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Post by RTam on Jul 16, 2010 14:18:04 GMT -5
"The Vatican today made the "attempted ordination" of women one of the gravest crimes under church law, putting it in the same category as clerical sex abuse of minors, heresy and schism." Yes, you read that . Priests who dare to be female are as bad as child rapist. Or, given the church's history, they'll now enjoy the RCC's full protection. Oh Catholic Church. Are there any depths you won't sink to?
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Post by RTam on Jul 16, 2010 14:19:43 GMT -5
I meant "You read that right", of course. Stupid guestfunction won't let me edit...
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Post by nikita on Jul 16, 2010 15:41:02 GMT -5
Well, not really. They are in the same document, not the same type of 'crime'. Whatever your position on the ordination of women (and I presume most here are on the 'favor' side) we shouldn't overblow the actual statements. Here is another article that clarifies the miscommunication: www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE66E2C620100716A quote from that article: "Jon O'Brien, president of the U.S.-based group Catholics for Choice, said the Vatican "feels threatened" by a growing movement in the Church that is in favor of a female priesthood. O'Brien, whose group favors a female priesthood, said that while he understood the technical distinction of different types of Church crimes, putting the two together was another example of what he called bungled communications. "If there is an opportunity for authorities in the Vatican to shoot themselves in the foot, they do so in both feet," O'Brien told Reuters." You would think someone in the process would have thought 'hey, maybe we shouldn't put this all in the same document'. I do take exception to the 'Are there any depths you won't sink to?' comment. That is, of course, my own prerogative.
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Post by jemand on Jul 16, 2010 16:23:41 GMT -5
they're the same level though right? "gross crimes" or something, I don't remember.
And nikita, you aren't 'the catholic church,' i don't expect you to answer for everything they've ever done. Pretty sure rtam was talking about the system... I DO think the system has had a history of sinking to some pretty low depths...
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Post by RTam on Jul 16, 2010 17:35:10 GMT -5
Nikita
I am sorry if my comment came off as deragotory toward Catholics. I was talking not about Catholics as individual people, but about the Catholic Church as an institution.
As for the clarification you cited... note that I not only object to the "crime" being on par with child rape, but that it is a crime at all. Note also that the punishment for the ordaining of women is excommunication, the highest penalty the RCC dispenses. A punishment that has so far not been applied to any child abusing priest.
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Post by nikita on Jul 16, 2010 17:40:32 GMT -5
Oh yeah, they are both 'serious' crimes but against different things. One is against hierarchy or something and the other against morality. That's all I was saying, that it isn't saying that female priests are a crime against morality. Not that I think female priests are a bad thing myself, I honestly am not invested in the question (I try to be but I just am not). And I wouldn't think it a 'serious' anything myself. So I disagree with the document on that point. But I also don't like to see people say it is being equated with pedophilia, because it is not. Apples and oranges. Both fruit, both in the same basket (which was stupid) but not the same thing. And yes, there have been dark dark times and weirdnesses. Of course, my ancestors were Puritans and hanged witches, so... There's dark times and weirdnesses to go around. I am kinda sensitive to this for two reasons. First, there is a real anti-Catholic thread running through a lot of fundamentalist churches and people as well as among very liberal progressive folks who don't like some of the doctrinal positions so sometimes it feels a little besieged. The second reason is that up until I was thirty-three years old I was actively taught that the Catholic Church was the actual Whore of Babylon. I am still surrounded by old friends and family members who believe that. So I get a mite tetchy. I don't mean to be. It's just a knee-jerk defensive reaction. I'll live. And I won't belabor the point. In fact, for my own peace of mind I should stay out of this thread. I'm not feeling emotionally 'up' to argument and defense this week. Sorry.
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Post by nikita on Jul 16, 2010 17:47:02 GMT -5
Nikita I am sorry if my comment came off as deragotory toward Catholics. I was talking not about Catholics as individual people, but about the Catholic Church as an institution. As for the clarification you cited... note that I not only object to the "crime" being on par with child rape, but that it is a crime at all. Note also that the punishment for the ordaining of women is excommunication, the highest penalty the RCC dispenses. A punishment that has so far not been applied to any child abusing priest. Thank you. And I understand. I'm not thrilled with the position myself. See my post above for a fuller explanation for my knee-jerk reaction. I don't mean to be all reactive, it just snapped unexpectedly. Everyone has a right to their opinions and feelings, I didn't mean to imply that one shouldn't be pissed off about the document or other problems the Church is currently involved with right now. But if no one refers to us as 'the whore of Babylon' that would be really great.
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Post by RTam on Jul 16, 2010 18:16:46 GMT -5
Nikita, I totally understand where you're coming from I grew up in an environment that was viciously anti-feminist. Feminism then pretty much saved my life, and I was really pissed to find out that I had been fed lie after lie. So sometimes, it gets really hard for me to not conflate legitimate criticism of the feminist movement with being anti-woman. There was a time I actually believe that "political lesbians" never actually existed and were just a lie made up by people seeking to discredit feminism *lol* Anyway, the point is, if you grow up with slander about something that becomes part of your identity, sometimes criticism of that particular subject is really triggering. So, once more, my apologies for upsetting you.
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Post by nikita on Jul 16, 2010 19:10:59 GMT -5
We're all so full of different triggers it's like walking in a minefield. Thanks for understanding. I'm gonna try to work on not being quite so reactive on that front.
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