Post by janedoe on Dec 17, 2009 15:51:17 GMT -5
"The quiverfull philosophy simply says, "We let God plan our family"."
Hmmmm, but That's is what is So interesting and Awesome about God,
because if we look at how God plans families, in His Word, and through what we can SEE every day in nature, from botany to animals to even bacteria,
we can see, that God, plans in Order, in 'space' between, even with man and woman, in the Old Testament when birth control didn't exist, even then, God in His Infinite Wisdom, because He IS God, and 'man' is not,
God used timing, through circumstances, some maybe not good, but God knows how to work through things, to space out children, and we know this because Man, in HIS ATTEMPT TO 'BE' GOD, would step Beyond God and marry other women, even using concubines, to 'expand' his territory, etc. God in His mercy, allows mankind to do stupid things--to eventually see, that guess what,
when human kind attempts to PLAY GOD, either through 'lording' it over a woman or 'lording' it over entire societies, especially using birth to do so or 'ending' births to do so or controlling Who can be born or Who cannot be, that little thing we call Social Engineering, those methods that Fascists love to use [and that is what is so awesome about God, in that He allows human kind to mess up time and time again, is that clearly, God is NO FASCIST.
So, anyway, its obvious, that God, knows what He is doing---and well, we could just take some examples of Old Testament Law to reveal that God in no way, Intended for women, to be pregnant every time they turn around, He gave women a 'break' through certain laws, such as ceremonial cleansing, through certain times where sex was to be postponed [such as on certain Holy days] through out the year, through times of prayer and those times during Atonement, etc.,
so in the Old Testament, women, were NOT pregnant all the time, and even in times of war, God gave men that first year of marriage off from war duty [that was what He commanded men] so that there would be time to develop a strong bond in marriage [because marriage was Supposed to be about companionship--that cleaving, that one flesh, not for breeding], and secondly,
because sadly, because of human kind's inability to 'share resources' which is what many wars are over [land esp], and greed [and imperialism for greed still exists today], many men died, so that left many women not having too many children, unless they remarried,
and then, in the New Covenant, once the Old one was replaced, the Old Testament Law to be a 'tutor' for us until the fulfillment and our being ransomed through Jesus,
God allowed that time to 'pray and fast' so that married couples could retain that 'space' for God, because you see, no Husband or Wife, was to EVER, TAKE THE 'PLACE' OF 'GOD',
and so that would provide time between children AND not only that, just the great commission in itself, to be in Service, To God, not to 'sex' would also mean, giving lots of time for that, which would mean less time to be pro-creating, etc., after all, we were not to be 'saving our lives' but 'losing them for Jesus AND the Gospels sake, meaning, giving of our selves to 'others' not just to those who 'are in our circle' so that Others may come to know Christ, and that takes time, why Paul told Timothy, not to be 'ensnared with the entanglements' of this world, because they become conflicts, we are not 'of' this world, etc., and that is also why Paul recommended, not 'demanded' that if one could, to remain Single [and he said this to Women too] because to be married, would cause problems in the 'flesh' which means, that being torn between two duties, one to family, one to God and to His kingdom, and never, did the Bible say, that we, men OR women, and in fact that includes married women, were to shun their responsibilities to service to Christ--just because they were married so That in itself,
such as serving the Poor [a command btw, for both Men and Women, see Timothy and the directions on caring for widows, married women were Expected to work for Jesus, not just breed babies and be 'sex slaves-and slaves to the husband, remember, he is not to take place of God',
reaching out to comfort the afflicted [commanded to both men AND women], ministering to the Saints [commanded to both men AND women], praying for 'others' without ceasing [commanded to both men AND women], witnessing [commanded to both men AND women], and so forth,
you know, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give water to the thirsty, visit those in prison, etc etc etc, relieve the afflicted,
and you know, in our world, there are just Numerous ways, to minister and both men AND women, married were commanded to Do so, SO if, we were to Just obey those, in of themselves,
well, then I suppose that means, we would be then required, as the Stewards we are supposed to be, to pray for Wisdom, to know the perfect Will of God, and to be responsible and to maybe, be a bit more careful, in planning children,
to maybe, not just 'leave it up to biology' but to pray for wisdom and discernment, maybe even using [if one is opposed to birth control] natural methods, such as spacing or as Paul said, in agreement for a consent of time for fasting and prayer, for service, etc. BTW, that defrauding one another, is NOT about 'obligatory sex', marital rape IS a sin, so is submitting to rape, so is Love with Hypocrisy, [and if one was to read the Judaic laws on marriage, the contracts that are required between man and woman, intimacy required honesty--including not forcing or demanding sex from a bad state of heart--that would be a form of Fraud],
and fraud is just that--fraud, that means, if one demands sex, with selfish intent [in defiance of the Lord's command to love and think more highly of another and to SERVE rather than be served and to reconcile IF you have made or offended one, that includes, yes, the spouse, wife], well, to be 'selfish', abusive, in any way, in a marriage, is Fraud, that is what that means, do NOT defraud one ye another...fraud comes in Many forms. [God hates lies, and so love that is not truly love, is a lie]
So well anyway, my point is, if it is to 'leave' it up to God, then I suppose, if that be the case, then one would want to be Sure, that they would seek Wisdom, on what God would want--based on Who God is,
and how God does things. To not do so, is foolishness, its not that we are to just 'leave' things up to God, such as like one would do with 'fate', but we are to Seek God's will--
if you add up All the other things that Jesus told us to do, how in the world, then, could we say, we are just to have child after child after child after child and nothing else? NOT that there is anything Wrong with having many children,
but I've yet to see, Anywhere, where Jesus or the apostles or Paul said, your duty on earth is to have child after child and to live for having children, to just 'leave it up to God' and so forth,
what I have read, is all the other things we are to do and therefore, I would Think, then because of the TIME those things take, that we are to place certain priorities, such as, God and His kingdom first, which was about witnessing and sharing and loving and reaching out to those in need, First and Foremost, Jesus gave us Strong warnings on this, to avoid iniquity, doing Evil to someone, to avoid that, to make right the wrongs we've done, to be SERVANTS, to Love without Hypocrisy, to be Examples, not Lords, then, Then,
all these other things, in our lives, will be added unto you, and in fact, if memory serves me correct, we ARE to have a lot, LOT of children,
but if I recall, it was that scripture where Jesus said, to those who leave wives, mothers, fathers, Children, for me and my name sake, will in this lifetime, receive Hundreds of children, etc. WITH PERSECUTIONS, and so forth...
those children, were Spiritual children.
I don't know, maybe I'm missing it somewhere, but I thought, the Whole point, of the Gospel, was that we are ransomed, saved, by Grace, by Mercy, and that we have a Duty, to serve, by showing Love, by ministering, by giving up 'our' lives, 'our plans', that would include, our ways and 'thoughts on how things should be done' according to Traditions and the Rudiments of the world [culture] and to make sure that Every creature,
hears the good message. Not, nation building through mass numbers of children or this 'just leaving it up to God' -- God commanded Adam and Eve, to multiply and to subdue and to have dominion--with responsibility to do it well--to take Care of the garden, so to speak,
not to just, leave it up to God, therefore, we are judged according to our Stewardship, of HOW we rule--whether we rule/do our works according to God's way of doing things [which are not cruel or selfish or insistent on one's way or demanding NOR are they to be burdensome or oppressive to others], and Jesus gave Numerous examples, of this, in parables.
God does everything with balance--His whole universe, there is an ecological balance--even female animals, space out their breeding,
because God is Wise--'man is not'.
So I don't think--its this flippant 'leave it up to God' but more of a 'seek God's Wisdom [and the book of Proverbs warns of what happens when Man, lean unto their OWN understanding, that INCLUDES chauvinism],
and to seal this....we can then look at God's commands on raising children, one, on this 'insistence' to lord and demand and be 'king' of the castle false teaching--Malachi, God HATES domestic violence, that includes VERBAL ABUSE, and God will punish, those who behave in such manner, and God hates the garment of violence, because God wanted 'Godly children' that means, Children,
who will go out in the world, and will be Godly, Loving, Merciful, Kind, Patient, not overbearing, not critical, not hateful, etc.,
also where Paul says, Fathers do NOT provoke your children to Wrath, but bring them up in the NURTURE, and admonishing of the Lord,
and then we can look at what Jesus said to the apostles, call NO man master, serve as I have served, etc.
Yea, I don't know about this whole 'leave it up to God' and be demanding and this whole nonsense about 'gender roles' [which are Clearly blown out of proportion] and all that--
doesn't sound Anything like what Jesus commanded, sounds more like just traditions of men. AND if Christians, were Doing what Jesus has commanded us to do,
that would mean, one would have to space out children some what, because our Life isn't supposed to be 'about here and now', but about being hid in Christ, doing HIS work, and Souls, is His work....why He died.
Not so we could create mega families and mega nations, that's Nationalism, not Christianity,
we are to be concerned with building, the Kingdom of God, Spiritual families, through the message of Grace--not by physical means or by legalism.
That just sounds more like Islam---NOT Christianity.
Just saying,
Jane
Hmmmm, but That's is what is So interesting and Awesome about God,
because if we look at how God plans families, in His Word, and through what we can SEE every day in nature, from botany to animals to even bacteria,
we can see, that God, plans in Order, in 'space' between, even with man and woman, in the Old Testament when birth control didn't exist, even then, God in His Infinite Wisdom, because He IS God, and 'man' is not,
God used timing, through circumstances, some maybe not good, but God knows how to work through things, to space out children, and we know this because Man, in HIS ATTEMPT TO 'BE' GOD, would step Beyond God and marry other women, even using concubines, to 'expand' his territory, etc. God in His mercy, allows mankind to do stupid things--to eventually see, that guess what,
when human kind attempts to PLAY GOD, either through 'lording' it over a woman or 'lording' it over entire societies, especially using birth to do so or 'ending' births to do so or controlling Who can be born or Who cannot be, that little thing we call Social Engineering, those methods that Fascists love to use [and that is what is so awesome about God, in that He allows human kind to mess up time and time again, is that clearly, God is NO FASCIST.
So, anyway, its obvious, that God, knows what He is doing---and well, we could just take some examples of Old Testament Law to reveal that God in no way, Intended for women, to be pregnant every time they turn around, He gave women a 'break' through certain laws, such as ceremonial cleansing, through certain times where sex was to be postponed [such as on certain Holy days] through out the year, through times of prayer and those times during Atonement, etc.,
so in the Old Testament, women, were NOT pregnant all the time, and even in times of war, God gave men that first year of marriage off from war duty [that was what He commanded men] so that there would be time to develop a strong bond in marriage [because marriage was Supposed to be about companionship--that cleaving, that one flesh, not for breeding], and secondly,
because sadly, because of human kind's inability to 'share resources' which is what many wars are over [land esp], and greed [and imperialism for greed still exists today], many men died, so that left many women not having too many children, unless they remarried,
and then, in the New Covenant, once the Old one was replaced, the Old Testament Law to be a 'tutor' for us until the fulfillment and our being ransomed through Jesus,
God allowed that time to 'pray and fast' so that married couples could retain that 'space' for God, because you see, no Husband or Wife, was to EVER, TAKE THE 'PLACE' OF 'GOD',
and so that would provide time between children AND not only that, just the great commission in itself, to be in Service, To God, not to 'sex' would also mean, giving lots of time for that, which would mean less time to be pro-creating, etc., after all, we were not to be 'saving our lives' but 'losing them for Jesus AND the Gospels sake, meaning, giving of our selves to 'others' not just to those who 'are in our circle' so that Others may come to know Christ, and that takes time, why Paul told Timothy, not to be 'ensnared with the entanglements' of this world, because they become conflicts, we are not 'of' this world, etc., and that is also why Paul recommended, not 'demanded' that if one could, to remain Single [and he said this to Women too] because to be married, would cause problems in the 'flesh' which means, that being torn between two duties, one to family, one to God and to His kingdom, and never, did the Bible say, that we, men OR women, and in fact that includes married women, were to shun their responsibilities to service to Christ--just because they were married so That in itself,
such as serving the Poor [a command btw, for both Men and Women, see Timothy and the directions on caring for widows, married women were Expected to work for Jesus, not just breed babies and be 'sex slaves-and slaves to the husband, remember, he is not to take place of God',
reaching out to comfort the afflicted [commanded to both men AND women], ministering to the Saints [commanded to both men AND women], praying for 'others' without ceasing [commanded to both men AND women], witnessing [commanded to both men AND women], and so forth,
you know, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give water to the thirsty, visit those in prison, etc etc etc, relieve the afflicted,
and you know, in our world, there are just Numerous ways, to minister and both men AND women, married were commanded to Do so, SO if, we were to Just obey those, in of themselves,
well, then I suppose that means, we would be then required, as the Stewards we are supposed to be, to pray for Wisdom, to know the perfect Will of God, and to be responsible and to maybe, be a bit more careful, in planning children,
to maybe, not just 'leave it up to biology' but to pray for wisdom and discernment, maybe even using [if one is opposed to birth control] natural methods, such as spacing or as Paul said, in agreement for a consent of time for fasting and prayer, for service, etc. BTW, that defrauding one another, is NOT about 'obligatory sex', marital rape IS a sin, so is submitting to rape, so is Love with Hypocrisy, [and if one was to read the Judaic laws on marriage, the contracts that are required between man and woman, intimacy required honesty--including not forcing or demanding sex from a bad state of heart--that would be a form of Fraud],
and fraud is just that--fraud, that means, if one demands sex, with selfish intent [in defiance of the Lord's command to love and think more highly of another and to SERVE rather than be served and to reconcile IF you have made or offended one, that includes, yes, the spouse, wife], well, to be 'selfish', abusive, in any way, in a marriage, is Fraud, that is what that means, do NOT defraud one ye another...fraud comes in Many forms. [God hates lies, and so love that is not truly love, is a lie]
So well anyway, my point is, if it is to 'leave' it up to God, then I suppose, if that be the case, then one would want to be Sure, that they would seek Wisdom, on what God would want--based on Who God is,
and how God does things. To not do so, is foolishness, its not that we are to just 'leave' things up to God, such as like one would do with 'fate', but we are to Seek God's will--
if you add up All the other things that Jesus told us to do, how in the world, then, could we say, we are just to have child after child after child after child and nothing else? NOT that there is anything Wrong with having many children,
but I've yet to see, Anywhere, where Jesus or the apostles or Paul said, your duty on earth is to have child after child and to live for having children, to just 'leave it up to God' and so forth,
what I have read, is all the other things we are to do and therefore, I would Think, then because of the TIME those things take, that we are to place certain priorities, such as, God and His kingdom first, which was about witnessing and sharing and loving and reaching out to those in need, First and Foremost, Jesus gave us Strong warnings on this, to avoid iniquity, doing Evil to someone, to avoid that, to make right the wrongs we've done, to be SERVANTS, to Love without Hypocrisy, to be Examples, not Lords, then, Then,
all these other things, in our lives, will be added unto you, and in fact, if memory serves me correct, we ARE to have a lot, LOT of children,
but if I recall, it was that scripture where Jesus said, to those who leave wives, mothers, fathers, Children, for me and my name sake, will in this lifetime, receive Hundreds of children, etc. WITH PERSECUTIONS, and so forth...
those children, were Spiritual children.
I don't know, maybe I'm missing it somewhere, but I thought, the Whole point, of the Gospel, was that we are ransomed, saved, by Grace, by Mercy, and that we have a Duty, to serve, by showing Love, by ministering, by giving up 'our' lives, 'our plans', that would include, our ways and 'thoughts on how things should be done' according to Traditions and the Rudiments of the world [culture] and to make sure that Every creature,
hears the good message. Not, nation building through mass numbers of children or this 'just leaving it up to God' -- God commanded Adam and Eve, to multiply and to subdue and to have dominion--with responsibility to do it well--to take Care of the garden, so to speak,
not to just, leave it up to God, therefore, we are judged according to our Stewardship, of HOW we rule--whether we rule/do our works according to God's way of doing things [which are not cruel or selfish or insistent on one's way or demanding NOR are they to be burdensome or oppressive to others], and Jesus gave Numerous examples, of this, in parables.
God does everything with balance--His whole universe, there is an ecological balance--even female animals, space out their breeding,
because God is Wise--'man is not'.
So I don't think--its this flippant 'leave it up to God' but more of a 'seek God's Wisdom [and the book of Proverbs warns of what happens when Man, lean unto their OWN understanding, that INCLUDES chauvinism],
and to seal this....we can then look at God's commands on raising children, one, on this 'insistence' to lord and demand and be 'king' of the castle false teaching--Malachi, God HATES domestic violence, that includes VERBAL ABUSE, and God will punish, those who behave in such manner, and God hates the garment of violence, because God wanted 'Godly children' that means, Children,
who will go out in the world, and will be Godly, Loving, Merciful, Kind, Patient, not overbearing, not critical, not hateful, etc.,
also where Paul says, Fathers do NOT provoke your children to Wrath, but bring them up in the NURTURE, and admonishing of the Lord,
and then we can look at what Jesus said to the apostles, call NO man master, serve as I have served, etc.
Yea, I don't know about this whole 'leave it up to God' and be demanding and this whole nonsense about 'gender roles' [which are Clearly blown out of proportion] and all that--
doesn't sound Anything like what Jesus commanded, sounds more like just traditions of men. AND if Christians, were Doing what Jesus has commanded us to do,
that would mean, one would have to space out children some what, because our Life isn't supposed to be 'about here and now', but about being hid in Christ, doing HIS work, and Souls, is His work....why He died.
Not so we could create mega families and mega nations, that's Nationalism, not Christianity,
we are to be concerned with building, the Kingdom of God, Spiritual families, through the message of Grace--not by physical means or by legalism.
That just sounds more like Islam---NOT Christianity.
Just saying,
Jane