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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Dec 15, 2009 11:41:35 GMT -5
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Post by margybargy on Dec 15, 2009 12:14:20 GMT -5
Yeeeeeeeessssssssss! There's no, "I'm done. What's next?". Or "That didn't work out. What now?". There's no contingency plan, no Plan B. And there's no end, no pat on the back. When do you get off the merry-go-round? When do you stop and just be grateful for what you have?
Hey, I ranted, too.
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becky
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Post by becky on Dec 15, 2009 12:37:52 GMT -5
I'm so glad this got brought out to the front page blog. I feel like Jemand totally hit it on the head when she says that satiety and peace are foreign to this lifestyle. Thanks for making that so powerfully succinct. When I read it yesterday, I immediately emailed it to my husband, because I think it encompasses not just the babies aspect of the movement, but how that spreads into the rest of life in QF and generic fundamentalism (even evangelicalism). How pure is pure enough? Should we wait to kiss till the altar? How sober is sober-minded enough? Having a thimblefull of wine for communion is a slippery slope to alcoholism! And heaven forbid we leave an ankle uncovered! Imagine the lust an ankle could cause. *Sigh* For people following someone who said "the truth will set you free," it sure does seem to work the opposite any time they hit on one of "God's truths."
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Post by krwordgazer on Dec 15, 2009 15:39:44 GMT -5
Loved your post, Jemand. Yes, it seems you hit the nail on the head.
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Post by redheadedskeptic on Dec 15, 2009 17:17:37 GMT -5
well said!
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Post by talies82 on Dec 15, 2009 19:53:29 GMT -5
I'm sorry, I have nothing to do with the Quiverfull movement, but I feel so angry when I read about it, that I want to scream. I think if Jesus were alive today he would denounce the whole thing, and pretty much the rest of the supposedly 'Christian' church. I believe in Jesus, but I don't believe that he has been preserved by the scriptures, and the generations of frightened and authoritarian men who passed them down. You can't follow god by following scriptures. God is the voice in your heart, not your head, not on someone else's words on a page. It is the clearest, highest feeling you have about something, and we all know that's the hardest voice to follow. It's the voice that says, say no, even though you may lose this person, even though everything you know may be ripped apart, because this situation just feels wrong. It's the voice of love, that always loves, and holds everything in love, but won't be bent by fear and keeps on challenging us. Love always feels right, if there is any feeling of doubt, then we are living by the dictates of fear, not love. God is love, simple as that.
Anyway, there are so many people on this planet, all struggling for the same pool of resources. And the pool is proving to be finite. By 2050 we expect to have almost another 50% as many people as are living right now. But we have the same amount of land, and the same amount of oil, which is running out. Go forth and multiply made sense millenia ago, but it doesn't make sense now. My heart says that I should see all people on this earth as my children, as Christ did, not just those ones I am biologically related to. Now is the time to make peace between the cultures, among everyone that is living in this world. That is where I think we should direct our energy, towards understanding and care for everyone. Not trying to fight people we don't understand, by labeling them and trying to outnumber them.
We always know, deep in our hearts, what the right thing to do is. It's almost always the hardest thing, because it involves letting go of what we think we know and trusting the universe to hold us. So we need to believe in ourselves! This is a great forum. I am glad to hear so many people believing that they know what's right themselves, and no longer have to bow to fear and oppression.
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Post by angelreneetn on Dec 16, 2009 0:14:53 GMT -5
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naath
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Post by naath on Dec 16, 2009 8:50:31 GMT -5
A kind of related-to-this question:
Quiverfull families say "we leave our family planning to God", what does the movement say about women who can't get pregnant (or carry to term) is there an acceptance that in her case God has done some family planning for her and must have some other plan in mind? or is she shunned or pushed towards invasive fertility treatment? To me that's what would show the difference between "we want to have as many children as God wants us to have" and "we want to have lots and lots and lots of children".
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Post by Jeff on Dec 16, 2009 19:23:00 GMT -5
I found out about your site and your story from a friend who alerted us to a news story that played on the local FOX station in MN. I was surprised to see MY website briefly flashed in the story, so I thought I would investigate your story a little more on your site. I am sad to see that you blame the quiverfull movement on your family problems. Saying that the quiverfull movements was the cause for your 4th pregnancy to be so nightmarish, and that your isolated, conservative decisions were force on you by a "quiverfull" mindset is like me saying I once played college football in the Sugar Bowl and now I have diabetes. The quiverfull philosophy simply says, "We let God plan our family". If HE choses to give us 1 child - we are blessed and our 'quiver' is full. If he gives us 20 children, we are blessed and our 'quiver' is full. It isn't a "numbers game" it is about trusting God! HOW you choose to raise your children is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from the quiverfull philosophy! In other words, the quiverfull mindset deals with HAVING children, NOT in the method the parents choose in RAISING their children. It is just a simple understanding that God is the Author of Life and it is not our place to chose for ourselves how many children we should have simply because He knows better than us. He knows the future and as a result is MUCH more qualified in making these decisions for us. Blaming the poor parenting skills you had/have, a failed marriage, a potentially disastrous pregnancy (thank the Lord your daughter is alive and healthy BTW!! ), and children that felt socially awkward on a philosophy that thinks children are a blessing is misleading and illogical at best, and dangerous at worst. For an example of a family that is truly Quiverfull, please feel free to visit our blog and contact us. I understand that you needed to make changes in your life to help your children become better adjusted socially than the way you were raising them, but again, to blame it on being a homeschooling family that was quiverfull is ridiculous and you are just blaming someone else instead of wanting to take responsibility for your actions. All I am asking is that you chose your wording a little more carefully before you go and condemn a group of people for your mistakes. All the best, Jeff Estes BLOG - homeschoolblogger.com/ourquiverfull Email - ourquiverfull@handsandhearts.com Note from Vyckie: I have modified Jeff's website link so that it is not clickable from this forum.
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Post by coleslaw on Dec 16, 2009 19:33:10 GMT -5
All you are asking is that Vyckie ignore her own experience in favor of your words-that-make-no-sense. How was she supposed to have avoided her "potentially disastrous pregnancy" while letting God plan her family? You are amazingly vague on that little detail. I guess you would have to be in order to avoid facing the truth - letting God plan Vyckie's family was what led to that pregnancy.
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fern
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Post by fern on Dec 16, 2009 19:55:27 GMT -5
I am sad to see that you blame the quiverfull movement on your family problems. Saying that the quiverfull movements was the cause for your 4th pregnancy to be so nightmarish, and that your isolated, conservative decisions were force on you by a "quiverfull" mindset is like me saying I once played college football in the Sugar Bowl and now I have diabetes. Jeff, once you go through a few pregnancies in your own belly, I'll give your words more weight.
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becky
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Post by becky on Dec 16, 2009 20:00:06 GMT -5
Hi Jeff, This topic has already been addressed at: nolongerquivering.com/2009/05/10/dear-happy-full-quiver-er/ and the related forum thread. You may not have initially seen it, as it is an older post. It is easy to put in 2 cents now that Vyckie has taken the time to sort through and exposed everything that hurt her family from trying to be faithful to the teachings she was receiving. However, when she was still using the same practices and ideology, the ones that you breezily declared as obviously wrong, her family had a thriving newspaper business/ministry and won "Family of the Year" in her state. Could you have spotted it then? I don't see anyone on the boards here against people have large families if it is a source of delight to them. And I am glad that your children are a delight to you. However, the vast majority of people promoting (and especially those *making a living* promoting) quiverfull convictions, bring a heck of a lot more baggage along with them. While I'm glad for you that you don't feel that you are staggering under the weight of it, it is either naive or arrogant to imply that it doesn't figure into the lifestyle choices of a very significant number of people allowing God to handle their family planning.
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Post by krwordgazer on Dec 16, 2009 20:26:55 GMT -5
Blaming the poor parenting skills you had/have, a failed marriage, a potentially disastrous pregnancy (thank the Lord your daughter is alive and healthy BTW!! ), and children that felt socially awkward on a philosophy that thinks children are a blessing is misleading and illogical at best, and dangerous at worst. For an example of a family that is truly Quiverfull, please feel free to visit our blog and contact us. I understand that you needed to make changes in your life to help your children become better adjusted socially than the way you were raising them, but again, to blame it on being a homeschooling family that was quiverfull is ridiculous and you are just blaming someone else instead of wanting to take responsibility for your actions. All I am asking is that you chose your wording a little more carefully before you go and condemn a group of people for your mistakes. [/i] [/quote] Jeff, please re-read the above and listen to yourself. Vyckie is not condemning you or your family. It is you who are condemning her. How about choosing your own wording more carefully? Here's a woman who has suffered in ways you can't even imagine, and you tell her she's not taking responsibility for her own actions-- without even bothering to read the posts where she has done exactly that. But she also knows the role that these teachings played in getting her to the place where she and her family ended up. She knows the judgmental, toe-the-line, make-it-all-look-good mentality that you are exhibiting even now. She knows what it did to her and her children. You judge her for her parenting styles, for her "failed marriage" -- were you there? You have never even been a wife or mother-- what makes you think you understand what those roles are like in many, many Quiverfull homes? Do you think hers is an isolated incident? How dare you come in here and lecture to her? Just who do you think you are? I see no humility, no love, and no Christlikeness in anything you said. Siriusly.
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Post by jemand on Dec 16, 2009 20:37:24 GMT -5
The quiverfull philosophy simply says, "We let God plan our family". If HE choses to give us 1 child - we are blessed and our 'quiver' is full. If he gives us 20 children, we are blessed and our 'quiver' is full. It isn't a "numbers game" it is about trusting God! How the hell are you doing anything BUT "just blaming someone else instead of wanting to take responsibility for your actions" here? You are saying, Ah, yeah, I know bio, I know we're fertile, I know the stats that unprotected intercourse WILL lead to pregnancy over 80% of the time... Aw hell, I'll just blame it on god. No need to DO anything!!
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Post by arietty on Dec 16, 2009 23:48:20 GMT -5
urgh.. I will assume Jeff is a driveby and won't be returning to discuss. But if he does return I will be happy to talk with him.
Jeff it's a rigidity of culture and theology which makes for the "bad parenting" you are quick to blame on Angel's problems. I have 8 children from adult to toddler and I know that you have to be flexible. I am very thankful that my theology is no longer locked into conservative fundamentalism. Thank goodness I can see my children thrive and bloom and grow as individuals and not measure every choice they make against a very specific conservative backdrop.
I am interested to know, assuming you are still reading this thread, how you Jeff would respond if your wife said "I really can't do this again, I want this to be our last child." I had a dear QF friend who said those words and her husband replied that if she used any kind of BC he would "throw her out on the street". If you tell me that you would accept your wife's feelings on the matter then kudos to you.
I love my 8 kids. They ARE a blessing. I'm not having any more because I'm not keen on the risks associated with having more at my age. I'm also not keen on the drama and trauma each new pregnancy brings to the family. Who are you to question my and my husband's decision? To repeat, WHO are YOU?
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sarie
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Post by sarie on Dec 17, 2009 4:23:36 GMT -5
A kind of related-to-this question: Quiverfull families say "we leave our family planning to God", what does the movement say about women who can't get pregnant (or carry to term) is there an acceptance that in her case God has done some family planning for her and must have some other plan in mind? or is she shunned or pushed towards invasive fertility treatment? To me that's what would show the difference between "we want to have as many children as God wants us to have" and "we want to have lots and lots and lots of children". I think naath's question is very interesting, and wanted to add a supplemental one of my own. Several years ago, I was almost prescribed a drug that can cause serious birth defects up to four years after it is administered. If pregnancy did not end in miscarriage or stillbirth, any resulting children would have severe brain and skull malformations, as well as catastrophic skeletal deformities. (No joints.) While many QF women are willing to risk their own health and lives (and, by extension, the health and lives of their infants) in order to trust God with their fertility, what happens if pregnancy is virtually guaranteed to end in fetal or infant death, or in a profoundly physically and mentally handicapped child with enormous medical needs? (In other words, the risk to the baby is far greater than the risk to the mother.) Is there any guilt that goes along with creating a situation that is likely to end tragically, or do QF families tend to write it off as serving God? Thanks - I'd really appreciate more insight into this matter.
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Post by margybargy on Dec 17, 2009 6:28:33 GMT -5
I found out about your site and your story from a friend who alerted us to a news story that played on the local FOX station in MN. I was surprised to see MY website briefly flashed in the story, so I thought I would investigate your story a little more on your site. I am sad to see that you blame the quiverfull movement on your family problems. Saying that the quiverfull movements was the cause for your 4th pregnancy to be so nightmarish, and that your isolated, conservative decisions were force on you by a "quiverfull" mindset is like me saying I once played college football in the Sugar Bowl and now I have diabetes. The quiverfull philosophy simply says, "We let God plan our family". If HE choses to give us 1 child - we are blessed and our 'quiver' is full. If he gives us 20 children, we are blessed and our 'quiver' is full. It isn't a "numbers game" it is about trusting God! HOW you choose to raise your children is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from the quiverfull philosophy! In other words, the quiverfull mindset deals with HAVING children, NOT in the method the parents choose in RAISING their children. It is just a simple understanding that God is the Author of Life and it is not our place to chose for ourselves how many children we should have simply because He knows better than us. He knows the future and as a result is MUCH more qualified in making these decisions for us. Blaming the poor parenting skills you had/have, a failed marriage, a potentially disastrous pregnancy (thank the Lord your daughter is alive and healthy BTW!! ), and children that felt socially awkward on a philosophy that thinks children are a blessing is misleading and illogical at best, and dangerous at worst. For an example of a family that is truly Quiverfull, please feel free to visit our blog and contact us. I understand that you needed to make changes in your life to help your children become better adjusted socially than the way you were raising them, but again, to blame it on being a homeschooling family that was quiverfull is ridiculous and you are just blaming someone else instead of wanting to take responsibility for your actions. All I am asking is that you chose your wording a little more carefully before you go and condemn a group of people for your mistakes. All the best, Jeff Estes BLOG - homeschoolblogger.com/ourquiverfull Email - ourquiverfull@handsandhearts.com Note from Vyckie: I have modified Jeff's website link so that it is not clickable from this forum. I think it's safe to say Jeff's a drive by. But I'll write this anyways. Jeff, I read a bit on your blog. My heart goes out to you and your family and especially your young son, Noah. Now I'm going to ask you a couple of tough but (hopefully) very gently worded questions. 1. Your post here demonstrated a complete absence of compassion for Vyckie and her family. Your immediate assumption was that Vyckie was a poor parent. Your very first concern was about anything negative she might have to say about your belief system rather than for the well-being of her or her children. This is a well-established pattern among fundies, and I am always shocked by it. However, I find it even more astonishing coming from you after what your family has been through. It seems as though deflecting criticism of your beliefs is more important than the actual suffering of real people. Would you please be so kind as to explain this? I cannot reconcile this behavior with the claim that your are a Jesus follower. 2. I imagine that managing Noah's care is immensely exhausting and time-consuming. How is the household being managed right now? How are the other children being cared for? Who does their lessons? Are the children being raised/cared for/educated in a manner satisfactory to you? Do you feel that you'll have to play catch-up in the future? If so, how will that be accomplished? 3. As I understand it, you have recently lost a very good job. You are certainly not alone in these tough economic times. Does your homeschooling business provide enough income for you to get by? What about health insurance? Was that provided by your job? How will you continue to provide for your family? 4. In coming here and commenting, you've demonstrated a willingness to at least read opposing viewpoints. Is it possible that you are starting to consider abandoning or adjusting your belief system? This can be done in a face-saving way. For instance, you could tell people that God sent you a sign that you're supposed to stop having kids. Hope you don't consider my questions rude or invasive. Your high-handed attitude toward Vyckie seems to indicate that you are something of an expert on the QF lifestyle, or at least that you're doing it "right" whereas she was doing it "wrong". In light of that I thought it reasonable to assume that you'd be willing to answer a couple of questions. I want to end this on a positive note: I am grateful that the light of reason is working in your life through the expertise of well-qualified medical professionals. May compassion continue to ease your burdens. May the light of reason guide you to a brighter future. May the sorrows of yesterday give way to the joys of tomorrow. Happy Solstice.
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Post by Sierra on Dec 17, 2009 6:36:36 GMT -5
The quiverfull philosophy simply says, "We let God plan our family". If HE choses to give us 1 child - we are blessed and our 'quiver' is full. If he gives us 20 children, we are blessed and our 'quiver' is full. It isn't a "numbers game" it is about trusting God! HOW you choose to raise your children is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from the quiverfull philosophy! In other words, the quiverfull mindset deals with HAVING children, NOT in the method the parents choose in RAISING their children. It is just a simple understanding that God is the Author of Life and it is not our place to chose for ourselves how many children we should have simply because He knows better than us. He knows the future and as a result is MUCH more qualified in making these decisions for us. Unless God personally pops out of the sky in the evening and tells you when to have sex, all you're doing is playing the biological lottery. The only one planning your family is your own penis. There are over 6 billion human beings in the world. Many of them are born to non-Christians, and most of them are born into poverty. Many of them are stillborn, miscarried, or fatally premature. You think God personally decides to fertilize every single one of those ill-fated eggs? No wonder he has no time to deal with the other problems ravaging his creation, like cancer. It's a shame God can't just make the human body function by itself and let people make their own decisions about fertility... wait.
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fern
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Post by fern on Dec 17, 2009 8:58:23 GMT -5
... what happens if pregnancy is virtually guaranteed to end in fetal or infant death, or in a profoundly physically and mentally handicapped child with enormous medical needs? (In other words, the risk to the baby is far greater than the risk to the mother.) Is there any guilt that goes along with creating a situation that is likely to end tragically, or do QF families tend to write it off as serving God? Well according to what I learned, Christians should expect to suffer, maybe even revel in it. Hence the idea of a suffering child becomes not so bad; it's just another way to Glorify The Lawd.
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Post by scottinal on Dec 17, 2009 9:55:04 GMT -5
margybargy - I wanted to thank you for your restrained and thoughtful response to Jeff. It was very convicting. Unlike you I had no desire to read his website. My only desire was to rip him a new one (and I am a Jesus-follower). You reminded me of something I told a friend yesterday, which is that the irreligious in my life tend to be nicer, more reasonable and generally less a-holeish people than the religious ones.
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fern
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Post by fern on Dec 17, 2009 10:25:20 GMT -5
Saying that the quiverfull movements was the cause for your 4th pregnancy to be so nightmarish, and that your isolated, conservative decisions were force on you by a "quiverfull" mindset is like me saying I once played college football in the Sugar Bowl and now I have diabetes. No, it would be more like if you played football for YEARS, kept breaking bones and sustaining concussions, and going back onto the field before allowing your body to heal. But then, as I noted before, the writer has no first hand experience with pregnancy in his own body. Perhaps his God will see fit to miraculously make him pregnant; give the poor wife a break!
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Post by margybargy on Dec 17, 2009 12:10:16 GMT -5
margybargy - I wanted to thank you for your restrained and thoughtful response to Jeff. It was very convicting. Unlike you I had no desire to read his website. My only desire was to rip him a new one (and I am a Jesus-follower). You reminded me of something I told a friend yesterday, which is that the irreligious in my life tend to be nicer, more reasonable and generally less a-holeish people than the religious ones. scottinal, thanks so much for the compliment. That will carry me through the rest of this (crappy) day. I don't know if irreligious people are "nicer". I do know plenty of Christian folk who show lots of empathy and don't feel they have to go into "damage control mode". They put people before dogma. They can look at Vyckie's situation without wondering, "Oh no, if it didn't work for her, where does that leave me?." Jeff cannot afford to just react as a compassionate human to Vyckie's situation. It would be tantamount to admitting something's gone wrong with god's perfect plan or even worse that he (Jeff) is not following the plan correctly (and is therefore not reaping the promised benefits). Can't have that! That's enough arm-chair psychologizing from me. I hope Jeff comes back. I love chatting with fundies. Well, I love to lob questions at them and see what I get back. Usually, it's some convoluted fundie-speak non-answer. But maybe one day I'll get something good.
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Post by krwordgazer on Dec 17, 2009 14:05:52 GMT -5
... what happens if pregnancy is virtually guaranteed to end in fetal or infant death, or in a profoundly physically and mentally handicapped child with enormous medical needs? (In other words, the risk to the baby is far greater than the risk to the mother.) Is there any guilt that goes along with creating a situation that is likely to end tragically, or do QF families tend to write it off as serving God? Well according to what I learned, Christians should expect to suffer, maybe even revel in it. Hence the idea of a suffering child becomes not so bad; it's just another way to Glorify The Lawd. My own perspective as a Jesus-follower is this. There's a point in the Bible where the devil comes to Jesus and says, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down from the top of the temple. It is written that the angels will hold you up." And Jesus said, "You shall not put the Lord your God to the test." I'd really like to know how Quiverfull people explain that passage. And Margybargy-- you're awesome.
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Post by margybargy on Dec 17, 2009 15:29:36 GMT -5
Well according to what I learned, Christians should expect to suffer, maybe even revel in it. Hence the idea of a suffering child becomes not so bad; it's just another way to Glorify The Lawd. My own perspective as a Jesus-follower is this. There's a point in the Bible where the devil comes to Jesus and says, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down from the top of the temple. It is written that the angels will hold you up." And Jesus said, "You shall not put the Lord your God to the test." I'd really like to know how Quiverfull people explain that passage. And Margybargy-- you're awesome. Holy cow! You guys are making my day. BTW, when I wrote Jesus follower I was having an honest-to-goodness brain fart. I couldn't think of the word Christian!
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Post by scottinal on Dec 17, 2009 15:35:57 GMT -5
BTW, when I wrote Jesus follower I was having an honest-to-goodness brain fart. I couldn't think of the word Christian! I prefer Jesus-follower to Christian. The C-word is packed with so much unwanted assumptions and political baggage that I don't really want to label myself thusly.
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