|
Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on May 8, 2009 8:16:55 GMT -5
Just a note to say, "Hi" and "Happy Friday" I've been super busy ~ which is why I haven't posted much here the past few days. Lydia Jean turned 9 on Wednesday ~ and we were planning to celebrate her birthday this evening, except that somehow we didn't get the invitations sent out ~ so now we're postponing her party until next weekend so that we can give advance notice to her girlfriends. I couldn't stop myself from getting a bunch of purple petunias to plant in the flowerbeds which my brother made for me out of railroad ties ~ we're on a corner lot and the beds go all the way around ~ very pretty when we plant flowers and then actually take care of them so they are covered in blooms. The kids were out of school yesterday ~ and so all day long, I felt like it was Saturday. I put everyone to work ~ either in the house or out in the yard ~ and we got a lot done. The place looks so much nicer. In the evening, the Salvation Army had a picnic at the park ~ so we went to that and had a good time. This morning, I'm meeting Heather for our usual Friday-morning-coffee and then my mother (GrandmaLou) is coming over for lunch and a visit. Nice! So here's something interesting (this'll sound like gossip ~ but this forum just seems like a place to discuss this sort of thing) ~ Recently, in response to Molly's post about the financial practicalities of filing for divorce, I mentioned that my neighbor remarried soon after divorcing her first husband ~ and the man she married (Paul) has been very good to her and her kids. I was using them as an example of a family in which it worked out for a woman to find another man to support her and the kids ~ and it didn't turn out to be a disaster. After reading what I wrote, John told me that he wondered if it really was working out as well as I thought ~ he said that since our family had been Family of the Year ~ and yet turned out to be so messed up ~ it made him suspicious of all families. We chuckled together, because we realized the danger of becoming jaded by all the relationship horror stories here at NLQ. "Well," I told him, "Paul is a nice guy ~ they really do seem like a nice family." So later that same evening, I was sitting out on the porch swing when my kids went next door to ask Paul if they could borrow his ladder. He brought it over and then stopped to talk to me ~ he told me that he had just discovered that his wife is cheating on him. UGH!!! Looks like they are headed for divorce. Paul told me that the counselor he talked to suggested that since his wife was so young when he married her, and she'd never really known any strong, healthy relationships ~ it's possible that she never did love him ~ just used him as an escape from financial disaster. Looks like now they are headed for divorce. Now how in the world am I supposed to hold on to the idea that there really are some good relationships ~ somewhere ~ really? All of this causes me to constantly be evaluating my relationship with John. Considering that I have never personally witnessed a mature, healthy relationship between a committed couple ~ I can't really help thinking that there is no such critter ~ except that whenever I think about it (which is pretty often) ~ I realize that I actually do have a very good relationship with John. It's hard not to sometimes think that I must be fooling myself ~ but then, I really do believe that John is a good man and our relationship is actually and genuinely "good" for both of us. Sometime ~ when I have time ~ I'd really like to get into a discussion about this ... And on a totally unrelated note ~ my van is crapping out. We've got almost 200,000 miles on it ~ and there's something wrong with the transmission, the electrical system (it keeps dinging me even when all the doors are shut and there's plenty of gas in the tank), and something feels weird about it ~ like the bottom's going to drop out. So ~ I need to find alternative transportation before the girls' surgeries in June ~ that's a long ride home from Minneapolis after the surgeries ~ and I'd hate to cramp the girls all up in one back seat. Fun, huh? It's always something. Anyway ~ I'd better get going ~ don't want to be late for coffee with Heather. Have a great day ~ I'll be around sometime this afternoon or evening with another post on the blog and hopefully, I'll get a chance to tackle a bit of all the thoughtful commentary relating to the latest "Sandy Factor" post about grace. Bye for now. Vyckie
|
|
jeb
Junior Member
Posts: 97
|
Post by jeb on May 8, 2009 9:16:47 GMT -5
Yes, it's very sad about Paul and Shannon and it just shows-to-go that you never know, eh? Hope they can find a solution that works for them both. S'far's talking about our relationship, Vyckie, me thinks thou art getting ahead of thy story and thou art gonna drive these folks crazy if thou persists. LOL Luvyah Babe John
|
|
|
Post by barbaraw on May 8, 2009 10:14:20 GMT -5
Now how in the world am I supposed to hold on to the idea that there really are some good relationships ~ somewhere ~ really? If you ever figure it out, let me know. Just kidding. Mostly. My marriage counselor tells me that there is such a thing, so I think there must be. However, I do intend on pre-marital counseling before I go even getting engaged, much less married, ever again.
|
|
aimai
Full Member
Posts: 172
|
Post by aimai on May 8, 2009 10:31:07 GMT -5
Hm. Well, I'm a believer in healthy, happy, largely egalitarian marriages because I'm in one, I'm the product of one, both my grandparents had them (minus the egalitarian part) and even my dear H's parents, who I otherwise am not crazy about, have a very supportive relationship. All those marriages (minus mine because I'm a late bloomer) lasted 60 years (at the best) and at any rate until death (at the worst). But I think we're like the believers in a mysterious, invisible, god when we post over here because it seems kind of rude to say “yeah! I've got a great marriage!”
I do think loving, healthy, relationships are possible but I tend to think that they need to be entered into by mature, fairly strong people. Its not an age thing—my parents met and fell in love at age nine, were married in their early twenties. Now they are going on their fifty something wedding anniversary. The key to their marriage has been sincere enjoyment of each other as people, always learning and growing in different directions, always coming back to each other with sincere respect and lust. And they've endured some stuff, you know, its not all “peaches and gravey.” My sister died when she was six and I was eight. That was a grievous time and I know my mother suffered a depression afterwards. But they stayed together and by learning, working, growing they seem to have an ever renewed relationship. I know that my parents love me, my brother, my children and my nieces but I also know that they come first for each other.
I think a lot of people can't figure out how to have a mature relationship with another adult at all—they want always to be the mommy, or the daddy, or the baby but never the partner. Heaven help the woman who wants to be the wife of a man who wants to be the daddy or the baby! And vice versa.
aimai
|
|
|
Post by krwordgazer on May 8, 2009 14:20:06 GMT -5
I agree with Aimai. My husband is my best friend, and has been for 21 years now. I think one of the reasons our marriage has worked is that the friendship factor came first, before the romance factor. Sure, I find him attractive and all that-- but he's my friend and companion first. Best friends don't need one of them to be in charge. Best friends just keep the needs of the other person in mind and do what's best for each other and for the relationship.
|
|
|
Post by rosa on May 8, 2009 19:20:09 GMT -5
I've been with my boyfriend for 9 years, and aside from the fact that we're child free tonight and can't think of anything more interesting to do than drywall the kitchen, I think we're doing pretty good. Partly because we're not married, I think. It was hard for me, though - i basically had to say to myself "you are not allowed to date anyone you're attracted to on first sight, because you have poor judgement." We were friends for several months before we ever went on a date, and right after we hooked up he went overseas for a couple months, so we had some time to ease into it (though, looking back, it sort of seems like he moved in as soon as we started dating, that's not strictly true.)
|
|
|
Post by coleslaw on May 8, 2009 20:41:42 GMT -5
My first husband and I knew each other for three years before we got married. We were friends for almost a year before we started dating. I divorced him after 11 years after he beat me up and I threw him out of the house.
Four years later I saw my second husband to be across a crowded volleyball court and thought, "Him! I want him!" Eight weeks later we were engaged and less than a year later we were married. Twenty one years later, we're still married.
I don't think there's a lesson in that story anywhere.
|
|
|
Post by arietty on May 8, 2009 21:12:57 GMT -5
I'm very very happy with my husband of 5 1/2 years. I put it down to sheer good luck OR a wonderful blessing (depending on the day) that I found him. If people asked me the secret of our happy marriage I would say "compatibility". I've never met anyone as similar to myself. The marriage is not a lot of work. It's easy and simple.
As to your story of your neighbours.. I do think it is a pattern to find someone else in order to have the strength to leave a relationship. I don't think those circumstances doom the relationship to failure though, it's all individual.
People should feel free to craft their relationships to suit themselves, choosing whether to marry or not, live together or not, combine finances or not, have children or not.. so many of us go into it expecting to tick all the boxes and meet the requirements of the marriage picture that is presented as the norm. People struggle to meet that picture and see their relationship as problematic because they fail in some area when often you can just jettison that area and live a little differently.
|
|
|
Post by sargassosea on May 8, 2009 21:18:34 GMT -5
While contemplating - overnight, for sure - the latest Tour de Crap I'd like to add a bit of my love story I've known Dandy Deluxe for 22 years (!) and we've been not *married* for 15 or so. Not that we could be in most states in the Union, of course, but I digress.. We've been through a ton of stuff during these years and here we are, same as we ever were - only wiser and more Breathtakingly Gorgeous
|
|
|
Post by arietty on May 8, 2009 21:35:38 GMT -5
Good for you Sea! Yeah stuff does work out, but it works out better if people jettison the requirements society puts on relationships IMHO. Yet the whole Big Wedding thing still sells, the whole trajectory we are all supposed to be following is still a requirement for most.
|
|
|
Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on May 8, 2009 22:05:47 GMT -5
S'far's talking about our relationship, Vyckie, me thinks thou art getting ahead of thy story and thou art gonna drive these folks crazy if thou persists. LOL I am pretty well doomed to drive folks crazy in the telling of my story ~ ugh!
|
|
|
Post by themomma on May 8, 2009 22:49:01 GMT -5
I do not know of any perfect marriage or relationship. I think that every couple has to decide over and over again if they are going to stay together.
Are the "problems" they have counter-balanced by the "good" things they have?
Anytime someone tells me how wonderful things are I get suspicious. Not that there aren't healthy relationships out there, but they are few and far between.
|
|
|
Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on May 8, 2009 23:14:18 GMT -5
Okay, well ~ my big day is winding down and now I have some time at the computer *and* I'm in the mood to write ~ so I'm going to spend some time this evening responding to comments. This is so much easier in the forum format ~ it's a relief to me that when I see something I want to respond to, I don't feel like I absolutely have to do it *right now* or the comment will be buried and I'll never find it again. Whew. I can relax now and get back to the comments when I have time. Before I go to commenting, I just wanted to tell a little about my day. I had coffee with Heather ~ which is something that I always look forward to. Heather is the pastor at the Salvation Army church where I attend ~ she's a very fun person ~ and I really appreciate that when we're together, I feel energized and enthusiastic. Being friends with Heather is easy ~ it's not draining, it's not work ~ it's one of the few relationships in my life where I feel like I get more out of it than I put in. Hopefully, that's not at her expense ~ I get a little worried because I always felt like Warren got all of his energy ~ which was endless ~ by sucking mine from me ~ and I'd hate to be the one doing that to another person. Heather assures me that she enjoys my company and looks forward to our Friday morning coffee too. And I believer her because we always have a good visit ~ even though we disagree about nearly everything. It's just that we don't really spend a lot of time focusing on the things we don't agree on ~ we're both moms, we're both women ~ so we always find plenty in common to talk about. Afterwards, I came home and did a few things around the house ~ and then my mother came over and we had lunch together. I've been wanting a chance to talk with her before I write the next installment of the "Sandy Factor" series because I want to make sure I'm remembering things correctly ~ I was so young, and I often wonder if I've exaggerated certain memories over the years. So, I asked her a few questions and then I listened as she told her story ~ and really, I wished that I'd had a recorder so that I could tape everything she said and replay it for everyone here at NLQ. If I did, I have no doubt that she'd get a great, big, collective "Poor GrandmaLou!" from all of us on the forum. I've heard Mom's stories over and over ~ and yet, listening to her today ~ it was almost like I heard her for the first time ~ and I just felt overwhelmed for all that she's been through. I'm really anxious to get it written down ~ but I'm afraid I won't be able to do her story justice ~ the woman has a book of her own to write and I think I have the perfect title ~ except that if I tell you now, I'll give the entire story away. After Mom went home, the kids all came home from school. Every afternoon, it's the same thing. They come through the door and drop their stuff in the livingroom ~ so I tell them to put it away ~ and then they start handing me notices and papers to sign ~ and telling me what all they need money for ~ and then they want to play with their friends. Even though we postponed Lydia Jean's birthday celebration until next weekend, she has two friends spending the night. Wow ~ it's amazing how shrill little girl screams can be ~ you'd think that someone was slaughtering them ~ and it always turns out to be nothing ~ they're just having fun. I hadn't seen John all day, and since I couldn't leave the kids unattended, I asked him to come over and read to me. We recently finished The Secret Lives of Bees by Sue Kidd Monk and Moonheart by Charles de Lint (a Canadian author whom I'd have never read if John hadn't introduced me to his amazing fantasy/fiction stories) ~ and so now we're reading The Number One Ladies Detective Agency by Alexander McCall Smith. Well, actually ~ John is reading the book while I listen. He has the most wonderful voice. So we did that while the kids played ~ and if you've ever tried to read while a bunch of little kids are running around, you'd be amazed that John and I ever finish a single book. Despite the near-constant interruptions, we got through several chapters. It's really a great story. So ~ as I said, the day is winding down. John went home around 9 ~ and I got Andrew busy washing the dishes, Chasse and Hazelle are home from Teen Night, Berea is home from work ~ Lydia Jean and her friends saw a snake outside so decided to sleep in the livingroom rather than the tent as they originally intended ~ Wesley is up way past his bedtime ~ but since there's no school tomorrow, that's okay. I don't know why I told you all that ~ but, I guess this is just chit-chat right? Okay ~ now on to the comments ...
|
|
|
Post by arietty on May 9, 2009 0:45:24 GMT -5
After Mom went home, the kids all came home from school. Every afternoon, it's the same thing. They come through the door and drop their stuff in the livingroom ~ so I tell them to put it away ~ and then they start handing me notices and papers to sign ~ and telling me what all they need money for ~ and then they want to play with their friends. . YEP. That is one thing I miss about homeschooling, every time I get handed all those endless forms and notices and newsletters I think UGH.. I never used to have all this stuff. When you have a lot of kids it's pretty full on, and I'm always procrastinating forms so it kind of builds up. And then there's the stuff they thrust at me to sign 1 minute before they are supposed to leave the house to get the bus! And the money requests.. lol.
|
|
|
Post by rosa on May 9, 2009 8:00:59 GMT -5
That sounds like a lovely day, Vyckie. And it's nice to see a picture of a happy family day that's not perfect but still sounds lovely.
I spend all day periodically checking on the kids outdoors when the shreiking gets louder or longer and I think "maybe one of them is really hurt?" So far, that's never been it. But I can't help looking.
|
|
|
Post by anatheist on May 13, 2009 10:59:57 GMT -5
I'm sorry about your neighbors, but I noticed something interesting. When you first talked about them seeming to have a good relationship, you did so in terms of disliking and distrusting men. Yet, in this follow-up, it seems to be the man who has been hurt by the woman. Although that's not a good thing, I think it's a small change in narrative between "men always hurt women" and "people hurt each other with their selfishness".
I'm in a "perfect" relationship now, after a failed marriage and a failed attempt by my ex-husband to force patriarchy on me. In my thinking, one of the main reasons I was able to end up in a great relationship was that I wouldn't accept any compromises in what I wanted in and from a relationship. Now, I definitely don't think that everyone needs to be stringent to have a good relationship, but after coming out of a bad one, I found myself immovable. I've rejected some genuinely nice guys that way, and I'm ok with that.
The old me would have dated a guy who seemed attracted to me, and found a way to convince myself that whatever and whoever he was could fit with me and what I wanted- or worse, that I could find a way to want what he wanted. Now I know what I want, and how to look for it, and if a guy doesn't fit that, whether it's because he's really a creep or because he's a great guy who just isn't going the same direction in life, I'm out of there.
When I first started dating my boyfriend, he had some ideas about relationships that didn't fit what I want. And I said, I'm never doing that, so if you want to stay in this relationship, you have to accept that. I wasn't unfair, I never "tricked" him into getting involved and then dropped an expectation that I'd been hiding on him. And he did change what he expected.
When I say that I don't compromise, I don't mean that there are never daily household compromises, but for example, agreeing to take on co-ownership of his dog and take her out in the morning isn't a compromise of character.
|
|
aimai
Full Member
Posts: 172
|
Post by aimai on May 13, 2009 11:47:53 GMT -5
Great Point on being true to yourself and your desires at the start of a relationship. Its true that there are rough patches in all relationships—in all lives—and as themomma points out up above you have to keep choosing to be together (in a sense) even when its not perfect. But you have to be honest with yourself about what is and what is not important—and demand the same honesty from your significant other—because otherwise you can't both make the same compromises and choices when the going gets tough. I know I've recommended it on the board before but I heartily recommend Gavin deBecker's “The Gift of Fear.” That's a book about learning to trust your own instincts when it comes to the predatory or abusive behavior of others. And its a great book for women in between relationships because it emphasizes that the socialization of women to “be nice” and to be nurturing and socially aware can lead women to suppress their natural and instinctive judgements. In deBecker's book he stresses that lots of abusive behavior—from stalking to outright attack—begins with a person (and it doesn't have to be a guy) testing your boundaries and testing just how far you will go to avoid embarrassment, publicity, attention. In the context of general male/female relatinoships what I take away from the book is an admonition to be true to yourself. If you feel like this is not a good working relationship then just drop it. No amount of massaging a pig turns it into a silk purse. Though the pig might like it.
I don't think all male female relationships are oppressive or abusive at all—and I don't think the arrow of abuse always goes in one direction either—but I do think that women have been trained to be hyper forgiving of things that make them uncomfortable or unhappy. What Atheist in the BB is saying is—don't settle. Try to be honest about what you do and don't want. The old fifties model of womanhood in which you have to have a guy to be someone and you need to attract him any way you can except honestly, “warts and all” isn't fixed by the submissive, christ centered, compelmentary courtship model in which you passively allow yourself to be assigned a life mate and god substitute and then spend the rest of your life propping him up. There's something in the middle—but its not feminism as dating service either. Its simply feminism as adulthood, true adulthood, when you don't have time to pretend that you will be forever young and taut and nubile, or forever able to cater to his pez dispenser collection or his dog, or whatever.
You have to enter a new relationship firmly planted on both feet. If you are balancing yourself on one foot, or squinting through only one eye, to make it work, you are bound to get tired of being one legged or blind about what isn't working. Especially, to mix my metaphors, when the seas get rough.
|
|