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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Jun 1, 2010 7:52:41 GMT -5
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Post by tapati on Jun 1, 2010 13:56:04 GMT -5
Suddenly I am wishing I'd used the word suddenly one less time. That's what I get for finishing that last part while I had a migraine.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Jun 1, 2010 14:28:22 GMT -5
Suddenly I am wishing I'd used the word suddenly one less time. That's what I get for finishing that last part while I had a migraine. Tapati ~ if you need to edit, just let me know and I'll get it taken care of for you This latest installment especially resonated with me ~ so many thoughts and emotions mixed up in reconnecting with family ~ it sure can be painful and confusing. Your story really brought it all home to me ~ On the one hand, you want so badly to be loved and accepted ~ to feel comfortable and supported by your relatives ~ and at the same time, the outrageousness of their treatment makes it seem completely rational to just say, "No more ~ sorry, but I can live without all this heartache."
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Post by humbletigger on Jun 1, 2010 14:28:41 GMT -5
No worriesm tapati. That is a profoundly sad experience with your Dad, and one all too common. I remember seeing my father twice. Once through a courthouse door window when he was on the stand. Someone held my eight year old self up to the window to see. He did not ask to see me that day that I know of. The next time I saw him was a few years ago in his coffin. I went to the funeral specifically to see what he looked like. As far as the Cat Steven's song, I wince when I hear it. It reminds me of my husband's missionary father, who "hated...even his own children...for (Jesus) sake" and is surprised to find that his children don't really have time for him now that he would like a relationship. I have no pity for any man who can send five and six year old children thousands of miles away to the care of strangers in orphanage-type conditions for ANY REASON, much less in the name of my religion! It goes against common sense, natural affection and responsible Bible interpretation. And so, what goes around comes around, you reap what you sow, and/or ain't karma a beyotch. Take your pick.
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Post by tapati on Jun 1, 2010 14:36:20 GMT -5
Suddenly I am wishing I'd used the word suddenly one less time. That's what I get for finishing that last part while I had a migraine. Tapati ~ if you need to edit, just let me know and I'll get it taken care of for you This latest installment especially resonated with me ~ so many thoughts and emotions mixed up in reconnecting with family ~ it sure can be painful and confusing. Your story really brought it all home to me ~ On the one hand, you want so badly to be loved and accepted ~ to feel comfortable and supported by your relatives ~ and at the same time, the outrageousness of their treatment makes it seem completely rational to just say, "No more ~ sorry, but I can live without all this heartache." While it's kind of a detour from directly addressing patriarchy, I felt it was important to show what, exactly, was waiting for me if I chose to rely on my family to help me leave. I've already covered why my mom wasn't a possibility, but pretty much the whole extended family had some kind of problem. Aunt Gin was one of the saner ones but she didn't have the room or the funds to help me. With regard to editing, I think that second suddenly ought to go: Suddenly he shocked me by directly addressing the elephant in the room. “I know I haven’t been a good father,” he said. Suddenly There was a huge lump in my throat. I was trying not to cry, not in front of this stranger. I wanted to ask the question that had been haunting me for years but I couldn’t speak. My throat was still clogged with unshed tears. My brain screamed for me, “Why?” But no one heard. Thanks!
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Post by tapati on Jun 1, 2010 14:40:42 GMT -5
No worriesm tapati. That is a profoundly sad experience with your Dad, and one all too common. I remember seeing my father twice. Once through a courthouse door window when he was on the stand. Someone held my eight year old self up to the window to see. He did not ask to see me that day that I know of. Wow, that sucks! Yes it is very common and still incomprehensible to me. I can't imagine being away from children during their childhood like that. No force on earth would keep me away. Yes the song is perfect for that. I read that when it was suggested to Sandy that her poem might make a good hit song she didn't think anyone but 45 year old men would be interested in it--not anticipating the hordes of abandoned children it would resonate with. It's a wound that can't be healed, just lived with. {{{hugs}}}
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Post by tapati on Jun 1, 2010 14:42:04 GMT -5
Oh, and Vyckie, my name in lower case appears just above my bio paragraph like it just got left in from the copy and paste.
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valsa
New Member
Posts: 46
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Post by valsa on Jun 1, 2010 15:08:26 GMT -5
Oh, daddy issues. How I know and loathe you.
This part of the story really hit close to home. My dad threw my mother and I out of our apartment when I was 14, so that he could move in the woman he'd been having an affair with, and her daughter. He only came to the first few court-ordered visitations he had with me. Despite being invited to my high school graduation (a big accomplishment seeing as I almost dropped out of high school due to bullying) he never showed up, then lied and said he'd gotten lost. He never visited me or even called to see how I was doing the only two times I've ever had surgery. When he got married to the woman he'd had an affair with, he lied to her and said he invited me, meaning that when I failed to show up she thought I just snubbed her. It was a "good" year when I saw my father once or twice, and this is when he lived in the same fairly small city as me. For the first year after my parents' separation, he lived in the same apartment complex as I did and I only saw him three times. Now he lives in Iowa (I'm in Michigan) and I doubt I'll ever see him again in person.
Tapati, when you wrote the line about not wanting to cry in front of a stranger, it felt like a blow to my heart because it's incredibly, sadly true. I had a conversation with my father about the issues we'd had and I cried during it. I kick myself every time I think about that day because I let myself cry. He took none of the responsibility for our strained relationship, which was mostly his doing (I'll fess up to my small part in the matter, but it is an extremely small part of the issue) By crying and showing emotion, I felt that much more violated when he refused to accept any responsibility, or apologize, for what he'd done to me.
I'm sorry you had to go through something similar. I'm sorry that far too many boys and girls seem to have strangers for fathers.
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Post by Sierra on Jun 1, 2010 15:22:23 GMT -5
This hit home for me in strange ways.
My dad abandoned my mother and me to lose our home and move into my grandparents' basement when he went off to live with another woman and her daughter. I didn't see much of him for a year. Then, having lost all of his money and gotten dumped by that woman and swindled out of his small business, he came back with his tail between his legs and my mother let him move back in.
I wish I'd never seen him again.
He proceeded to try to 'reconnect' with me in overbearing, manipulative and abusive ways until I left last year. He bought me things, then used them as leverage when I didn't show him affection. He told me my boyfriend would dump me and that I couldn't trust men, and that he was the only one who would 'protect' me. He told me that he had unbounded rights to me as I was 'his' daughter (a possession, apparently). He constantly set me up against my mother as evidence of his 'good genes', using me as a weapon to disparage her. When I protested, he turned on the rage and I spent many nights wondering if he wouldn't use one of his many guns or knives on me.
Through all of this, both he and my mother blamed my lack of a relationship with him on that year that he spent away from us. I was glad to be rid of him.
With my extended family, it's exactly as you describe, tapati. All superficial good will and no real caring. That became plain enough when my uncles abandoned my dying grandmother to my mother's care full time, and then accused my mother of freeloading off them because she moved in with my grandmother so as to be constantly available to the end. (They showed up every few days and brought KFC.) Not to mention the great aunt whom I'd never seen more than once every year or two who commanded me to forgive my father and invite him to my college graduation, then ignored my multiple emails telling her he was abusive. None of these people will ever be part of my life again.
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Post by cereselle on Jun 1, 2010 15:37:21 GMT -5
As far as the Cat Steven's song, I wince when I hear it. It reminds me of my husband's missionary father, who "hated...even his own children...for (Jesus) sake" and is surprised to find that his children don't really have time for him now that he would like a relationship. One minor nitpick-- it was Harry Chapin who sang that, not Cat Stevens. Cat sang "Father and Son," which also dealt with parent/child issues. (Also "Cat's In The Cradle" used to make me sob when I was a kid. So I don't like it.)
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Post by Ex-Adriel on Jun 1, 2010 15:40:58 GMT -5
[quote author=cereselle board=cradle thread=1126 post=15383 time=1275424641 (Also "Cat's In The Cradle" used to make me sob when I was a kid. So I don't like it.)[/quote] ... so I'm a big softie then, because I literally can not listen to that song without bawling like a child. Even now I have to change the radio station. And of course it gets stuck in my head, (like right now - thanks Tapati! ) so I'll probably have to go have a nice cry on my way home from work today.
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Post by tapati on Jun 2, 2010 7:59:41 GMT -5
Oh, daddy issues. How I know and loathe you. This part of the story really hit close to home. My dad threw my mother and I out of our apartment when I was 14, so that he could move in the woman he'd been having an affair with, and her daughter. He only came to the first few court-ordered visitations he had with me. Despite being invited to my high school graduation (a big accomplishment seeing as I almost dropped out of high school due to bullying) he never showed up, then lied and said he'd gotten lost. I never cease to be amazed by the lame excuses men can make for this shit. My ex didn't call my kids after the Loma Prieta earthquake. Big, traumatic experience and he didn't even call to see if they were all right. His excuse when he saw them 2 years later (only because of my son's severe brain injury)? "I lost your number." The devotee grapevine had him calling the waiting room at the hospital in just 20 minutes. How stupid do you think your kids are? It's insulting, that's what it is. Bad enough you aren't there--now don't insult our intelligence on top of it! There's just no excuse when you live that close. I can relate somewhat if Mom takes the kids and moves far away, but even then you can talk on the phone, send letters and cards (as I do with my grandsons) and see them during holidays or summer vacation. But when you're in the same small town, you've got to really NOT WANT to see your kid(s) if you don't make the time. That was my situation too and it sucked. I can see how horrible that must have felt and I was trying so hard to avoid it. In my mind, if I had asked why I think I'd have gotten an answer but it might not have worked out that way. That would have been even more disappointing. I guess it takes a big person to be able to admit their shortcomings and if they were that kind of person, they'd have been there in the first place, right? We grow up wondering if it was something wrong with us, but as an adult we can see that these men were just immature and indifferent because of their own character defects. It wouldn't have mattered if we were the greatest children who ever lived. It was easier to run away from the discomfort of the ex-wife, the sadness in their children's eyes, the difficult feelings on all sides, and pretend it didn't exist. Basically they were chickenshit.
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Post by tapati on Jun 2, 2010 8:06:55 GMT -5
This hit home for me in strange ways. My dad abandoned my mother and me to lose our home and move into my grandparents' basement when he went off to live with another woman and her daughter. I didn't see much of him for a year. Then, having lost all of his money and gotten dumped by that woman and swindled out of his small business, he came back with his tail between his legs and my mother let him move back in. A reason that painfully, obviously, had nothing to do with missing you. I am so sorry they've treated you so badly. It is sad when one's family is NO refuge, when you don't feel like you have any back up when things go wrong, anyone in your family who could at least provide a shoulder to cry on. Merely difficult families can be dealt with but families that don't care about your well being, will actively root for your failure, delight in your misfortune or are indifferent to it--those are the families we must leave for our own survival. That's when friends become family. I am so thankful for my friends!
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Post by tapati on Jun 2, 2010 8:08:30 GMT -5
As far as the Cat Steven's song, I wince when I hear it. It reminds me of my husband's missionary father, who "hated...even his own children...for (Jesus) sake" and is surprised to find that his children don't really have time for him now that he would like a relationship. One minor nitpick-- it was Harry Chapin who sang that, not Cat Stevens. Cat sang "Father and Son," which also dealt with parent/child issues. (Also "Cat's In The Cradle" used to make me sob when I was a kid. So I don't like it.) I'm sorry to remind you of it, though it was the perfect song to use for this. It started out as a poem by Sandy Chapin that Harry turned into a song with her permission.
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Post by tapati on Jun 2, 2010 8:11:02 GMT -5
[quote author=cereselle board=cradle thread=1126 post=15383 time=1275424641 (Also "Cat's In The Cradle" used to make me sob when I was a kid. So I don't like it.) ... so I'm a big softie then, because I literally can not listen to that song without bawling like a child. Even now I have to change the radio station. And of course it gets stuck in my head, (like right now - thanks Tapati! ) so I'll probably have to go have a nice cry on my way home from work today. [/quote] Sorry! I know my stories are going to bring up some painful memories for my readers. I just hope they also educate or at least plant a seed in the people who need to learn from them.
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Post by usotsuki on Jun 2, 2010 9:03:21 GMT -5
I'm sorry to remind you of it, though it was the perfect song to use for this. It started out as a poem by Sandy Chapin that Harry turned into a song with her permission. Ugly Kid Joe did a good version of the song too. Johnny Cash also recorded it (in the 80s, iirc). I have those versions and Harry Chapin's.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Jun 2, 2010 9:29:23 GMT -5
Oh, and Vyckie, my name in lower case appears just above my bio paragraph like it just got left in from the copy and paste. Thanks for bringing that to my attention, Tapati. There was supposed to be a picture of you there ~ but it didn't copy over right. I'm still using John's computer since I don't have mine fixed yet ~ so things don't work quite like I'm used to. Anyway ~ I got it taken care of now. This post has really struck a nerve with me ~ a painful one ~ ouch. I can't really say much about it on this public forum, but since it's a sensitive topic for me, I'm sharing some of my thoughts in "Vyckie's Speakeasy" ~ wish I could say more here because I'd love to get more interaction and really have it out on this subject ~ but, I can't since I kind of suspect that my dad's wife reads this forum. Anyway ~ yes, it is hard and it hurts. Tapati ~ I really could relate to your anguish as I read about the visit with your father.
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Post by tapati on Jun 2, 2010 10:34:51 GMT -5
Oh, and Vyckie, my name in lower case appears just above my bio paragraph like it just got left in from the copy and paste. Thanks for bringing that to my attention, Tapati. There was supposed to be a picture of you there ~ but it didn't copy over right. I'm still using John's computer since I don't have mine fixed yet ~ so things don't work quite like I'm used to. Anyway ~ I got it taken care of now. This post has really struck a nerve with me ~ a painful one ~ ouch. I can't really say much about it on this public forum, but since it's a sensitive topic for me, I'm sharing some of my thoughts in "Vyckie's Speakeasy" ~ wish I could say more here because I'd love to get more interaction and really have it out on this subject ~ but, I can't since I kind of suspect that my dad's wife reads this forum. Anyway ~ yes, it is hard and it hurts. Tapati ~ I really could relate to your anguish as I read about the visit with your father. I can't read that section since I haven't made any recent cash donations. I'm so broke that I've also started seeking donations to cover my medical expenses (paypal button on my blog at livejournal). My cortisone shot is costing us 300 bucks and my endoscopy cost 150.00, and I need a new cpap mask and hose and a new back cushion (I realized my old one is from the late 80s)! It is like a huge gaping wound in our society. While there are absent mothers, too, there is so much social pressure on mothers that even when a mom is totally burned out and wishes she could escape, the shame would be insurmountable. (Which, I imagine, is a great set up for child abuse. Burned out parents ought to be able to get respite care or something.) I see a lot of TV shows with ongoing plots about absent fathers, shows such as Grey's Anatomy and In Plain Sight. Then there's the strained relationship between Peter Bishop and his father, Walter, which turns out to be even more complex than he realized. (I won't spoil it in case someone wants to rent and catch up on the series.) Our parents matter and when one abandons us we can't help but feel rejected and wonder why they didn't care, what was wrong with us, and so on. That one abandonment can affect our relationships for the rest of our lives. The end of every relationship brings up those same feelings. The fear of losing people can haunt us.
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Post by margybargy on Jun 2, 2010 14:44:26 GMT -5
I'm a "Fringe" fan, too.
I read somewhere that of all forms of child mistreatment, abandonment has the most profound and long-lasting effects.
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Post by anatheist on Jun 2, 2010 15:29:13 GMT -5
Thank you for continuing your story Tapati!
I was hoping that you wouldn't mind answering a few questions I had not directly related to this installment, but to your overall experience.
First, you mentioned previously that Krishna was a personal god, spoken about in similar ways as many Christians speak of Jesus. Can you elaborate on what having a personal relationship meant to you? Despite having grown up Christian, it's still a totally foreign experience to me. And then, if you believed that Krishna was a real and personal being, what happened to your belief after you left ISKCON? I know that you're no longer an adherent, but did you decide that Krishna was no longer real? Or that he was evil if he would promote abuse among his worshipers? Or do you believe something different now?
Second, do you believe now that Krishna Consciousness inherently contains abuse and inequality, or that the religion may still be separated from those who abuse it? It's easy to see why it's attractive. If an American were interested in Krishna, would you tell him to stay away from any of it because it's all bad, or would you just warn him to not become involved in anything coercive or uncomfortable or to trust his own spiritual practice in worship? Because in Christianity, there are many sexist passages in the Bible, but one can still be a practicing Christian and belong to a church without accepting them as literal, or as explaining them as belonging to a certain time period and context, or as simply ignoring them. Is there any such movement in ISKCON?
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Post by tapati on Jun 2, 2010 15:49:09 GMT -5
I'm a "Fringe" fan, too. I read somewhere that of all forms of child mistreatment, abandonment has the most profound and long-lasting effects. I can imagine that being true--certainly abandonment by a parent has more of a psychological effect on me than either the physical or verbal abuse by my ex. It's a primal thing. It happens when you haven't developed defenses to cope with it. Then on the other hand I had my mom's neediness and total lack of boundaries. One parent abandoned; another parent joined at the hip. Ugh.
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Post by tapati on Jun 2, 2010 16:07:42 GMT -5
Thank you for continuing your story Tapati! I was hoping that you wouldn't mind answering a few questions I had not directly related to this installment, but to your overall experience. First, you mentioned previously that Krishna was a personal god, spoken about in similar ways as many Christians speak of Jesus. Can you elaborate on what having a personal relationship meant to you? Despite having grown up Christian, it's still a totally foreign experience to me. And then, if you believed that Krishna was a real and personal being, what happened to your belief after you left ISKCON? I know that you're no longer an adherent, but did you decide that Krishna was no longer real? Or that he was evil if he would promote abuse among his worshipers? Or do you believe something different now? I don't believe, first of all, that Krsna was the one promoting abuse. The men in the movement are responsible for that. Nothing in Bhagavad Gita suggested that women be beaten. Sure, as an ancient scripture BG and all of the other books promoted a cultural view that existed at that time, one we've outgrown. But there were no direct quotes from Krsna that one should beat women! I, personally, believe that whatever people's beliefs about a Deity are, they are separate from the reality (if such exists). So each culture has a name and attributes according to their creation stories and so on, and build a religion around it that fits their culture and societal needs. If indeed there is a Deity, I don't believe such a person cares about all of these individual, cultural differences like we humans do. So in my experience, I've been having a relationship with ONE person and as I switched cultures I simply changed the name I was calling that person as my understanding changed. I felt the exact same relationship throughout. So just as a teen, when I prayed every night in a conversational manner, I continued that tone when I was a devotee. God, to me, was a PERSON and I talked to that person all the time. The emphasis on that in the Hare Krsna movement really appealed to me. I've kept that sense as I moved on since it fit the mood I already had developed. (Some would say "rasa.") If you ever watched Lady Hawke? www.imdb.com/title/tt0089457/Matthew Broderick's character is a thief who talks to God constantly and humorously. It's one of the delights of the movie. That was very familiar to me. Now, currently I don't believe God is factually a blue guy who makes love to all the cowherd girls and steals butter in his child form...my notion of God has changed quite a bit. But that sense of personhood and relationship has remained with me and I believe that person tolerated my illusions about the blue God...in fact such a Person can appear as He or She likes to enable a devotee to relate according to their culture. The cultural trappings are our hangup, not the Deity's. (I believe God contains both masculine and feminine qualities.) I would say that outside of ISKCON there are those who look at scripture more critically and as a product of its time. There are still plenty who believe it should all be taken literally including the whole bit about women being "protected" and so on. I am out of the business of giving spiritual advice for or against any one path. If pressed--and I have been pressed--I just remind them that temple authorities are human and fallible and to trust their gut if anything feels wrong to them.
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Post by km on Jun 2, 2010 16:58:01 GMT -5
Then there's the strained relationship between Peter Bishop and his father, Walter, which turns out to be even more complex than he realized. (I won't spoil it in case someone wants to rent and catch up on the series.) Oooh, Fringe is so so good. I can really relate to all the father stuff too. My dad bailed on the family in selfish ways for many years... Recently, he made a big show of trying to make up for that... Opened up his basement apartment to me while I looked for a job. And then did nothing when his wife beat me and broke my thumb one night. (For those that don't know, I have a physical disability that makes me quite a bit weaker than most 30 year olds. I wasn't sufficiently able to defend myself.) I ended up having to file a police report--and leaving in the middle of the night with a police escort. I've since told him that I don't blame his wife for our estrangement. I blame him and his cowardice and laziness and inability to stand up for anything. For those of you who didn't know... There are reasons why passive men (and people in general) freak me the hell out. I now know that Brad in the other thread didn't deserve to be yelled at as if he was my father. But, yeah...
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Post by margybargy on Jun 2, 2010 17:18:05 GMT -5
I can really relate to all the father stuff too. My dad bailed on the family in selfish ways for many years... Recently, he made a big show of trying to make up for that... Opened up his basement apartment to me while I looked for a job. And then did nothing when his wife beat me and broke my thumb one night. (For those that don't know, I have a physical disability that makes me quite a bit weaker than most 30 year olds. I wasn't sufficiently able to defend myself.) I ended up having to file a police report--and leaving in the middle of the night with a police escort. I've since told him that I don't blame his wife for our estrangement. I blame him and his cowardice and laziness and inability to stand up for anything. For those of you who didn't know... There are reasons why passive men (and people in general) freak me the hell out. I now know that Brad in the other thread didn't deserve to be yelled at as if he was my father. But, yeah... I'm sorry you had to go through all that. How terrible. I hope your situation is much improved. I wouldn't say that passive people freak me out, but I do have a tendency not to trust them. You never know if they mean what they say or if they're just trying to avoid a confrontation. It can be frustrating. Just trying to say I think I get where you're coming from.
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Post by nikita on Jun 2, 2010 17:34:05 GMT -5
KM - Yeah, I hope you are doing better. That is such a betrayal of trust. I'm glad you called the police on 'em.
I was married to a passive/non-confrontational man for years and it was probably the most frustrating period of my life. I finally couldn't take it any more and we divorced. He is now remarried to a very loud controlling woman who has better results with him. I was trying to get him to take a more leadership role but my glares and threats to kill him in his sleep were not sufficient to rein him in apparently.
He is basically a very nice man, great moral sense, took his vows very seriously, never strayed, etc. But in the day to day interactions you could not trust a thing he said because he just agreed to stop conversation and avoid difficulties. His word, in daily things, meant absolutely nothing. He honestly believed that he could make the most solemn promise to do this or not do that and then five minutes later break it because he 'changed his mind'. Just that simple, just that easy. And your subsequent rage is 'your problem'. It's passivity with a giant 'eff you' on top. So when I get a whiff of that kind of thing in other people it sets off rockets of reaction deep within me and all I can do is back up and trace where the heavy emotion is coming from.
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