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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Jul 3, 2010 10:57:21 GMT -5
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Post by dangermom on Jul 3, 2010 11:41:57 GMT -5
So Cecilia was quite the liar. Wish I had time to comment, we're heading out of town, but thank you for the chapter, as always I can't wait for more--but I'm dreading it!
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Post by humbletigger on Jul 3, 2010 14:28:32 GMT -5
Oh I am really hoping that when you googled Bill Gothard you found out he was a cult leader with a long-standing reputation for ruining people's lives.
If there is a hell, that's where Bill Gothard will spend eternity. No way a loving God could stomach such pride and arrogance and callous disregard for the lives he's ruined. Not a loving God.
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autumn
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Post by autumn on Jul 3, 2010 14:38:51 GMT -5
Rut Ro Astro! Now we wait to find out what Shelly makes of her Google search on Bill Gothard!!
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Post by usotsuki on Jul 3, 2010 15:04:55 GMT -5
I see the idea that he never had a family of his own set off all sorts of alarm bells - as well it should have.
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phatchick
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Post by phatchick on Jul 3, 2010 18:42:05 GMT -5
Yeah, I've always found it a little amusing that a single middle aged man with no kids, who, IIRC, lived with his parents their entire lives, is giving advice about marriage and family. Reminds me of something a friend of mine once said, "never eat in a diner that has a skinny cook."
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Post by cindy on Jul 3, 2010 19:27:22 GMT -5
The manner in which Shelly was invited to attend the Bill Gothard conference was strikingly similar to how my husband and I were railroaded into going to a local conference. The guy who lead our homegroup (mid-week cell group) decided to give up his own group and wanted another couple and us to take it over together. He insisted that it was important that we attend IBLP because of the training in leadership that we would get, or that is what I'd read into his suggestions that we go. I had no idea that we were being groomed...
I wish that, like Shelly, the conference had been a long distance away, or we would have likely not gone. It was only a 45 minute drive for us, and we had no kids to watch.
We were new to the area and new at the church, and we wanted friends. I thought that these people were offering friendship and desired to get to know us personally, but we were just marks for the cult. This promise of friendship and belonging is a very powerful thing, and we were pulled right into it all. I would not realize the truth about it until years later.
I strongly identify with Shelly's confusion about suddenly not being important anymore. Were these people ever friends, or were they just working me over? How much of it was genuine? Was any genuine? I'll never know.
Just as Cecilia lost out when she found Shelly suddenly less important as a friend, I think these people I knew definitely lost out on a good friendship, too. But that is hard to arrive at when you're in the middle of the process.
Sad.
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Post by juliacat on Jul 3, 2010 19:51:59 GMT -5
Aaaggghhh, every time I read an installment, I want the next one MORE!
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Post by cherylannhannah on Jul 3, 2010 21:00:39 GMT -5
About 22 years ago one of the ladies in my then church offered to pay for me to attend the Bill Gothard seminar. I was unable to go. Glad to have dodged that bullet now!
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Post by arietty on Jul 3, 2010 22:02:26 GMT -5
I felt like the dinner you went to just hours before you moved away was their last ditch effort to turn you into people like them. When they did not get the kind of feedback that would indicate they were on the road to success they cut you off. Sending the baby photo was probably obligatory witnessing on her part, "look God has blessed me with my gazillionth child.." (and maybe the people she sends it to would be inspired to reproduce themselves).
I really sympathize with you Shelley, it is painful stuff to read and I think many of us have gotten sucked into faux friendships like this whether it is religion or Amway as the goal, lol. (I personally hate, yes hate, the way I've been used in the past by people calling me out of the blue and acting for 30 minutes on the phone like they care about me and want to connect only to sting me with the Amway invitation at the end of it. I have promised myself that the next time this happens I will blast the person with exactly what I think of these tactics.)
It brought back a lot of memories. That odd feeling of being shunned right there in the middle of a conversation because I said something that registered as ungodly to the women I was with, the struggle to fit in when the rules were so hidden.
It sounds like Cecelia didn't have a lot of friends despite all her going to conferences.. maybe that was an element for her too, trying to create an acceptable friend for herself, but you just didn't comply the way she wanted.
And the way the children answered the phone! JUST WEIRD by any standards.
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Post by anyabananya on Jul 3, 2010 22:20:34 GMT -5
I'm delurking to note that calling the dominant partner "Sir" is not unheard of in BDSM circles.
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Post by Ex-Adriel on Jul 4, 2010 10:01:41 GMT -5
Following up that one with the startling revelation that I call my husband by the Japanese honorific meaning 'highly esteemed honored sir.' (roughly) So, if my husband were named James (he isn't) he is 'James-sama' to me when we're talking to each other or about each other with friends. ;D Yep it's cheesy, yep it raises eyebrows among people who know Japanese. What's really funny is that it's started a trend - now all our friends call him that as well. Thinking about it, it can also be a cultural thing - most actual Japanese people refer to their spouses as Name-san (san means honored person - again roughly) even in casual conversation. I don't see anything wrong with using a verbal marker to remind you how much you love and respect someone - especially if it turns into an in-joke along the way and you laugh about it even while you're using it. Only other point is that I decided to call him that - mostly as a cute pet-name. I really do respect and honor him, but that's not why I started callling him by that name. If he TOLD me to call him that, or hinted strongly that I should respect him more, he'd be in for a lot of teasing until he got his ego back under control again.
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Post by coleslaw on Jul 4, 2010 10:25:16 GMT -5
I guess calling your husband "sir" is a good way of making sure you don't call out the wrong name by mistake in an intimate moment. Although Miss Manners prefers "darling" for that purpose.
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Post by lg61820 on Jul 4, 2010 10:33:50 GMT -5
Oh, what a nice holiday treat to find this post from Shelly!
I can see how the Gothard message could be seductive. . . "you can have a loving, devoted husband. You can have charming, obedient children" It's what a lot of us dream about. If we haven't got exactly that we are in danger of falling for his message.
I've never heard him speak, but I can see how someone might get sucked in to his world. When I was raising some very "hard to handle" children with a reserved, somewhat uninvolved husband I could have fallen hard for it. LG
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Post by amyrose on Jul 4, 2010 10:44:34 GMT -5
The whole business about you needing to attend Gothard's seminar to improve your marriage reminds me of a story a friend of mine told me. She and her husband were quite happily married and their pastor convinced them that they weren't and that they needed to attend some marriage conference. It wasn't as crazy as Gothard but was the whole "men want respect not love" and "women want love not respect" song and dance. My friend and her husband went and tried really hard to take it seriously and spent two months with a miserable marriage afterwards until they realized that the marriage conference's crap was ruining their previously happy marriage. They sat down and decided to pretend they'd never heard that garbage and went back to the way they were before and all was well again.
I have a feeling a Gothard seminar could do a lot more damage than that to a happy marriage!!
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maicde
Junior Member
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Post by maicde on Jul 4, 2010 14:16:11 GMT -5
After reading all of these horror stories of ATI/Bill Gothard ruining the relationships of families, husbands and wives - how is it possible that there are still Bill Gothard adherants?
Secondly, to Shelly: was your husband's prior legalistic religion, Seventh Day Adventism? Just asking because this is the religion I grew up in. Stopped attending 25+ years ago.
Back to Cecelia, as usual, she continues to make me sick with pseudo "womanhood" she portrays: (1) be a fundie stepford wife for husband and (2) be a fundie baby-making factory.
One thing that I would like to know for sure is what happened to Cecelia, her husband, and most of all, the CHILDREN.
I look forward to reading your next installment. Thank you for sharing.
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phatchick
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Post by phatchick on Jul 4, 2010 14:22:46 GMT -5
I guess calling your husband "sir" is a good way of making sure you don't call out the wrong name by mistake in an intimate moment. Although Miss Manners prefers "darling" for that purpose. {SPEW} 'scuse me while I mop off the keyboard.
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Post by ShellyC on Jul 4, 2010 16:56:52 GMT -5
After reading all of these horror stories of ATI/Bill Gothard ruining the relationships of families, husbands and wives - how is it possible that there are still Bill Gothard adherants? Secondly, to Shelly: was your husband's prior legalistic religion, Seventh Day Adventism? Just asking because this is the religion I grew up in. Stopped attending 25+ years ago. Back to Cecelia, as usual, she continues to make me sick with pseudo "womanhood" she portrays: (1) be a fundie stepford wife for husband and (2) be a fundie baby-making factory. One thing that I would like to know for sure is what happened to Cecelia, her husband, and most of all, the CHILDREN. I look forward to reading your next installment. Thank you for sharing. I think there are obviously still thousands of families who have never heard of Bill Gothard. The type that get sucked into the spiders web, do not spend much time online, so therefore, never have the motivation/thoughts.. to Google, etc. This is what I have been told anyways....It makes sense, I suppose. My DH left the Pentacostal movement in his late teens and sees them as a cult now. I am familer with the Seventh Day Advitist as well..However, Some folks even consider them a cult. I guess it is who you ask. I think if any movement is trying to conform you to "their ways" it is rather cultish. I think things should fall into place naturally..Nothing should be forced on you. Oh, and I finally found Ceclias phone and address online. I have not called. I do have the page bookmarked though..*blush* I really have no idea what to say if I do call. It appears they are still in the same state, but have a different address.
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Post by freefromtyranny on Jul 4, 2010 18:53:46 GMT -5
How long has it been Shelly? It might be interesting to see if she is still doing the ATI thing or if she escaped.
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Post by ShellyC on Jul 4, 2010 18:57:36 GMT -5
The last I talked to her by phone was back in 2006. I think it was December. In my gut, she is probably still doing the whole ATI thing..but who knows for sure. Will she one day end up here?...and hate me forever! ;D
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Post by loverofpurple on Jul 5, 2010 3:09:16 GMT -5
You've done a great job with this series! I've waited anxiously for each new installment.
What a relief that you never got sucked into the Bill Gothard nonsense.
I've been familiar with Gothard since my mom attended a seminar years ago. Thankfully my dad wasn't even on board with going to church with us at that time.
How very strange that he has never married, but has a complete obsession with dictating to families how to run every aspect of their lives. He must be on one colossal power trip. It's plain weird that so many people follow him, glassy eyed and robotic. : ( What rude arrogance from Cecilia's husband. He sounds really creepy!!
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Post by usotsuki on Jul 5, 2010 6:03:14 GMT -5
BRAAAAAAAAAAAAINS! BRAAAAAAAAAAINS! *skulks around with arms out, hands limp and eyes glazed over* ...uh what? *blink blink* sorry, got carried away there. xD
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Post by km on Jul 5, 2010 7:52:40 GMT -5
How very strange that he has never married, but has a complete obsession with dictating to families how to run every aspect of their lives. He must be on one colossal power trip. I think I heard something about a possible affair (affairs?) between him and a married woman on the ATIA staff. Also stories about him getting caught up in sexual harrassment problems with younger ATIA females. Was there any truth to that? It came up once when I was in google-mode, and I can't honestly remember the source...
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Post by Sierra on Jul 5, 2010 9:42:19 GMT -5
Shelly, I'm wondering how your children felt about their relationship with Cecelia's. I distinctly remember feeling unease and frustration dealing with fundamentalist children, especially within the legalistic families (yes, there was a spectrum of legalism even in my scary Branham church). They did not seem like whole people to me, and they made me feel inferior and dirty all at once. I actually remember calling a family for my mom on one occasion and being alarmed and hurt when one of the children answered the phone the way you describe. It was like they had forgotten me entirely. Disturbing. Oh, and that 'sir' crap? Ick, ick, ick.
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Post by ShellyC on Jul 5, 2010 10:21:50 GMT -5
Shelly, I'm wondering how your children felt about their relationship with Cecelia's. Oh, and that 'sir' crap? Ick, ick, ick. My oldest was only 8 at the time and the others were 6,1.5,and 5 months old. I only had 2 kids when I first met Cecilia. My 2 oldest, are 12, and 14 now. They actually miss Cecilias girls, and ask me about them often. My girls are still very old fashion in allot of ways....that is who they are though. They are happy to wear a jumper one day and an outfit from Forever 21 the next day. lol My 12 yr old is just getting into make-up too, but my 14 yr old hates the thought of junk on her face. I would have frowned at that a couple years ago, but am now finding it neat to get back in touch with who I am too, so join in. They still like the whole, "Little House on the Prairie lifestyle" and always had great fun doing skits and having tea parties out in the barns with Cecilias kids. I guess in a way, I am thankful that they have all good memories. kwim? I just want them to be who God created them each to be, not who I conformed them to be. I think there is a real difference between guiding, and walking along side your kids, while holding their hand...(This is a good thing to me.) AND, dictating to them who they ought to be, with a rod in your hand. (Bad thing) Hope that made sense.
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