Hello, all

[amaranth]

Hi!

My real name is Ashley, but Amaranth is my typical online avatar. I'm a wife and the stay-at-home mother of a rambunctious four-year-old boy. I'm also a writer and an artist (which is why the staying at home thing works for me so well). My husband is a Christian and I'm a former Christian, though I've never been involved in anything like the QF movement or other extreme cultish lifestyles. I had actually never even heard of Quiverfull until I happened across the No Longer Qivering website...from a comment on Slacktivist, I think.

I admit I was never burned by Christianity, as a lot of you here have been, but I was turned off nonetheless by doctrine I just couldn't agree with, and stories of people using the faith to hurt others. Nominally I'm something of a Neo-Pagan, although that's about as specific as saying one lives in America. I've tried out a handful of religions over the last seven years or so, and at first I was trying very very hard to get away from anything that smacked of the Christian God, whom I was disgusted with. But as many of you here probably know, God doesn't give up on people. No matter how far away I tried to get, spiritually, religiously, I always seemed to end up staring him in the face again. He kept telling me, over and over again, "I'm not always who they say I am." Eventually, he won me back.

So I'm in the odd place of being a Pagan who belongs to the Christian God. Jesus' place in my life is still up in the air, as it were, though I've learned that he's also not always who people say he is. I still have too many issues and hangups with him and the Christian religion to call myself a Christian in good conscience, but I suppose I'm as close as one can get and not be there.

I'm here, in part, because I'm exploring my own doctrinal issues and because what you all have been through is exactly the sort of crud that turned me off to the faith in the first place. I've been lurking on this forum for a week or so, and I've really enjoyed reading your stories. It's informative to me to see how women who have been abused by extreme versions of Christianity come out of it, and how they feel about God and Jesus afterward.

I also like having a link to some of the crazy ideas out there, even though they make me angry. Having learned myself that God isn't a bigoted, narrow-minded, sadistic tyrant, it bothers me all the more when people arrogantly portray him as such, or when people are misled into thinking that's who he is. I feel like I have to defend him...you know what I mean? It'd be like someone spreading bad rumors about my husband.

So...that's the short version of who I am and why I'm here.

[amaranth]

Here's the link to my writer's blog, if anyone is interested:

nightphoenix.com/

[nikita]

He kept telling me, over and over again, "I'm not always who they say I am."

Well put. That's why I've never had any problem believing, that right there. Just because somebody else thinks so doesn't make it true. Most people's conception of the Christian God is way too small and petty IMO. There is no reason whatsoever that I should be bound by their smallness of heart and mind. God isn't bound by them either, though they'd like to think they have the inside track on all things truth.

Sorry, I've been on a tear this weekend, furious at these preachers and teachers who try to lower God Himself to their own petty hardhearted level. Like you say, it's as though they were spreading rumors about my husband.

Anyway -- Welcome.

[kiery]

Hey!

I'm (sortof, kinda, almost,...attempting to be) an artist too - What kind of art do you create?

We're pretty diverse here with regards to where we stand on stuff, so I think you'll fit right in. Great to have you!

[cherylannhannah]

Welcome, Ashley!

I'm new here as well and still sorting out a few things but have come a long way since my world imploded. I hope you find what you need here.

Cheryl

[km]

Jun 14, 2010 11:02:11 GMT -5 amaranth said:

So I'm in the odd place of being a Pagan who belongs to the Christian God. Jesus' place in my life is still up in the air, as it were, though I've learned that he's also not always who people say he is. I still have too many issues and hangups with him and the Christian religion to call myself a Christian in good conscience, but I suppose I'm as close as one can get and not be there.

Fascinating... I have a similarly fraught relationship with Christianity, though it's still quite different from yours. I don't speak in terms of a personal relationship with Jesus or about God "not giving up" on me as you do... Because the imperative of the "personal relationship" always made me feel so alienated in Christianity because I never felt anything.

But I still tend to claim that I'm a Christian on some days and an agnostic on others, and this doesn't mean I've taken an un-serious approach to faith, just that I've taken the only kind of spiritual path that I can live with and that doesn't turn me into a fanatical dogmatist by the end of the day. Alternatively, I'll sometimes tell people that I will always be culturally Christian inasmuch as I was raised in the Protestant church and still find its imagery meaningful and resonant--if not literally applicable to every aspect of my every day life. I will always believe in turning the other cheek and in going the extra mile on behalf of one's neighbor, and I'll always be a bit more drawn to the idea of sacrifice on behalf of humanity than Immanuel Kant would've found healthy and proper.

I feel defensive of Christians when I hear all Christians demonized and tend to throw myself in with the pool of self-identifying Christians when I see this happen even though I know most Christians do not welcome me at the table.

I don't dabble in other faiths, though I certainly understand the drive to do it. For me, the idea of it doesn't feel "right" exactly. I feel like I find the spirituality that I need in an unorthodox approach to Christianity. I also have a neurotic fear of cultural appropriation informed by postmodern liberal sensibilities, and even though my claim to Christianity is by no means originary (An involvement in some kind of Anglo-Germanic paganism would certainly be more so.), I've never felt comfortable with the idea of dabbling in a religious tradition that I wasn't born into.

So, in the end, I'm one of those part-time nominal Christians who doesn't even go to church but nevertheless finds solace--if not a personal relationship--in Christian tradition.

ETA: Welcome, by the way. Hope I wasn't too off-topic... I have noticed that a number of people here are either solidly Christian or not-Christian, and yours is one of the first faith narratives here that I felt I could identify with, however different the narratives actually are.

[nikita]

But I still tend to claim that I'm a Christian on some days and an agnostic on others, and this doesn't mean I've taken an un-serious approach to faith, just that I've taken the only kind of spiritual path that I can live with and that doesn't turn me into a fanatical dogmatist by the end of the day.

That resonated with me, although our experiences and what we've done with them are quite different. I am not saying that this is what you are doing but I wanted to share how this shook out for me in my life.

For two years after I left the cult I identified as Christian although I did nothing whatsoever in relation to that designation. I wanted to do something, find some church somewhere or pray or do something, but I couldn't do it. Whenever I even thought of doing something like praying or reading the bible or whatever I would start to literally panic. The mantras, 'If you take one step backwards you're backslidden' and 'If you start out hot you have to stay hot' were so ingrained in my psyche that I was literally terrified to do anything at all toward God for fear of immediately being sucked into a vortex and landing right back where I came from. I could not do it 'all' so my only choice was to do 'nothing'. No middle ground. This was so visceral. It was like when I would get really sick when I was in the cult and try to do anything at all - attend a service, say. The immediate response from everyone around me would be, 'If you're well enough to be here then you should be able to do x.' Immediately followed by, 'If you're well enough to do x then surely there's no reason you can't do y." Until you were expected to do everything in spite of having a 105 degree fever and being barely able to stand under my own power. And if I didn't do it I was considered 'unspiritual'.

So that was the exact mental process I found myself in for years after I left. Even today I fight this, this sense that if I pray God will put a vise around me and start squeezing me for things I am not prepared to do, that I am just too tired to deal with right now. Intellectually I know it's ridiculous but it's deep inside me and I haven't been able to root it out.

I considered going the pagan route, or even an eastern religious 'meditation' based route since my spiritual experience has always been very mystical, but I could not leave Christ behind in that. Which is why I found myself in Catholicism. My conversion was both faith-based and a healing therapy for me. But it was some years before I could even consider doing it.

Anyway, I like what you wrote there. This was the part that hit me where I live(d) but the entire thing really resonated for me. It's funny how our religious lives, rather than increasing our faith and devotion, have served to drive a wedge there instead. I don't think that was what our pastors and leaders had in mind at the time. Sometimes men really muck things up.

I wish you peace in whatever you wind up believing/doing/not believing/ not doing. It can be hard to come by.

[km]

nikita: That's all very interesting, and I can relate to much of your experience as well. I have often thought that if I ever decide to return to a faith community--and I'm putting no pressure on myself to do this--that I would feel most safe in some kind of High Church atmosphere. I would not likely go as far as converting to Catholicism, but I think I would feel most comfortable in a highly liturgical tradition. Episcopalianism, for example. I feel this way for a number of reasons, but I think it's mostly because I burned out so badly on the imperative of the "personal relationship." If I were to go back into any formal religious tradition, it would need to be one that did not stress this aspect of Christian faith or make me feel like a "bad Christian" for not feeling anything. Or for being uncomfortable with praying out loud in front of a group of people. I find I'm now far more comfortable with less emotional, more reserved expressions of faith. Ones that prioritize a sense of "reverence" such that one can safely maintain some distance--and need not act like Jesus is personally talking to her every day.

I was never "successful" at that type of Christianity, and I think the feeling that I was an impostor who couldn't really feel a relationship with Jesus in progress was possibly what spurred the legalism in the beginning.

[zoeygirl]

Jun 17, 2010 13:30:06 GMT -5 nikita said:

For two years after I left the cult I identified as Christian although I did nothing whatsoever in relation to that designation. I wanted to do something, find some church somewhere or pray or do something, but I couldn't do it. Whenever I even thought of doing something like praying or reading the bible or whatever I would start to literally panic. The mantras, 'If you take one step backwards you're backslidden' and 'If you start out hot you have to stay hot' were so ingrained in my psyche that I was literally terrified to do anything at all toward God for fear of immediately being sucked into a vortex and landing right back where I came from. I could not do it 'all' so my only choice was to do 'nothing'. No middle ground.

Thanks for sharing this, nikita. This is me right now--and I've been feeling really guilty about not going to church. I've been a church-goer since birth since my dad was a pastor, and now, after first leaving a (church-sanctioned) abusive marriage and then leaving fundamentalism, and then leaving my church, I find myself flapping in the wind. I don't have a church right now. I totally understand the feelings of panic you would feel. I feel like I need to be taking a break, but, like I said, I feel guilty sometimes, and I wonder if/when these feelings of aversion will ever go away.

I don't know where I'll end up, but I've met quite a few people like you who left the evangelical side to go to the liturgical side. A lot of them have found peace there. It is at the back of my mind for 'someday'. Anyway, your post made me feel better about where I am right now in my journey.

And welcome amaranth!

[amaranth]

What kind of art do you create?

Mostly I draw, with both pencil and colored pencils (Prismacolors are the best!). Sometimes I'll break out the paints, but it's hard with a little one in the apartment, and we don't have much room. Eventually I hope we'll be well-off enough for me to have a little art studio where I can spread out...and maybe do some pottery, which I enjoy, too. I do a lot of fantasy art, dragons and such (but not the horror stuff, ick)...and actually most of my artwork relates to my writing.

I also make wands (I don't really use them, but I just enjoy making them), and occasionally I make incense from scratch.

I also have a neurotic fear of cultural appropriation informed by postmodern liberal sensibilities, and even though my claim to Christianity is by no means originary (An involvement in some kind of Anglo-Germanic paganism would certainly be more so.), I've never felt comfortable with the idea of dabbling in a religious tradition that I wasn't born into.

I've actually felt the same way about many traditions, which is the reason I could never really get into Native American spirituality or shamanic practices...not because I didn't like them, but because I kind of felt like a fraud 'cause I'm not of that culture. It's odd that I never really felt that way about Eastern spiritual practices...although come to think of it, the aspects of Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism that really appealed to me were more philosophical in nature, rather than religious.

So many of the New Age religions are relatively new, and make no secret of the fact that they appropriate stuff from all sorts of cultures. I identify with Pagan in the sense of Pagan = Not Christian, Jewish, or Muslim.

When I got into college, the first religion I jumped into was Wicca. I really was trying to get as far away from God as I could, and honestly, I think part of me wanted to know what would happen if I really pissed God off. Sort of a "Hey look, I'm a witch now, whaddya gonna do about that, huh? Smite me, O great Smiter!" All my life I'd felt like the Christian God was this prudish old man with a notepad in hand, just waiting for you to Screw Up so he could cross your name out of the Book. I was tired of being afraid of hell, both for myself and for other people.

Well, I didn't get smited. That was the point at which I began to wonder if maybe I'd been wrong about God.

Cultural appropriation is a hot topic in many pagan circles right now, probably because the movement in general borrows from so many different cultures and is growing so quickly.

I have often thought that if I ever decide to return to a faith community--and I'm putting no pressure on myself to do this--that I would feel most safe in some kind of High Church atmosphere. I would not likely go as far as converting to Catholicism, but I think I would feel most comfortable in a highly liturgical tradition. Episcopalianism, for example. I feel this way for a number of reasons, but I think it's mostly because I burned out so badly on the imperative of the "personal relationship."

This is really interesting, because there seems to be a movement towards high liturgy within Christianity, especially among young people. I think people like the mystery and awe of high liturgy...how the words are almost like poetry, the incense, just the flow of the service...it's almost magical sometimes. Goodness knows there doesn't seem to be much mystery in a typical Protestant church service...in fact, you're much more likely to be amongst people that think they've got God and religion All Figured Out. Wicca appealed to me because of its mysterious aspect. I have a vivid imagination...I guess any religion I ascribe to needs dragons, in a sense.

But now I wonder if the move towards high liturgy might be related to what you said, about needing a little distance in one's relationship with God and Jesus. I've never thought about it that way before.

[km]

Jun 17, 2010 17:21:58 GMT -5 amaranth said:

This is really interesting, because there seems to be a movement towards high liturgy within Christianity, especially among young people. I think people like the mystery and awe of high liturgy...how the words are almost like poetry, the incense, just the flow of the service...it's almost magical sometimes. Goodness knows there doesn't seem to be much mystery in a typical Protestant church service...in fact, you're much more likely to be amongst people that think they've got God and religion All Figured Out. Wicca appealed to me because of its mysterious aspect. I have a vivid imagination...I guess any religion I ascribe to needs dragons, in a sense.

But now I wonder if the move towards high liturgy might be related to what you said, about needing a little distance in one's relationship with God and Jesus. I've never thought about it that way before.

I don't know. I'm mostly aware of this among evangelical young people, and I am not an evangelical now and never will be again. It was toxic for me. I've always just thought I was weird. And, more thoughtfully... I am not sure that I can see most of the young evangelical set feeling alienated by the "relationship with Jesus" thing since that is par for the course in evangelical-dom.

For me... The only church I can do in a healthy way is decidedly non-evangelical. So, I lean toward the more liberal Episcopalians, even Lutherans. Not non-liturgical denominations trying on liturgy as such, but traditionally liturgical churches. Some of it does have to do with separating it from the mundane and the trivial (I could go on and on about how much so many tepid praise songs piss me off... There was that one with the lyrics, "You're my all, you're the best..." And you don't tell God that he's "the best"! I mean, come on... You say that to your six year old niece after she cleans her room.). I feel a little silly and not-quite-comfortable saying that I want more mystery in my religion, but maybe I do, even if I don't like to think of myself as a mystical sort of person... I think I mostly want more personal distance, even more reverence--and no pressure to pray out loud before a group. I also want less concern with my day to day activity. My feeling is... If God is pissed off that I've had sex, he's too small-minded to bother with, and I'd rather meet a God who is concerned with important issues like life and justice and human alienation and suffering.

In the end, I mostly think of myself as a fairly deeply spiritual person who is deeply put off by most spiritual practices and who therefore does most spirituality on her own and by accident. In writing, and in relationships with others. Spiritual experiences happen to me, not because I want or engage in any disciplined religious practice. I have never found explicit devotional times anything other than tedious and oppressive. I know I have experienced something spiritual in my life, but I am no more comfortable naming it than I am comfortable admitting to it and then defining it... For the most part, I operate as a highly secular person, and I start to twitch a little when words like "mystery" start inching into my vocabulary.

[kisekileia]

You'd like the church I occasionally go to, KM. High Anglican, smells and bells--but also with rainbow stripes on the sign, and they've been doing AIDS support stuff since the '80s.

Also: Can I borrow this? "I mostly think of myself as a fairly deeply spiritual person who is deeply put off by most spiritual practices and who therefore does most spirituality on her own and by accident."

[km]

kisekileia: Sure. May I ask what for?

[kisekileia]

To use in describing myself.

[km]

Oh, yeah, sure, no problem.