of fear and power as central tenants of American Christianity. I believe we (or at least, I) have to step outside of Christian culture to do it. A choice to do good and experience good outside of the programs that make up the church today, to build relationships with those already in your life. To strip away the christian culture and the regulations and the obsessing with end times and all the control needs that go into it (because you have to control the current culture so that it goes well for you and your nation when God holds you to account). To live simply and not expect to always be seen doing so. I personally feel like I am on a somewhat aimless path back to the campfire idealism and simplicity. It is somewhat aimless because no fears are cracking the whip to make me plunge headlong into anything. But I do find lovely spirituality in being mindful of the people in my life, the beauty around me, the freedom to make little choices in my interactions to offer goodness.
Anyway, thanks for the flashback tour. There's a mauve-y pink color that when I see it still reminds me of Dave Hunt's The Seduction of Christianity, eek.
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Post by corardens on Mar 22, 2010 12:59:30 GMT -5
Today I am sad that the same argument is going on in schools about fear of evolution being taught and that creationism be taught. But it isn't any creationism, it's one creationism. If they want to teach creationism it should be every creation story from each tribe of the Native Americans, the Hindu, etc. Yes, THIS! I have said much the same thing, only in jest: "Evolution is merely a theory! What if Marduk really DID tear his mother Tiamat the dragon queen in half?! TEACH THE CONTROVERSY!!" ;D
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Post by Sierra on Mar 22, 2010 13:05:42 GMT -5
Today I am sad that the same argument is going on in schools about fear of evolution being taught and that creationism be taught. But it isn't any creationism, it's one creationism. If they want to teach creationism it should be every creation story from each tribe of the Native Americans, the Hindu, etc. Yes, THIS! I have said much the same thing, only in jest: "Evolution is merely a theory! What if Marduk really DID tear his mother Tiamat the dragon queen in half?! TEACH THE CONTROVERSY!!" ;D I can't resist:
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Post by musicmom on Mar 22, 2010 13:29:30 GMT -5
Sierra - LOLOLOLOLOL!! Thanks for the midday laugh I've watched this show a few times and can't figure out whether I like it or hate it. Sometimes it is so offensive, but at the same time, so funny.
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Post by tapati on Mar 26, 2010 15:27:50 GMT -5
Another related link: surrealist.org/betrayalofthespirit/disorders.htmlExcerpt: My basic thesis is that with cults, it is the belief system itself which is the primary active agent in cult mind control, and the actual controlling of mind is done by believers themselves, as they train and discipline their own minds in accordance with the tenets of their new faith or belief system. The article tries to deconstruct the nature of 'cult-type' belief systems, and to analyze how they differ from 'mainstream' belief systems. - Mark Dunlop and some hope for recovery or cult-proofing one's self: surrealist.org/betrayalofthespirit/boundaries.html
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Volly
New Member
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Post by Volly on Mar 29, 2010 19:00:18 GMT -5
Great post! I never "got myself into it" entirely, by the grace of a stubbornly liberal (now ex) husband, introversion, common sense and a childhood in metro NY City, but I certainly remember all the signs along the way that beckoned to me: "Come on in -- you don't want to sit on the sidelines and be wishy-washy your whole life, do you?" One full-gospel church I attended for awhile had an enormous banner strung along one wall of the auditorium, featuring Revelations 3:16: "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."
Now, no self-professed Christian wants to be "spued out of God's mouth!" And we don't want to be seen as cold. What would be the point of becoming a Christian if you're going to be cold? The pressure to inch ever closer to the line separating strong religious inclinations from fanatical extremism was immense. Of course, this is true of nearly every movement, especially political ones. It seems that in both areas, the one unacceptable answer is "It depends." No! There's only ONE right answer! You MUST take sides! RIGHT NOW!
And then, the pressure starts with regard to your parenting choices. "Wow -- you entrust your precious child's heart to the public school system?" which leads to "Private school is nice for those who can afford it, but if you're a REAL Christian, you're bound not to have much left to throw around after tithing!" The next logical step is homeschooling, followed by the "Above Rubies" teachings. And, as JWR said, the rest follows easily. It's a competition to prove how traditional your family is compared to everybody else. Church becomes a sea of gingham jumpers (women) and wiffle haircuts (men). Everybody's trying to out-grin everybody else.
What saved me, oddly enough, was my divorce. My immersion in Christianity was the last of a series of strains between my husband and me. When we split, we sold our house and moved out of the neighborhood. I joined a Willow Creek-style megachurch, which was slightly less fervent than the Baptist congregation I'd been in for 3 years. I turned cold toward that place when they declined to support my decision to remarry -- they never so much as TRIED to get to know the man I married, and for awhile, he was open to the whole church experience until he sensed the disapproval. From there, it was just a few years before the whole religious house of cards fell, once and for all, and I woke up from the weird dream state I'd been in. After a nice 6-year break from all of it, I joined a Unitarian Universalist church, where I've been happily at home ever since. Ironically, down here in the Bobble Belt, most of the kids in our congregation are home-schooled, because there's too much fundie Christianity being floated around in the public schools!
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