Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Apr 15, 2009 21:56:48 GMT -5
I'm back in the comments section again ~ starting with this post about CONVICTION ~ I think we pretty much wore out the discussion raised by Kelly over the distinction between convictions and preferences ~ and so my interest now is in addressing some of the other important considerations which may not have been given adequate attention while we were all focused on our little disagreement over semantics. As "JEB" alluded in his comment ~ perhaps a camel or two escaped our notice while we've been preoccupied with straining out the tiny gnats ;(
aimai said...
I'm a pretty happy atheist but it also seems to me that there could be room in your life for another god, or another inner voice. One that was your best friend and supporter instead of your jailer.
Vyckie's response: It'll be interesting to see how it all turns out for me, huh? Curiosity makes me wish I had a crystal ball ~ but then again, maybe I don't really want to know what's next for me ~ LOL!
BTW ~ thanks for your book recommendation "Native Tongue" ~ I've added it to my amazon.com shopping cart ;-)
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Jadehawk said...
I'm just trusting, I guess, that there IS meaning and purpose to it all
ah yes... the purpose/meaning thing is probably the trickiest part of being a non-believer. when you have a religion, you have your goals spelled out for you: to go to heaven, to reincarnate into a better live, to reach nirvana, to serve your god/goddess, etc.
when you're a non-believer, you kind of have to make your own meaning/purpose. most atheists I know (some completely disillusioned nihilists aside) go with the motto: "this is your only life, make it count". now, what WILL make it count is up to the individual. here's another (humanist) motto: "live your life in such a way that the world will be a better place for having had you in it".
Again, this can mean many things, but it's basically about legacy. Use your experience and skills in such a way that others, now and in the future, will have better lives because of it. Most people do this for their families, but many volunteer, or work for certain social causes... or write blogs and books that could help women avoid a destructive lifestyle/get themselves out of a destructive lifestyle ;-)
or, as my favorite punk band said: "It's not your fault the world is the way it is. It's only your fault if it stays that way."
Vyckie's response: Jadehawk ~ this whole purpose/meaning thing is really tripping me up. Here's something I wrote to my uncle early on in our correspondence:
[In response to your wondering what I meant when I said there are no consequences to your worldview:] What I mean is ~ what does it matter for individuals ~ for you and me personally ~ if the world is just a big cosmic machine doing its thing and we're nothing but dust and after we're gone it all goes on and who's going to remember or care about one person among the billions who play their little part and then die and it all still goes on ... ? Where is the purpose? Where is the meaning to that? If it's all about "this world" which you say you believe in and nothing more ~ who cares?! How can you have morality if we're no different than animals? Why should it be a horrible thing if one human animal kills or rapes or tortures another human animal ~ we don't say it's wrong for a fox to eat a chicken ~ it may be sad or financially troublesome ~ but it's not wrong ~ it's to be expected ~ that's what foxes do and nobody expects them to behave themselves. Who cares if men go to war and get their minds so fouled up that they'll gang rape and kill an innocent teen girl? Why should we expect more of them? What's the big deal if Americans are imperialistic predators who are all screwed up on foreign policy and making matters worse in the global society? If capitalists consume and destroy the world's resources and cause global warming and destroy the entire planet, so what? If civilization and technology are devastating community and family and creating an epidemic of neurosis so that virtually every person in America is suffering shell-shock and they're all on anti-psychotic drugs and they're shooting school children or drowning their own children or killing their wives and getting away with it and then trying to profit from their "If I did it" books ~ what does it matter? How can you care about me or anyone else if everyone is nothing more than dust with no existence or meaning beyond the few years that we happen to have a beating heart?
How does this appeal to you? What do you get out of such a worldview, Uncle Ron?
I didn't get a very satisfactory answer from my uncle ~ and I guess it's because, having had such a powerful VISION, strong CONVICTIONS, and absolute certainty ~ it is really hard for me to imagine how it would be possible to get along without all of it now ~ I am getting along without it ~ but it does feel rather anticlimactic ... kind of empty ... and ~ dare I say, "spiritless."
Not that I am not having a blast these days ~ it's just that there's a big part of me that wants to UNDERSTAND ~ What it's all about and where do I fit in the grand scheme of things? Mostly I'm okay with not having all the answers ~ but that's usually when things are going good and I'm not really dealing with any major hassles.
On this same topic, Annie C said...
...If there is no heaven, and no hell, and all that matters is *this* life, how would that change the way you looked at the world? What would you do to help?
Vyckie's response: Truthfully, Annie ~ I've been trying not to think too hard about this, because I'm afraid I might get overwhelmed and discouraged and there would be nothing external (God, higher power or whatever) compelling me to stay in the game. Again, I wrote this to Ron:
Honestly, ... If I did not believe in Eternity and that one day I will give an account for my life ~ I wouldn't do all that I do. Why would I? The crap and the creeps of the world have been too close ~ and seeing it all continue in my sister and her children and now grandchildren what else could I do but despair? I am convinced that without God (capital G) and His word to make sense of it all, and the hope of redemption and the promise of ultimate justice and the indwelling Holy Spirit to enable me to carry on ~ I would give up. Only it would never do for me to retreat to the woods in protest ~ because my bleeding heart would be just too overwhelmed. I'd go crazy. And if I couldn't go crazy, I'd put myself out of my misery.
Yikes ~ and now here I am. As I predicted, I am no longer doing all that I did. BUT ~ I've not exactly gone crazy ~ I did consider putting an end to it all, but didn't ~ and I guess I haven't given up ... not quite sure how to explain all of that, but writing about my experience and interacting with all the diverse commenters who are following this blog and offering their input is hopefully a big step towards understanding and processing it all.
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arietty said...
I experienced the same thing Vyckie, as soon as the fundamentalism vanished I lost all that martyrdom drive and my energetic and endless productivity just vanished. LOL.
...I think it is telling that many people come to the end of this in their 40's. Your body is shifting into a new phase of wearing down, peri-menopause etc.. and a lot of things get re-examined. If not re-examined then a natural burning out occurs and some form of breakdown often happens because you just can't live like that anymore.
Vyckie's response: When I wrote to Cheryl Lindsay Seelhoff last year about my experience, part of her response was to ask, "You wouldn't happen to be 42?" Wow ~ how'd she know? LOL
And btw ~ Is there a connection between this age and The Ultimate Question of Life, The Universe, and Everything? I'm thinking of Douglass Adams' supercomputer, Deep Thought, which after calculating the Ultimate Question revealed "The Answer" to be 42. ‹(ô¿ô)›
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ISMist said... I've been reading for several days, and finally feel comfortable interjecting myself into the conversation.
The starting point for my spiritual blossoming (and in my opinion, true adulthood and true growth as a person) was the realization that in most matters of belief there is no possibility of establishing objective truth. ... Rather than be overwhelmed by the vast unknowability of it all, I felt deeply free but also aware of a great responsibility. *I could believe anything I wanted.* So out of all those possibilities, I set about constructing a set of beliefs that I thought would result in me being the best person I could be, with the most opportunity for growth and happiness.
Vyckie's response: Welcome ISMist. Your comment here makes me think of something I heard John Shelby Spong speaking about recently ~ anyone want to "talk" with me about Mr. Spong's teachings? I've been interested for a while now in what he has to say ~ sometimes I think he really hits it, but at least as often ~ the guy gets on my nerves. I can't figure out why he still bothers with Christianity ~ he seems to be trying to fit a highly unorthodox view of God (a non-theistic god ~ what the heck does that mean?) into the framework of the bible and Christianity.
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Kaderin said... the CS Lewis quote has an atheist and a tad mean version: I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen - because I am 500 years behind on my science education and have no idea how the universe works.
Vyckie's response: Ha! Kaderin ~ that's a good one. Hadn't heard it before ~ thanks!
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a.b.e. said...
Christians need in depth therapy and support groups as much as anyone else. And they are a good way to grow up out of rigid belief systems.
Vyckie's response: Well said, a.b.e. ~ I've been thinking that this may be partially the reason why fundamentalist Christians are so dead-set against 12-step programs and similar self-help groups. I'll get into more of that as I'm telling my story.
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KR Wordgazer says,
The honest truth is this: Vyckie's story, as told so far, is confusing and disturbing to me as a Christian-- and, I dare say, to most of the rest of the Christians who are posting here. The questions we ask are largely just attempts to have it make some kind of sense to the way we're used to thinking about our faith. I myself get defensive because it's hard not to be-- because atheists are naturally feeling their views validated by the story, and Christians naturally are feeling their views are threatened. "Just what I would have expected" is the natural atheist response, and to Christians that tends to read like "I told you so." And it's hard not to react negatively to that.
The response of us Christians tends to be, "there has to be some explanation of this that will make sense to us according to our worldview." So we conjecture, without having enough information yet with which to conjecture-- and we end up sounding insulting. What we ought to be doing is simply relaxing and trusting God. But we're human.
The fact is, we're all just human-- atheists and theists alike. Let's be kind to one another.
Vyckie's response: KR Wordgazer ~ thank you so much for this ... I appreciate your candor more than you can know. In fact, it took me back to my own thoughts and feelings of confusion while writing to my uncle ~ trying to fit it all together and understand where he was coming from even though I knew it couldn't ever add up within my personal Christian paradigm. I wrote:
Uncle Ron ... I feel a little foolish for obsessing about trying to understand you. I do have other things to do ~ I could be using that time and brain power to try and figure out what [my daughter's] big problem is here recently or at least I should go to sleep so I don't make myself sick. I could hardly sleep last night ~ and that had nothing to do with my blood pressure. So I ask myself, why do I care what my uncle thinks? And why would I even want to understand your beliefs when I'm perfectly confident and satisfied with my own religious understanding which I've come to by a fair amount of experience coupled with deliberation and it's highly unlikely that I could ever be shaken from what I hold to with no small amount of conviction?
It's not like I care really if you don't believe what I believe ~ though I can't imagine why it all wouldn't make as much sense to you as it does to me. And I do know that it doesn't make sense to you and probably never will. When I said I wasn't interested in converting you ~ those were not just empty words. Part of my belief system is that God is the one Who saves people ~ so if that were going to happen to you it would not be on my account and I don't have to take it upon myself to get all concerned about your soul. And I will also admit to having some universalist ideas of my own (which I've never admitted to anyone besides you ~ why do I tell you this stuff? ~ so just don't go telling Random House about my heresy) and that makes it pretty easy for me to think that you'll be okay whether you have the same religious beliefs as me or not.
...I'm sure there must be something positive about your beliefs because I know you are a caring and thoughtful person who is not just stubbornly resisting belief in God in order to avoid having to be responsible for your own sin and repent and throw yourself at the mercy of the Savior. (That's what the evangelicals believe about the motivations of skeptics.)
You really do need to tell me, Ron ~ so I can understand what you're about and then I can quit puzzling over it and think about something else or maybe even get some sleep.
I can only assume that my assumptions about what you believe are false ~ and I'd be pleased to have those false assumptions cleared up. I really don't get it. You can be so kind and good and generous ~ not mention the way you care passionately about justice and you love truth and I've never known anyone to be so gentle as you ~ I think I know you to be this way, Ron and I've come to admire you on account of these ... oh, what's the adjective I'm looking for ~ godly qualities ~ but who you are and what I think you believe don't add up in my mind so I spend way too much time trying to figure out how to reconcile your worldview with the person you are.
...I realize the danger of how I've been feeling ~ wanting to comprehend your world and agree with you so that we could be close ~ so we could relate on an intellectual level without all these abstract ideas and words, words, words pointing to our differences and detracting from our shared blood and mutual admiration. But I know that I could never apprehend and embrace your world without forfeiting mine ~ along with all the integrity and internal fortitude which I derive from my spiritual life in Christ.
I sure do wish I could get my story written more quickly so that I don't leave you all hanging in suspense waiting to find out how in the world I ever got from there (strong faith, deep conviction) to wherever it is that I am now.
So ~ I'd better get back at it ~ I'm writing ... I'm writing ...!
And now it's your turn ;-)
aimai said...
I'm a pretty happy atheist but it also seems to me that there could be room in your life for another god, or another inner voice. One that was your best friend and supporter instead of your jailer.
Vyckie's response: It'll be interesting to see how it all turns out for me, huh? Curiosity makes me wish I had a crystal ball ~ but then again, maybe I don't really want to know what's next for me ~ LOL!
BTW ~ thanks for your book recommendation "Native Tongue" ~ I've added it to my amazon.com shopping cart ;-)
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Jadehawk said...
I'm just trusting, I guess, that there IS meaning and purpose to it all
ah yes... the purpose/meaning thing is probably the trickiest part of being a non-believer. when you have a religion, you have your goals spelled out for you: to go to heaven, to reincarnate into a better live, to reach nirvana, to serve your god/goddess, etc.
when you're a non-believer, you kind of have to make your own meaning/purpose. most atheists I know (some completely disillusioned nihilists aside) go with the motto: "this is your only life, make it count". now, what WILL make it count is up to the individual. here's another (humanist) motto: "live your life in such a way that the world will be a better place for having had you in it".
Again, this can mean many things, but it's basically about legacy. Use your experience and skills in such a way that others, now and in the future, will have better lives because of it. Most people do this for their families, but many volunteer, or work for certain social causes... or write blogs and books that could help women avoid a destructive lifestyle/get themselves out of a destructive lifestyle ;-)
or, as my favorite punk band said: "It's not your fault the world is the way it is. It's only your fault if it stays that way."
Vyckie's response: Jadehawk ~ this whole purpose/meaning thing is really tripping me up. Here's something I wrote to my uncle early on in our correspondence:
[In response to your wondering what I meant when I said there are no consequences to your worldview:] What I mean is ~ what does it matter for individuals ~ for you and me personally ~ if the world is just a big cosmic machine doing its thing and we're nothing but dust and after we're gone it all goes on and who's going to remember or care about one person among the billions who play their little part and then die and it all still goes on ... ? Where is the purpose? Where is the meaning to that? If it's all about "this world" which you say you believe in and nothing more ~ who cares?! How can you have morality if we're no different than animals? Why should it be a horrible thing if one human animal kills or rapes or tortures another human animal ~ we don't say it's wrong for a fox to eat a chicken ~ it may be sad or financially troublesome ~ but it's not wrong ~ it's to be expected ~ that's what foxes do and nobody expects them to behave themselves. Who cares if men go to war and get their minds so fouled up that they'll gang rape and kill an innocent teen girl? Why should we expect more of them? What's the big deal if Americans are imperialistic predators who are all screwed up on foreign policy and making matters worse in the global society? If capitalists consume and destroy the world's resources and cause global warming and destroy the entire planet, so what? If civilization and technology are devastating community and family and creating an epidemic of neurosis so that virtually every person in America is suffering shell-shock and they're all on anti-psychotic drugs and they're shooting school children or drowning their own children or killing their wives and getting away with it and then trying to profit from their "If I did it" books ~ what does it matter? How can you care about me or anyone else if everyone is nothing more than dust with no existence or meaning beyond the few years that we happen to have a beating heart?
How does this appeal to you? What do you get out of such a worldview, Uncle Ron?
I didn't get a very satisfactory answer from my uncle ~ and I guess it's because, having had such a powerful VISION, strong CONVICTIONS, and absolute certainty ~ it is really hard for me to imagine how it would be possible to get along without all of it now ~ I am getting along without it ~ but it does feel rather anticlimactic ... kind of empty ... and ~ dare I say, "spiritless."
Not that I am not having a blast these days ~ it's just that there's a big part of me that wants to UNDERSTAND ~ What it's all about and where do I fit in the grand scheme of things? Mostly I'm okay with not having all the answers ~ but that's usually when things are going good and I'm not really dealing with any major hassles.
On this same topic, Annie C said...
...If there is no heaven, and no hell, and all that matters is *this* life, how would that change the way you looked at the world? What would you do to help?
Vyckie's response: Truthfully, Annie ~ I've been trying not to think too hard about this, because I'm afraid I might get overwhelmed and discouraged and there would be nothing external (God, higher power or whatever) compelling me to stay in the game. Again, I wrote this to Ron:
Honestly, ... If I did not believe in Eternity and that one day I will give an account for my life ~ I wouldn't do all that I do. Why would I? The crap and the creeps of the world have been too close ~ and seeing it all continue in my sister and her children and now grandchildren what else could I do but despair? I am convinced that without God (capital G) and His word to make sense of it all, and the hope of redemption and the promise of ultimate justice and the indwelling Holy Spirit to enable me to carry on ~ I would give up. Only it would never do for me to retreat to the woods in protest ~ because my bleeding heart would be just too overwhelmed. I'd go crazy. And if I couldn't go crazy, I'd put myself out of my misery.
Yikes ~ and now here I am. As I predicted, I am no longer doing all that I did. BUT ~ I've not exactly gone crazy ~ I did consider putting an end to it all, but didn't ~ and I guess I haven't given up ... not quite sure how to explain all of that, but writing about my experience and interacting with all the diverse commenters who are following this blog and offering their input is hopefully a big step towards understanding and processing it all.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
arietty said...
I experienced the same thing Vyckie, as soon as the fundamentalism vanished I lost all that martyrdom drive and my energetic and endless productivity just vanished. LOL.
...I think it is telling that many people come to the end of this in their 40's. Your body is shifting into a new phase of wearing down, peri-menopause etc.. and a lot of things get re-examined. If not re-examined then a natural burning out occurs and some form of breakdown often happens because you just can't live like that anymore.
Vyckie's response: When I wrote to Cheryl Lindsay Seelhoff last year about my experience, part of her response was to ask, "You wouldn't happen to be 42?" Wow ~ how'd she know? LOL
And btw ~ Is there a connection between this age and The Ultimate Question of Life, The Universe, and Everything? I'm thinking of Douglass Adams' supercomputer, Deep Thought, which after calculating the Ultimate Question revealed "The Answer" to be 42. ‹(ô¿ô)›
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ISMist said... I've been reading for several days, and finally feel comfortable interjecting myself into the conversation.
The starting point for my spiritual blossoming (and in my opinion, true adulthood and true growth as a person) was the realization that in most matters of belief there is no possibility of establishing objective truth. ... Rather than be overwhelmed by the vast unknowability of it all, I felt deeply free but also aware of a great responsibility. *I could believe anything I wanted.* So out of all those possibilities, I set about constructing a set of beliefs that I thought would result in me being the best person I could be, with the most opportunity for growth and happiness.
Vyckie's response: Welcome ISMist. Your comment here makes me think of something I heard John Shelby Spong speaking about recently ~ anyone want to "talk" with me about Mr. Spong's teachings? I've been interested for a while now in what he has to say ~ sometimes I think he really hits it, but at least as often ~ the guy gets on my nerves. I can't figure out why he still bothers with Christianity ~ he seems to be trying to fit a highly unorthodox view of God (a non-theistic god ~ what the heck does that mean?) into the framework of the bible and Christianity.
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Kaderin said... the CS Lewis quote has an atheist and a tad mean version: I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen - because I am 500 years behind on my science education and have no idea how the universe works.
Vyckie's response: Ha! Kaderin ~ that's a good one. Hadn't heard it before ~ thanks!
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a.b.e. said...
Christians need in depth therapy and support groups as much as anyone else. And they are a good way to grow up out of rigid belief systems.
Vyckie's response: Well said, a.b.e. ~ I've been thinking that this may be partially the reason why fundamentalist Christians are so dead-set against 12-step programs and similar self-help groups. I'll get into more of that as I'm telling my story.
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KR Wordgazer says,
The honest truth is this: Vyckie's story, as told so far, is confusing and disturbing to me as a Christian-- and, I dare say, to most of the rest of the Christians who are posting here. The questions we ask are largely just attempts to have it make some kind of sense to the way we're used to thinking about our faith. I myself get defensive because it's hard not to be-- because atheists are naturally feeling their views validated by the story, and Christians naturally are feeling their views are threatened. "Just what I would have expected" is the natural atheist response, and to Christians that tends to read like "I told you so." And it's hard not to react negatively to that.
The response of us Christians tends to be, "there has to be some explanation of this that will make sense to us according to our worldview." So we conjecture, without having enough information yet with which to conjecture-- and we end up sounding insulting. What we ought to be doing is simply relaxing and trusting God. But we're human.
The fact is, we're all just human-- atheists and theists alike. Let's be kind to one another.
Vyckie's response: KR Wordgazer ~ thank you so much for this ... I appreciate your candor more than you can know. In fact, it took me back to my own thoughts and feelings of confusion while writing to my uncle ~ trying to fit it all together and understand where he was coming from even though I knew it couldn't ever add up within my personal Christian paradigm. I wrote:
Uncle Ron ... I feel a little foolish for obsessing about trying to understand you. I do have other things to do ~ I could be using that time and brain power to try and figure out what [my daughter's] big problem is here recently or at least I should go to sleep so I don't make myself sick. I could hardly sleep last night ~ and that had nothing to do with my blood pressure. So I ask myself, why do I care what my uncle thinks? And why would I even want to understand your beliefs when I'm perfectly confident and satisfied with my own religious understanding which I've come to by a fair amount of experience coupled with deliberation and it's highly unlikely that I could ever be shaken from what I hold to with no small amount of conviction?
It's not like I care really if you don't believe what I believe ~ though I can't imagine why it all wouldn't make as much sense to you as it does to me. And I do know that it doesn't make sense to you and probably never will. When I said I wasn't interested in converting you ~ those were not just empty words. Part of my belief system is that God is the one Who saves people ~ so if that were going to happen to you it would not be on my account and I don't have to take it upon myself to get all concerned about your soul. And I will also admit to having some universalist ideas of my own (which I've never admitted to anyone besides you ~ why do I tell you this stuff? ~ so just don't go telling Random House about my heresy) and that makes it pretty easy for me to think that you'll be okay whether you have the same religious beliefs as me or not.
...I'm sure there must be something positive about your beliefs because I know you are a caring and thoughtful person who is not just stubbornly resisting belief in God in order to avoid having to be responsible for your own sin and repent and throw yourself at the mercy of the Savior. (That's what the evangelicals believe about the motivations of skeptics.)
You really do need to tell me, Ron ~ so I can understand what you're about and then I can quit puzzling over it and think about something else or maybe even get some sleep.
I can only assume that my assumptions about what you believe are false ~ and I'd be pleased to have those false assumptions cleared up. I really don't get it. You can be so kind and good and generous ~ not mention the way you care passionately about justice and you love truth and I've never known anyone to be so gentle as you ~ I think I know you to be this way, Ron and I've come to admire you on account of these ... oh, what's the adjective I'm looking for ~ godly qualities ~ but who you are and what I think you believe don't add up in my mind so I spend way too much time trying to figure out how to reconcile your worldview with the person you are.
...I realize the danger of how I've been feeling ~ wanting to comprehend your world and agree with you so that we could be close ~ so we could relate on an intellectual level without all these abstract ideas and words, words, words pointing to our differences and detracting from our shared blood and mutual admiration. But I know that I could never apprehend and embrace your world without forfeiting mine ~ along with all the integrity and internal fortitude which I derive from my spiritual life in Christ.
I sure do wish I could get my story written more quickly so that I don't leave you all hanging in suspense waiting to find out how in the world I ever got from there (strong faith, deep conviction) to wherever it is that I am now.
So ~ I'd better get back at it ~ I'm writing ... I'm writing ...!
And now it's your turn ;-)