|
Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Aug 23, 2010 8:25:17 GMT -5
Tomorrow’s episode (Aug. 24) of 19 Kids and Counting ~ 12 Kids with Chicken Pox nolongerquivering.comTime for another Live Tweet of the Duggars?! Guess I'll have to see how things are going with the kids tomorrow night ~ if I have a chance, I'll try to Tweet the show.
|
|
|
Post by dorayp on Aug 23, 2010 12:05:05 GMT -5
I had to laugh through the part where all the camera men were calling their mothers to find out if they'd had the Chicken Pox. ;D. Coincidentally, my youngest got her Booster for the Chicken Pox today. I don't regret it one bit.
Dorinda
|
|
|
Post by chbernat on Aug 23, 2010 12:29:05 GMT -5
WOW. That's all I have to say. Wow.
Doesn't it seem that it borders on insanity to not vaccinate your little ones against this stuff when a) you have a preemie in the home and b) you have such a large family that things spread very quickly? To me it seems to be a complete lack of wisdom and concern for every member of this large family structure.
I know that with our preemie, we were very much encouraged to get the flu shots, etc. I wonder if they will even consider the risk that it poses to Josie that she is so vulnerable? And for the sake of an ideology, is it really fair to the other little ones that don't have Mommy around to care for them because she is living in another house keeping the other baby quarantined?
Such insanity! Also, on a side note, did anyone see the cover of PEOPLE MAGAZINE with Jim Bob and Michelle on it stating that, "they were ready to be blessed with more children." ?! I thought surely after Josie was born, they would stop and use the wisdom that 19 is enough and not to subject another innocent tiny baby to a health-compromised start in life. I actually pity them.
|
|
|
Post by synesthesia on Aug 23, 2010 13:40:24 GMT -5
That cover tends to pester me as they have a micro premature child who needs all of their attention. This is not the time to plan baby # 20 when baby # 19 needs all of their attention.
And how are they going to have all of those kids with chicken pox around a child with special needs? I should like to get Cordova the seal to yell at them.
|
|
|
Post by teach2010 on Aug 23, 2010 18:42:59 GMT -5
Now this is just ridiculous! What else are they not immunized against? Polio, diptheria, measles, whooping cough? I'm old enough to remember the days before the polio, measles, and whooping cough immunizations (and I remember the quarantine signs, as well), and how frightened my own parents were that I might get either one of these diseases.
|
|
|
Post by fabucat on Aug 23, 2010 20:22:21 GMT -5
I understand that people who either are very, very, very, very, very conservative or are very, very, very, very, very liberal who don't vaccinate their kids because they believe that it causes autism, or that vaccinations are a conspiracy to make big pharma richer.
Vaccinations aren't perfect, of course, but I think that people who don't vaccinate their children are public menaces. I know that that's a harsh assessment, but hear me out. It's one thing when a childless adult doesn't get herself vaccinated. A lot of adults have immunity against these illnesses. When people don't get their children vaccinated, they are putting their children at risk. Measles and whooping cough are making comebacks and they can cause permanent damage or even death. In addition, even people like the Duggars who homeschool their children, put other children and adults at risk.
No doubt these children go out in public at some point or another, whether it's the playground or at Chuck-E-Cheese's.
I think that unvaccinated kids are a form of germ warfare.
|
|
|
Post by fabucat on Aug 23, 2010 20:38:09 GMT -5
That cover tends to pester me as they have a micro premature child who needs all of their attention. This is not the time to plan baby # 20 when baby # 19 needs all of their attention. And how are they going to have all of those kids with chicken pox around a child with special needs? I should like to get Cordova the seal to yell at them. I understand the Quiverfull philosophy and all, but if these folks REALLY, REALLY want a huge family, they could give Mom's uterus a rest and adopt. No offense to folks with big families, my mom's family numbers 7, but when you want to replicate yourselves twenty times and maybe beyond, I think that you might have a case of severe narcissism. I understand that chances are, the kids most available for adoption aren't going to be white. That hasn't stopped other very conservative families. I know that they're not Quiverfull, but Sen. McCain and his wife adopted a girl from Bangladesh. Last January, there were dozens of middle American, mostly white American families who adopted little Haitian children orphaned by the earthquake. I think that folks who have the desire and the money to have really big families, and there ARE advantages to growing up in a big family, might want to consider adoption after having some children naturally. Maybe I'm crazy, but I think it would be amazing if some of these folks gave mom a rest, and took in some children who really needed a home. Just a thought.
|
|
|
Post by fabucat on Aug 23, 2010 20:46:16 GMT -5
I had to laugh through the part where all the camera men were calling their mothers to find out if they'd had the Chicken Pox. ;D. Coincidentally, my youngest got her Booster for the Chicken Pox today. I don't regret it one bit. Dorinda The cameramen had to call their moms to find out if they'd already had chicken pox? I thought that anyone who had chicken pox never forgot it. I never have forgotten. My brother and I got it at the same time. I was sick for two weeks and my bro' had such a bad case, he had chicken pox in his throat. This was before there was a vaccine. Now I realize the person who really suffered was my mom! I guess that Mrs. Duggar is just going to smile and say that's it's a blessing in disguise. Seriously, I think that Ma Duggar has the right to lock herself up in a room and engage in some primal scream therapy for a few minutes to let off steam.
|
|
|
Post by Emily on Aug 23, 2010 20:51:31 GMT -5
I can say, I am one of those statistics. The whooping cough vaccine almost killed me, and my brother. If I had had the booster as the doctor at the time advised, it would have. I don't know the details but it was something about the lining of the brain. This isn't self diagnosis either, this is coming from a doctor we recieved a second opinion from. Our childhood doctor later in life, a vaccination supporter like most doctors, actually refused to give certain vaccines to my other sisters because of the reaction we had.
I also have aspergers syndrome, a mild form of Autism. Whether this is coincidence or not, you can decide for yourselves.
Vaccines are not as safe as doctors tell you. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I don't think it's a money grab (well, no more than other drugs on the market, antibiotic courses for colds for example, it's all a business in the end after all) but I know for a fact they shouldn't be taken at face value. Because of my experience I've met others who have had reactions. One had a similar reaction to me, also an aspie. One is now severely epileptic, caused by the vaccine as diagnosed by a specialist. I know of one child who, now as adult, is severely brain damaged, I believe that was from his 4yo shots. If they were born with these issues, the parents would have known earlier.
Don't get me wrong, 99% of children will have vaccines and have no, or minor, effects, sore arms, fevers, etc. But is it worth the risk of being in that one percent, especially when we know so little about them? We don't know if reactions are genetic, if I reacted whether my children will, I know my brother and I had a matching reaction which indicates to me there is a genetic trait there somewhere. But doctors are so stuck on telling us they're safe, they won't research people like me, they deny we exist.
As for the chicken pox vaccine, among those that believe vaccines can cause problems, chicken pox is considered one of the most dangerous for the autism link. Considering chicken pox is a childhood disease that really poses very little threat, just discomfort, and those that have severe cases now have access to medical help that people 50 years ago didn't, it seems like an unnececary risk to many people. The risk of dying or having severe complications from chicken pox actually becomes smaller than the risk of a severe reaction to the vaccine. Difference is, getting help for a vaccine reaction is a whole lot harder, as doctors like to deny its even an issue.
As for children that aren't vaccinated, I don't quite understand your personal issues with it. If vaccines work, your vaccinated children are perfectly safe, the only ones at risk are those who are not vaccinated, and they know they're taking that risk by not vaccinating in the first place, it's their choice. We don't put your children in danger, provided the vaccines do as they're supposed to. If you're worried about your children getting ill despite being vaccinated, then perhaps you need to question why you're vaccinating in the first place.
|
|
|
Post by fabucat on Aug 23, 2010 20:52:43 GMT -5
Now this is just ridiculous! What else are they not immunized against? Polio, diptheria, measles, whooping cough? I'm old enough to remember the days before the polio, measles, and whooping cough immunizations (and I remember the quarantine signs, as well), and how frightened my own parents were that I might get either one of these diseases. My thoughts exactly. You know UNICEF thought that polio was wiped out. Then some crazy Islamists took over a part of Nigeria and told the mothers that vaccines were a Western plot to kill Muslim kids. Then lo and behold, there was an outbreak of polio in that part of Nigeria. Some children died and others were permanently disabled. Are vaccinations against the Duggar's religion?
|
|
|
Post by ambrosia on Aug 23, 2010 21:42:48 GMT -5
As for children that aren't vaccinated, I don't quite understand your personal issues with it. If vaccines work, your vaccinated children are perfectly safe, the only ones at risk are those who are not vaccinated, and they know they're taking that risk by not vaccinating in the first place, it's their choice. We don't put your children in danger, provided the vaccines do as they're supposed to. If you're worried about your children getting ill despite being vaccinated, then perhaps you need to question why you're vaccinating in the first place. Oh.for.pity's.sake!! In small communities in states from Washington and Colorado to Vermont and Michigan, vaccine skeptics are drilling wide holes in herd immunity, leaving others at risk, the scientists said.
"Wherever we have looked, we have found pockets of unimmunized people associated with outbreaks," said Dr. Saad B. Omer, an assistant professor with Emory University's Rollins School of Public Health, who has studied vaccination rates extensively.
On Thursday, government health officials reported that the number of measles cases in the U.S. has reached its highest level in over a decade, with nearly half the cases involving children whose parents object to immunizations. www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26291109 An outbreak of the mumps in the Fraser Valley has prompted health officials to warn people to make sure they are immunized against the disease.
As thousands of children prepare to head back to school, the outbreak, which began in a religious community, has already spread westward into Metro Vancouver — as far as Burnaby.
There have been 116 confirmed cases of mumps and another 74 suspected cases since February, according to the Fraser Health Authority. On average, the region has only 10 cases a year. www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/08/26/bc-mumps-outbreak-spread.html So there is a huge potential source of pertussis, omnipresent, presenting atypically, at least as far as whooping cough is concerned, ready to kill. Maximizing immunity in children and boosting immunity in adults is the only way to control pertussis: Herd immunity.
With pertussis, while herd immunity may help prevent disease spread, because it is a bacteria and can be present without causing illness, the herd immunity rates required to prevent the spread of disease are much higher than needed for viruses. Immunity rates needed to protect the population from pertussis are about 94%, while virus spread is decreased if immunity rates are only 80% or so. More of the population can be vaccine slackers and not be at risk for a viral illness, but not pertussis. www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=516 This is precisely why everyone who can vaccinate must vaccinate. There will be people who can't be vaccinated, whether due to suppressed immune systems or sensitivity, so to keep them safe, there should be no sources for the infection. My mother almost died of pertussis because, despite having her shots up-to-date, she contracted it from an unvaccinated child she was caring for when she worked in a hospital years ago. As a result of that, nearly any time she gets a cold, she ends up with pneumonia (she's in her 80s). As for the mmr/autism link, how many times does it have to be repeated: that study (ONE STUDY) has been completely discredited.
|
|
|
Post by seattlegirl on Aug 23, 2010 22:28:30 GMT -5
Look at it from the Duggars point of view: they dodged a bullet, a few days different in the timing and baby Josie would have been home with all those kids coming down with Chicken pox. She could very well have died. But God has once again shown that they are special and nothing bad will ever happen to them.
They probably won't vaccinate for measles and chichen pox because there is a rumor going around in pro-life circles that the vaccines are made from dead baby parts. (yes really)
You see these vaccines are made from weakened viruses that must be grown in human cells. The cell lines that are used were isolated in the 1960s from fetal tissue from abortions. So determined are pro-lifers that nothing good should ever come from abortions, they would rather forgo vaccines and the lives saved and misery avoided, than benefit from an abortion that happened nearly 50 years ago.
|
|
|
Post by ambrosia on Aug 23, 2010 22:51:09 GMT -5
Penn & Teller on vaccination www.megavideo.com/?v=ED2FU88BWarning: language may offend (it's Penn & Teller after all. The demonstration in the first 1.5 minutes pretty much sums it up.
|
|
|
Post by fabucat on Aug 24, 2010 8:38:09 GMT -5
I can say, I am one of those statistics. The whooping cough vaccine almost killed me, and my brother. If I had had the booster as the doctor at the time advised, it would have. I don't know the details but it was something about the lining of the brain. This isn't self diagnosis either, this is coming from a doctor we recieved a second opinion from. Our childhood doctor later in life, a vaccination supporter like most doctors, actually refused to give certain vaccines to my other sisters because of the reaction we had. I also have aspergers syndrome, a mild form of Autism. Whether this is coincidence or not, you can decide for yourselves. Vaccines are not as safe as doctors tell you. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I don't think it's a money grab (well, no more than other drugs on the market, antibiotic courses for colds for example, it's all a business in the end after all) but I know for a fact they shouldn't be taken at face value. Because of my experience I've met others who have had reactions. One had a similar reaction to me, also an aspie. One is now severely epileptic, caused by the vaccine as diagnosed by a specialist. I know of one child who, now as adult, is severely brain damaged, I believe that was from his 4yo shots. If they were born with these issues, the parents would have known earlier. Don't get me wrong, 99% of children will have vaccines and have no, or minor, effects, sore arms, fevers, etc. But is it worth the risk of being in that one percent, especially when we know so little about them? We don't know if reactions are genetic, if I reacted whether my children will, I know my brother and I had a matching reaction which indicates to me there is a genetic trait there somewhere. But doctors are so stuck on telling us they're safe, they won't research people like me, they deny we exist. As for the chicken pox vaccine, among those that believe vaccines can cause problems, chicken pox is considered one of the most dangerous for the autism link. Considering chicken pox is a childhood disease that really poses very little threat, just discomfort, and those that have severe cases now have access to medical help that people 50 years ago didn't, it seems like an unnececary risk to many people. The risk of dying or having severe complications from chicken pox actually becomes smaller than the risk of a severe reaction to the vaccine. Difference is, getting help for a vaccine reaction is a whole lot harder, as doctors like to deny its even an issue. As for children that aren't vaccinated, I don't quite understand your personal issues with it. If vaccines work, your vaccinated children are perfectly safe, the only ones at risk are those who are not vaccinated, and they know they're taking that risk by not vaccinating in the first place, it's their choice. We don't put your children in danger, provided the vaccines do as they're supposed to. If you're worried about your children getting ill despite being vaccinated, then perhaps you need to question why you're vaccinating in the first place. The medical establishment has to develop genetic tests to determine which people might have a harmful reaction to various vaccines. One has to weigh the benefits with the costs of treatment. I'll give you an example (which doesn't involve vaccines) : I've got gluten intolerance, which means that I can't eat bread. 3% of the population shares my condition. Should everyone, therefore, be advised not to eat bread? I'd say "no," because bread is good for the vast majority of people. And yet it was bread and other foods containing gluten that almost killed me. Chicken pox may be more of a nuisance disease than, say, polio which can kill and injure. Still, if a child is chronically ill or premature, chicken pox may be a disease that could injure or even kill. I also remember how my 2 year old brother suffered A MONTH with this because he had it in his throat. And my mom suffered because she had to deal with a "terrible two" year old boy with chicken pox in his throat (and everywhere else).
|
|
|
Post by fabucat on Aug 24, 2010 8:44:44 GMT -5
Look at it from the Duggars point of view: they dodged a bullet, a few days different in the timing and baby Josie would have been home with all those kids coming down with Chicken pox. She could very well have died. But God has once again shown that they are special and nothing bad will ever happen to them. They probably won't vaccinate for measles and chichen pox because there is a rumor going around in pro-life circles that the vaccines are made from dead baby parts. (yes really) You see these vaccines are made from weakened viruses that must be grown in human cells. The cell lines that are used were isolated in the 1960s from fetal tissue from abortions. So determined are pro-lifers that nothing good should ever come from abortions, they would rather forgo vaccines and the lives saved and misery avoided, than benefit from an abortion that happened nearly 50 years ago. I don't know the truth of that story, considering that abortion was illegal in the vast majority of the USA in the 1960s. I recall that the first states that legalized abortion were NY and Hawaii, and that I believe was in 1968. The Roe v. Wade decision came out in the early 70s. Putting your kids' lives and health at risk because of a rumor is really pro-life (sarcasm).
|
|
|
Post by cherylannhannah on Aug 24, 2010 8:44:54 GMT -5
Is this really the place to be starting a vaccine war? How about while we are at it we duke it out over family bed vs. babies sleeping by themselves? Or I know! I'm a better mother than you are because I breast fed all my babies while you chose to enrich the coffers of Nestle and all those other evil empires by bottle feeding your infant!
Enough already. People make the best decisions they do with the information they have. You may or may not agree with that decision or with their sources of information, but the total disrespect that is being shown in this thread for anyone who doesn't agree with your particular stance is not what I expected to see.
|
|
|
Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Aug 24, 2010 9:28:54 GMT -5
Is this really the place to be starting a vaccine war? How about while we are at it we duke it out over family bed vs. babies sleeping by themselves? Or I know! I'm a better mother than you are because I breast fed all my babies while you chose to enrich the coffers of Nestle and all those other evil empires by bottle feeding your infant! Enough already. People make the best decisions they do with the information they have. You may or may not agree with that decision or with their sources of information, but the total disrespect that is being shown in this thread for anyone who doesn't agree with your particular stance is not what I expected to see. Well said, Cheryl ~ thanks.
|
|
|
Post by synesthesia on Aug 24, 2010 9:44:18 GMT -5
Good point, but as a person who might have asperger's I kind of want solid science to win out when it comes to this issue and so far science is showing there's no link and it gets in the way of understanding autism. To get back on topic though, man, 12 kids with chicken pox. I kind of had fun when I had chicken pox. My cousin infected me and her brother around Xmas. I got to sprawl on the couch and watch Saturday morning cartoons, which is a big deal when you're SDA. Which I'm not anymore.
|
|
|
Post by madame on Aug 24, 2010 9:44:49 GMT -5
I agree with Cherylannhannah.
I feel sorry for the Duggar children, both for the sick ones and the older ones who are looking after the sick ones because mommy is not there for them.
Now, it could happen to any of us that our children ( 2,3 or however many!) come down with chickenpox at a bad time. How about catching chickenpox when mom is pregnant?
I find some of the talk on here rather harsh, AND dictatorial. How would you like it if the Government decided you must vaccinate? And you must send your children to school? and you must stop at x number of children? and you must take your children to the doctor x number of times per year?
Freedom means that people will do things we don't agree with. I stand for what I have said before. The only problem I have with the Duggars is that they are exposing their children to the monster that is TV. Pa and Ma Duggar should have the same right the rest of us have to decide how many children they will have and how they are going to educate them.
Sadly, freedom also means that some people are going to abuse their children in ways that aren't obvious now. That's why I think NLQ is a great site, because it brings to light the abuse, how children of QF families have felt, how grown children feel now, and how it has affected moms. We don't have to turn this into a mommy-war-zone.
|
|
|
Post by rosa on Aug 24, 2010 11:18:08 GMT -5
I respect Cheryl (and Vyckie's) feeling that this isn't the place for a vaccine discussion. BUT
There is a huge difference from the legal freedom to do what you want, and the freedom to do it and not be criticized for it.
I mean, really. If the Duggars are free to be on TV telling everyone their life is wonderful and worry-free and blah blah blah God Loves Us!, we are free to criticize. If people are free to make unsupported claims about vaccines and autism, others are free to subject those claims to scientific study, and then to repeat the results of those studies whenver the claim comes up. It's not censorship to be disagreed with.
|
|
|
Post by km on Aug 24, 2010 16:46:19 GMT -5
Is this really the place to be starting a vaccine war? How about while we are at it we duke it out over family bed vs. babies sleeping by themselves? Or I know! I'm a better mother than you are because I breast fed all my babies while you chose to enrich the coffers of Nestle and all those other evil empires by bottle feeding your infant! Enough already. People make the best decisions they do with the information they have. You may or may not agree with that decision or with their sources of information, but the total disrespect that is being shown in this thread for anyone who doesn't agree with your particular stance is not what I expected to see. Thank you. It's not like I'm unbiased here either... Chronically ill 'n' all, with kind of a shit immune system. It's dangerous for me to come into contact with unvaccinated children... But I've begun to think that vaccination should be on that list of Things We Try Not to Argue About Here. Entrenched positions, etc. And there are quite a few people who don't vaccinate here, in any case, and I feel like some of the rhetoric is a little overblown. I don't feel like it furthers my position any to insult the people around here who don't vaccinate.
|
|
|
Post by fabucat on Aug 24, 2010 22:06:25 GMT -5
I agree with Cherylannhannah. I feel sorry for the Duggar children, both for the sick ones and the older ones who are looking after the sick ones because mommy is not there for them. Now, it could happen to any of us that our children ( 2,3 or however many!) come down with chickenpox at a bad time. How about catching chickenpox when mom is pregnant? I find some of the talk on here rather harsh, AND dictatorial. How would you like it if the Government decided you must vaccinate? And you must send your children to school? and you must stop at x number of children? and you must take your children to the doctor x number of times per year? Freedom means that people will do things we don't agree with. I stand for what I have said before. The only problem I have with the Duggars is that they are exposing their children to the monster that is TV. Pa and Ma Duggar should have the same right the rest of us have to decide how many children they will have and how they are going to educate them. Sadly, freedom also means that some people are going to abuse their children in ways that aren't obvious now. That's why I think NLQ is a great site, because it brings to light the abuse, how children of QF families have felt, how grown children feel now, and how it has affected moms. We don't have to turn this into a mommy-war-zone. It's a tough question as to what the law should mandate. That being said, I don't think that a parent has the right to do everything she wants to to her child. I'm DEFINITELY not belittling the woman who felt that she might have developed Asperger's Syndrome from a vaccine. I'm very sympathetic, actually, because I've had allergic reactions to vaccines (though none were life-threatening). I'm neither a total libertarian nor a total authoritarian on the issue of parental control. Nonetheless, I think that parents should seek treatment when a child gets sick (that's very controversial in some quarters) .
|
|
|
Post by fabucat on Aug 24, 2010 22:11:49 GMT -5
Is this really the place to be starting a vaccine war? How about while we are at it we duke it out over family bed vs. babies sleeping by themselves? Or I know! I'm a better mother than you are because I breast fed all my babies while you chose to enrich the coffers of Nestle and all those other evil empires by bottle feeding your infant! Enough already. People make the best decisions they do with the information they have. You may or may not agree with that decision or with their sources of information, but the total disrespect that is being shown in this thread for anyone who doesn't agree with your particular stance is not what I expected to see. Thank you. It's not like I'm unbiased here either... Chronically ill 'n' all, with kind of a shit immune system. It's dangerous for me to come into contact with unvaccinated children... But I've begun to think that vaccination should be on that list of Things We Try Not to Argue About Here. Entrenched positions, etc. And there are quite a few people who don't vaccinate here, in any case, and I feel like some of the rhetoric is a little overblown. I don't feel like it furthers my position any to insult the people around here who don't vaccinate. Maybe people who don't vaccinate their kids should just keep 'em in quarantine when they start to show signs of illness. I had no idea that vaccination of children was such a controversial subject. Now I'm talking about the basics like small pox and polio. The chicken pox vaccine, as I've said before, should be elective.
|
|
|
Post by fabucat on Aug 24, 2010 22:19:16 GMT -5
I respect Cheryl (and Vyckie's) feeling that this isn't the place for a vaccine discussion. BUT There is a huge difference from the legal freedom to do what you want, and the freedom to do it and not be criticized for it. I mean, really. If the Duggars are free to be on TV telling everyone their life is wonderful and worry-free and blah blah blah God Loves Us!, we are free to criticize. If people are free to make unsupported claims about vaccines and autism, others are free to subject those claims to scientific study, and then to repeat the results of those studies whenver the claim comes up. It's not censorship to be disagreed with. AMEN. I actually have some experience with something similar because an aunt of mine was a Christian Scientist. My immediate family thought that my aunt and her fellow church members were crazy. There was all kinds of stories about how some members had lost children because they didn't seek medical treatment. (I realize that this is a bit different from the vaccination argument). Then again, when I fell down the stairs as a kid and sustained a concussion, my aunt stayed with me for several hours and prayed for me. Wouldn't you know that by the next day, I felt fine and all of my bruises had disappeared? Personally I think that God endowed mankind with special skills, medical science among them. And prayer certainly helps as well. Why not use both?
|
|
|
Post by fabucat on Aug 24, 2010 22:23:35 GMT -5
Let me add that you can feel free to pick apart anything that I say because I'm a lousy mom. I've got four kids: Brady, Casey, Chrissy and Lola--three cats and 1 dog.
I certainly have no experience of having been a mother to humans, and therefore the mothers here know a lot better than I do.
|
|