|
Post by madame on Aug 25, 2010 5:54:26 GMT -5
Ok, I guess I can share a different perspective on here. I live in Germany. A country where medical insurance is compulsory. Where parents get invitations to take their children for their checkups with a warning at the end of the letter that if they don't take their children by a given date, CPS will be informed. A country where school is compulsory from age 6, and police will come to your door if your child misses x days of school. Where you must provide evidence of having seen a doctor if your child is away from school more than x number of days.
Do you know how these legislations make me feel? Like the government doesn't trust my judgment with my children. Like the government thinks they own my children!
Children get put into foster care and parents don't ever get them back. It happens. Parents are complying out of fear. They aren't doing what they think is best for their children, they are doing what they are told to do, out of fear. People hide their frustrations and their parenting inadequacies in fear that if anyone finds out they sometimes fly off the handle they might inform CPS, who might see fit to take their kids away, or at least to keep an eye on them.
And you know what? Abuse still happens. You hear it in the news. Children are neglected or abused to death daily.
I don't think we need a nanny state. What we need is for adults only to have children, for these adults to be trusted that they will assume their responsibilities towards their children, and for them to be responsible.
I got a letter a week or so ago informing me that my 5 year old is to take part in extra classes after his normal morning in Kindergarten twice a week. They don't offer the classes, they inform you that he is to attend, and they request that you bring him at 12 o'clock on those two days if he isn't attending Kindergarten (like preschool) What does that say? I would protest, in fact, my eldest was being very disruptive so I pulled him out. I think many parents just accept it out of fear, or because they have learnt to abide by the law and not question it.
Sounds very much like what we are decrying here, just instead of having some fundie preachers telling us that we will go to hell if we don't do things their way, we have the government looming over us with agents who may take our children if we don't comply.
|
|
|
Post by chbernat on Aug 25, 2010 6:57:35 GMT -5
Wow. After watching the episode last night I am not sure what to think!
I understand the beliefs on the chicken pox vaccination. I understand where this couple is coming from. I was after all, a poster child for this movement for over 20 years.
OK. So this is NOT about whether or not to vaccinate.
For me its about the LACK OF APPARENT WISDOM.
It seems as though God keeps putting things in their lives to get them to question their ideology..."Is this REALLY working for you?" But it seems like they just want to dig their heels in harder!
I honestly felt a lot of pity for the older kids on the show last night. If you had a 12-14 year old who had never had the chicken pox, and had innumerable younger siblings, don't you think, that out of love and concern for that child (knowing that chicken pox only gets worse with age), that you would WANT your kids vaccinated so that at least the cases would have been lighter?
Is it really wise to not vaccinate when you have a tiny health compromised baby that is coming home? And yes, she was protected, miraculously. But all preemies and SIBLINGS under the age of 5 or so automatically qualify for the RSV vaccine. Have they denied this one too?
It just seems to be such an apparent lack of love and concern for the children that they HAVE. JoyAnna has them on her eye?! If she was vaccinated, she probably would have had a lighter case. Having them on your eye can cause BLINDNESS. The older you are, the more serious the case. I frankly just don't understand the wisdom!
I just feel sorry for the kids. Yeah, let's sign up to have a camera crew in our home, filming us while we are miserable and sick and puking, Mom and Dad. That sounds like fun!
All for the sake of "witnessing to the world" and promoting an ideology that clearly (at least in my own eyes) is not working for them. I truly pity them. I believe that they will end up losing some of their kids because of this. I feel like I tune in to watch a trainwreck every week and it makes me feel so sorry for the kids. Especially Jennifer and Johanna who barely know Mommy b/c she has been so busy taking care of Josie.
I actually wish TLC would pull the show. Its just not fair to the kids.
|
|
|
Post by synesthesia on Aug 25, 2010 9:11:06 GMT -5
Haven't seen this show in a while, but i find myself puzzled by the Duggar's culture. It really doesn't seem healthy to not only have that many kids with chicken pox near a very, very vulnerable special needs child, but to film it... Hmm. Maybe these folks should not do shows very often. I'm not sure if it's healthy...
|
|
|
Post by tapati on Aug 25, 2010 13:16:44 GMT -5
They dodged a bullet with Josie this time because she hadn't come home yet and so it was easy to just delay her reunion with the family. But apparently she's going to have a compromised immunity for some time to come, and given that the parents themselves know how illness sweeps through all of their children whenever one gets sick, I don't know how they plan to keep her isolated. She can be exposed during an incubation period for an illness--before anyone even knows that she should be isolated!
This is one child that mom can't hand off to anyone else, really.
Re: chicken pox, I had a very bad case. The people who bug me most are not the ones who merely avoid the vaccine, but rather the people who have chicken pox parties so their kids can be immunized by having chicken pox (so they don't get it as an adult). If people are going to do that, I hope they isolate their children while they may be incubating it (and still contagious). They shouldn't expose other people who might get very, very sick, such as immuno-compromised children and adults, and pregnant women.
|
|
|
Post by tapati on Aug 25, 2010 13:17:44 GMT -5
Madame, WOW. I can understand why they want to make those laws but that's going too far. Scary!
|
|
|
Post by synesthesia on Aug 25, 2010 15:09:24 GMT -5
Oooo. You have a RUMI QUOTE.
Sorry, off topic. They kind of need a bit of middle ground in terms of parental rights, but then the parental rights thing sometimes bugs me due to a certain issue that is bound to create arguments.
|
|
|
Post by km on Aug 25, 2010 16:33:55 GMT -5
I respect Cheryl (and Vyckie's) feeling that this isn't the place for a vaccine discussion. BUT There is a huge difference from the legal freedom to do what you want, and the freedom to do it and not be criticized for it. I mean, really. If the Duggars are free to be on TV telling everyone their life is wonderful and worry-free and blah blah blah God Loves Us!, we are free to criticize. If people are free to make unsupported claims about vaccines and autism, others are free to subject those claims to scientific study, and then to repeat the results of those studies whenver the claim comes up. It's not censorship to be disagreed with. AMEN. I actually have some experience with something similar because an aunt of mine was a Christian Scientist. My immediate family thought that my aunt and her fellow church members were crazy. There was all kinds of stories about how some members had lost children because they didn't seek medical treatment. (I realize that this is a bit different from the vaccination argument). Then again, when I fell down the stairs as a kid and sustained a concussion, my aunt stayed with me for several hours and prayed for me. Wouldn't you know that by the next day, I felt fine and all of my bruises had disappeared? Personally I think that God endowed mankind with special skills, medical science among them. And prayer certainly helps as well. Why not use both? Yeah, I had a Christian Scientist friend in grad school. I have...mixed feelings about the religion because (1) well, personally, I don't care much for Positive Thinking religion but (2) they aren't allowed to proselytize, which makes them...quite different from a lot of religious sects. Weird anecdote: She had imperfect vision and wore contact lenses for this. Another friend (an elementary school teacher) had told me stories about her Christian Scientist students who had to sit at the front of the class because their parents couldn't get them glasses... Anyway, I asked my friend about this, and she said that she wore contacts because she hadn't had time to "work on" improving her eyesight. I thought that was interesting, being more accustomed to shame-based extremism... I thought, "Seems like they'd want her to wear glasses so as to be more open about her 'sin'--and become humbled by it" or something like that. I mean, I get it when it comes to not glasses (in non-extreme cases) and some vaccines... I think these should remain elective. And I'm not sure how I feel about, eh, forcible vaccinations even though I'm pro-vaccination. I guess I lean slightly libertarian in most issues in which adult agents have room for disagreement. What scares me with some Christian Scientists, though, is the long record of child deaths that are associated with parents who refuse life-saving treatment for their minor children. I kind of...don't think adults should get to decide life or death for minor kids.
|
|
|
Post by rosa on Aug 25, 2010 17:23:09 GMT -5
Tapati, at least in my neighborhood the crunchy homeschooling moms take their kids to a chicken pox party and then the public park's playgroup for under-5s. Where they chat about the chicken pox party they all just went to, and feel oppressed if you tell them you wish they wouldn't take the kids out and about if they think they're contagious.
|
|
|
Post by tapati on Aug 25, 2010 19:45:02 GMT -5
Tapati, at least in my neighborhood the crunchy homeschooling moms take their kids to a chicken pox party and then the public park's playgroup for under-5s. Where they chat about the chicken pox party they all just went to, and feel oppressed if you tell them you wish they wouldn't take the kids out and about if they think they're contagious. UGH. Oppressed? LMAO.
|
|
|
Post by fabucat on Aug 25, 2010 20:54:28 GMT -5
Ok, I guess I can share a different perspective on here. I live in Germany. A country where medical insurance is compulsory. Where parents get invitations to take their children for their checkups with a warning at the end of the letter that if they don't take their children by a given date, CPS will be informed. A country where school is compulsory from age 6, and police will come to your door if your child misses x days of school. Where you must provide evidence of having seen a doctor if your child is away from school more than x number of days. Do you know how these legislations make me feel? Like the government doesn't trust my judgment with my children. Like the government thinks they own my children! Children get put into foster care and parents don't ever get them back. It happens. Parents are complying out of fear. They aren't doing what they think is best for their children, they are doing what they are told to do, out of fear. People hide their frustrations and their parenting inadequacies in fear that if anyone finds out they sometimes fly off the handle they might inform CPS, who might see fit to take their kids away, or at least to keep an eye on them. And you know what? Abuse still happens. You hear it in the news. Children are neglected or abused to death daily. I don't think we need a nanny state. What we need is for adults only to have children, for these adults to be trusted that they will assume their responsibilities towards their children, and for them to be responsible. I got a letter a week or so ago informing me that my 5 year old is to take part in extra classes after his normal morning in Kindergarten twice a week. They don't offer the classes, they inform you that he is to attend, and they request that you bring him at 12 o'clock on those two days if he isn't attending Kindergarten (like preschool) What does that say? I would protest, in fact, my eldest was being very disruptive so I pulled him out. I think many parents just accept it out of fear, or because they have learnt to abide by the law and not question it. Sounds very much like what we are decrying here, just instead of having some fundie preachers telling us that we will go to hell if we don't do things their way, we have the government looming over us with agents who may take our children if we don't comply. You're welcome to immigrate to the US, where your kids are free to pass over to the next world if they get sick and you don't have insurance. Tens of thousands of people are dying in the US each year because they can't afford health insurance and they get inadequate health insurance. My ex-boyfriend, who has dual US-German citizenship, moved over there so he could get the excellent healthcare. His only complaint is that the Germans make fun of his American-tinged German! Perhaps the German government goes overboard, but I'm glad that education is compulsory over there. The Germany economy reflects a better educated populace. As far as compulsory vaccination being indicative of a nanny state, it could be worse. Back when my mom was a kid, she said that the government quarantined people who exhibited symtoms of polio. Polio was a terrible disease back then and it killed or maimed thousands of kids and young adults each year. The US government was serious about minimizing epidemics because President Roosevelt had been permanently crippled by polio. My mom said that little kids in the 30s and 40s were terrified of getting polio, not so much because of the illness, but because quarantines lasted for about 3 weeks, and parents weren't even allowed in the same room as their children. Thankfully we've beaten diseases like polio and smallpox. But the Western world is overdue for a massive flu epidemic, like the Spanish flu epidemic in 1918 which killed 3 million Americans. I'm not passing judgment on people who refuse to get the flu vaccine every year, but for me it's a priority.
|
|
|
Post by nikita on Aug 25, 2010 21:01:13 GMT -5
In our cult the only valid reasons for missing any part of church and it's activities (which amounted to seven nights a week and twice on Saturday and twice on Sunday) was if you were working or you were dead. Illness was not accepted as an excuse. I mean, they took roll call to make sure you showed up and if you didn't you'd get a visit that night.
Anyway, you were supposed to cart around whatever kids you had with you everywhere 'like the old time saintly women did' even if they were sick. And we had one doctor among us (a gazillion nurses because that and teaching were the only acceptable female professions) but just one doctor and he toed that line pretty hard. I was helped (almost carried) into Sunday night church when I was twenty-one with what turned out to be scarlet fever. My temperature was 105 and I was too weak to walk but I wasn't permitted to stay home. I got it from exposure to the thirteen children who had lighter cases of it and were running around the church instead of being kept home. I got the mumps at nineteen the same way (but I stayed home with that one). And I got the measles at seventeen the same way. I also stayed home with that because I was so sick and my mom insisted. Thank God. I used to get high fevers all the time (probably related to my period although I didn't make the connection at the time) and sadly I learned that I could handle my responsibilities okay, not happily but okay, when my fever was 102; was pleasantly loopy at 104 and 105; but 103 is a total bitch to suffer. I'd pray for lower or higher but 103 degrees is high enough to hurt but too low to be loopily numbed. Church at 103 degrees was torture.
Anyway, when chicken pox hit us one of my friends got it from the kids, who were once again ordered in attendance with their parents by our cult doctor, and she almost died from it. It was inside of her, in her throat, her vagina, the lining of her abdomen, everywhere. The doctor and the mothers were unrepentant. The party line was that 'all kids need to get it so why not expose them to it and get it over with?' but the fact that adults were sickened even to the point of death didn't factor into it. As a side note there wasn't a chicken pox vaccine back then. It was during the chicken pox near death of my friend and the doctor's complete lack of compassion or concern for her that I lost respect for him as a doctor. I never trusted his opinion on anything medical again.
Where I live now there are a very high number of parents who choose not to vaccinate their kids and have doctors who support them in it. It's kind of a hippie/artsy country place anyway so I guess that is to be expected. I vaccinated mine. It's a hard issue and although I am on the vaccine side of the argument I don't want the government ordering too many of them on us. Let us make up our own minds and use the power of information and persuasion and those nifty public service announcements to get the point across. Don't start rounding folks up like apparently they do in Germany. I adore Germany but it doesn't surprise me that they take efficiency to extreme levels like this.
The whooping cough commercials really annoy me here. I don't know if they are national or just in the West, but they have the sound of a baby whooping on it and it makes my throat close up. I have asthma and for the entire commercial I find it hard to breathe properly. I need to get vaccinated for that one, if the commercial makes me short of breath I will probably die if I actually catch the thing.
As for the Duggars, they are idiots. I love large families and I wish them well but that particular family infuriates me. Everything I've seen or heard them do with baby Josie makes me want to scream. And folks keep saying that Josie will require Michelle's attention but I don't doubt for a minute that she'll hand that tiny baby off to one of the older girls the minute she thinks she can. Michelle doesn't mother children, she bears children. And as they said, she is looking forward to 'accepting' number twenty. Nothing is stopping Michelle, certainly not a micro-preemie who needs her.
|
|
|
Post by fabucat on Aug 25, 2010 21:04:06 GMT -5
Wow. After watching the episode last night I am not sure what to think! I understand the beliefs on the chicken pox vaccination. I understand where this couple is coming from. I was after all, a poster child for this movement for over 20 years. OK. So this is NOT about whether or not to vaccinate. For me its about the LACK OF APPARENT WISDOM. It seems as though God keeps putting things in their lives to get them to question their ideology..."Is this REALLY working for you?" But it seems like they just want to dig their heels in harder! I honestly felt a lot of pity for the older kids on the show last night. If you had a 12-14 year old who had never had the chicken pox, and had innumerable younger siblings, don't you think, that out of love and concern for that child (knowing that chicken pox only gets worse with age), that you would WANT your kids vaccinated so that at least the cases would have been lighter? Is it really wise to not vaccinate when you have a tiny health compromised baby that is coming home? And yes, she was protected, miraculously. But all preemies and SIBLINGS under the age of 5 or so automatically qualify for the RSV vaccine. Have they denied this one too? It just seems to be such an apparent lack of love and concern for the children that they HAVE. JoyAnna has them on her eye?! If she was vaccinated, she probably would have had a lighter case. Having them on your eye can cause BLINDNESS. The older you are, the more serious the case. I frankly just don't understand the wisdom! I just feel sorry for the kids. Yeah, let's sign up to have a camera crew in our home, filming us while we are miserable and sick and puking, Mom and Dad. That sounds like fun! All for the sake of "witnessing to the world" and promoting an ideology that clearly (at least in my own eyes) is not working for them. I truly pity them. I believe that they will end up losing some of their kids because of this. I feel like I tune in to watch a trainwreck every week and it makes me feel so sorry for the kids. Especially Jennifer and Johanna who barely know Mommy b/c she has been so busy taking care of Josie. I actually wish TLC would pull the show. Its just not fair to the kids. That's why I think that if the Duggars were serious about their values, they wouldn't put their family on TV. The family obviously doesn't think much of TV, since don't allow the children to watch it. So why is it OK for them to have a TV show? (Even if it's family-friendly and not filled with naughty stuff like other shows). One thing I've learned from the NLQ blogs is that none of the families described therein were shilled on TV.
|
|
|
Post by fabucat on Aug 25, 2010 21:11:48 GMT -5
Re: chicken pox, I had a very bad case. The people who bug me most are not the ones who merely avoid the vaccine, but rather the people who have chicken pox parties so their kids can be immunized by having chicken pox (so they don't get it as an adult). If people are going to do that, I hope they isolate their children while they may be incubating it (and still contagious). They shouldn't expose other people who might get very, very sick, such as immuno-compromised children and adults, and pregnant women. CHICKEN POX PARTIES?!!!! Every time I think that I've read something in this forum that's the living end and nothing else will shock me, I'm wrong. And what you're describing isn't a QF practice necessarily, but something that more mainstream. Because there's nothing more fun than having a whole slew of kids in the neighborhood sick with chicken pox at the same time. Whew!
|
|
|
Post by fabucat on Aug 25, 2010 21:16:32 GMT -5
Personally I think that God endowed mankind with special skills, medical science among them. And prayer certainly helps as well. Why not use both? Yeah, I had a Christian Scientist friend in grad school. I have...mixed feelings about the religion because (1) well, personally, I don't care much for Positive Thinking religion but (2) they aren't allowed to proselytize, which makes them...quite different from a lot of religious sects. I didn't know that about the not-proselytizing part, because my aunt made it abundantly clear what her beliefs were and they had an effect on me. But no, she never tried to "save" me. I mean, I get it when it comes to not glasses (in non-extreme cases) and some vaccines... I think these should remain elective. And I'm not sure how I feel about, eh, forcible vaccinations even though I'm pro-vaccination. I guess I lean slightly libertarian in most issues in which adult agents have room for disagreement. What scares me with some Christian Scientists, though, is the long record of child deaths that are associated with parents who refuse life-saving treatment for their minor children. I kind of...don't think adults should get to decide life or death for minor kids.
|
|
|
Post by fabucat on Aug 25, 2010 21:25:10 GMT -5
Once again, wow. I know that once you get a fever of at least 103, there exists the possibility of brain damage. I've heard that a child with a fever of 105 should be put immediately in a bathtub of rather cold water (or at least that is what was done to me). Making someone work with a raging fever like that is insanity. At least in the Christian Scientist faith, I'm pretty sure you're allowed to stay in bed if you're sick. In fact I'm positive. In our cult the only valid reasons for missing any part of church and it's activities (which amounted to seven nights a week and twice on Saturday and twice on Sunday) was if you were working or you were dead. Illness was not accepted as an excuse. I mean, they took roll call to make sure you showed up and if you didn't you'd get a visit that night. Anyway, you were supposed to cart around whatever kids you had with you everywhere 'like the old time saintly women did' even if they were sick. And we had one doctor among us (a gazillion nurses because that and teaching were the only acceptable female professions) but just one doctor and he toed that line pretty hard. I was helped (almost carried) into Sunday night church when I was twenty-one with what turned out to be scarlet fever. My temperature was 105 and I was too weak to walk but I wasn't permitted to stay home. I got it from exposure to the thirteen children who had lighter cases of it and were running around the church instead of being kept home. I got the mumps at nineteen the same way (but I stayed home with that one). And I got the measles at seventeen the same way. I also stayed home with that because I was so sick and my mom insisted. Thank God. I used to get high fevers all the time (probably related to my period although I didn't make the connection at the time) and sadly I learned that I could handle my responsibilities okay, not happily but okay, when my fever was 102; was pleasantly loopy at 104 and 105; but 103 is a total bitch to suffer. I'd pray for lower or higher but 103 degrees is high enough to hurt but too low to be loopily numbed. Church at 103 degrees was torture. Anyway, when chicken pox hit us one of my friends got it from the kids, who were once again ordered in attendance with their parents by our cult doctor, and she almost died from it. It was inside of her, in her throat, her vagina, the lining of her abdomen, everywhere. The doctor and the mothers were unrepentant. The party line was that 'all kids need to get it so why not expose them to it and get it over with?' but the fact that adults were sickened even to the point of death didn't factor into it. As a side note there wasn't a chicken pox vaccine back then. It was during the chicken pox near death of my friend and the doctor's complete lack of compassion or concern for her that I lost respect for him as a doctor. I never trusted his opinion on anything medical again. Where I live now there are a very high number of parents who choose not to vaccinate their kids and have doctors who support them in it. It's kind of a hippie/artsy country place anyway so I guess that is to be expected. I vaccinated mine. It's a hard issue and although I am on the vaccine side of the argument I don't want the government ordering too many of them on us. Let us make up our own minds and use the power of information and persuasion and those nifty public service announcements to get the point across. Don't start rounding folks up like apparently they do in Germany. I adore Germany but it doesn't surprise me that they take efficiency to extreme levels like this. The whooping cough commercials really annoy me here. I don't know if they are national or just in the West, but they have the sound of a baby whooping on it and it makes my throat close up. I have asthma and for the entire commercial I find it hard to breathe properly. I need to get vaccinated for that one, if the commercial makes me short of breath I will probably die if I actually catch the thing. As for the Duggars, they are idiots. I love large families and I wish them well but that particular family infuriates me. Everything I've seen or heard them do with baby Josie makes me want to scream. And folks keep saying that Josie will require Michelle's attention but I don't doubt for a minute that she'll hand that tiny baby off to one of the older girls the minute she thinks she can. Michelle doesn't mother children, she bears children. And as they said, she is looking forward to 'accepting' number twenty. Nothing is stopping Michelle, certainly not a micro-preemie who needs her.
|
|
|
Post by coleslaw on Aug 25, 2010 22:13:06 GMT -5
Re: chicken pox, I had a very bad case. The people who bug me most are not the ones who merely avoid the vaccine, but rather the people who have chicken pox parties so their kids can be immunized by having chicken pox (so they don't get it as an adult). If people are going to do that, I hope they isolate their children while they may be incubating it (and still contagious). They shouldn't expose other people who might get very, very sick, such as immuno-compromised children and adults, and pregnant women. CHICKEN POX PARTIES?!!!! Every time I think that I've read something in this forum that's the living end and nothing else will shock me, I'm wrong. And what you're describing isn't a QF practice necessarily, but something that more mainstream. Because there's nothing more fun than having a whole slew of kids in the neighborhood sick with chicken pox at the same time. Whew! Well, we didn't have parties, but when I was a child there was no vaccine for German measles and it was common to take girls to visit friends who were sick with it so that they would get it and not have to worry when they were married and got pregnant.
|
|
Angie the AntiTheist
Guest
|
Post by Angie the AntiTheist on Aug 25, 2010 22:26:50 GMT -5
To share a bit of perspective....
I was raised in a Christian conservative home (to put it mildly) where going to the doctor for any reason was having insufficient faith in God, the ultimate sin. I was never vaccinated as a child - for anything. I was homeschooled at first, but went to public school for years, putting other children at risk for a set of beliefs I wasn't sure I adhered to anymore.
As a young, very liberal, very crunchy and very ignorant mother, I took to the autism-vaccination conspiracy theory like an ant at a picnic. I was ready to fear doctors and medicine! I'd spent my life being primed for that decision. And I thought I was doing what WAS best - and safest - for my son, as my family thought keeping me away from the "arm of the flesh" (doctors) and focused on prayer & faith healing instead WAS best and safest for me. (They were extremely wrong. Medical neglect is no fun & there are some rights I don't think parents should have but that's not for this board.)
Parents who do not immunize their children are almost certainly ignorant of the facts, and (at least in my experience) fearful. Working to soothe those fears and arm them with the facts may be more effective at getting them to come around (as I have - my son had his boosters last month) than questioning their level of commitment as parents.
|
|
|
Post by nikita on Aug 26, 2010 0:29:34 GMT -5
As a young, very liberal, very crunchy and very ignorant mother, I took to the autism-vaccination conspiracy theory like an ant at a picnic. I was ready to fear doctors and medicine! I'd spent my life being primed for that decision. And I thought I was doing what WAS best - and safest - for my son, as my family thought keeping me away from the "arm of the flesh" (doctors) and focused on prayer & faith healing instead WAS best and safest for me. (They were extremely wrong. Medical neglect is no fun & there are some rights I don't think parents should have but that's not for this board.) Parents who do not immunize their children are almost certainly ignorant of the facts, and (at least in my experience) fearful. Working to soothe those fears and arm them with the facts may be more effective at getting them to come around (as I have - my son had his boosters last month) than questioning their level of commitment as parents. I don't doubt for a single minute that parents who choose not to vaccinate their children care for them deeply and make the decision with a lot of thought and care. Personally I think they are making a mistake, but I don't doubt their motives a bit. I don't doubt that they are good parents or that they want the very best for their children. And for the most part things work out. When it doesn't work out it is very tragic, but that is true of all choices in life. Again, I am definitely on the side of vaccinating where that choice needs to be made. When I was growing up chicken pox was a mild disease, almost always of kids, and we all (mostly all) got it young without much fuss. There was no vaccine. I personally don't think there is any reason to get vaccinated for a disease as generally mild as chicken pox even though rarely it becomes more severe. The risk-benefit ratio of a vaccine doesn't move in the must-vaccinate direction to me. I do think it is stupid to not separate your kids from others if they get it. When I was a kid we weren't sent to school with it or have 'parties' to purposely get it. But it wasn't a huge scare for anyone either. German measles is entirely different because although it's mild usually it is catastrophic for early pregnancy. When that vaccine became available that was something with a definite benefit that outweighed risk for most people. I think every parent (and in some cases health department) has to make that risk-benefit decision for each disease. And people are going to make different decisions on that scale. If it was simply a decision that affected that family alone it would end there, but unfortunately we don't live in a vacuum. We are interconnected. What we do may work out fine for us but be a tragedy for the people next door. Right now whooping cough is killing babies and older people in California and Oregon. That's a problem I didn't see coming. I've never heard of anyone getting whooping cough. Everyone was vaccinated for it as infants. Except, now they aren't all getting vaccinated. And they are spreading it to adults whose vaccines have worn off as they grew older. Who knew this was going to happen? Now I have to get vaccinated for a disease no one ever gets because it's back because enough people stopped getting their kids vaccinated for it... You can see the problem. It becomes a public health issue instead of a personal parenting issue. Suddenly here we all are being urged to get vaccinated again for something no one ever got because we were all vaccinated for it as babies. And suddenly doctors are being presented with babies who are dying of this disease that they never expected they'd see. It's kind of frightening. This is a controversy that is not going to be resolved here that is for certain. When I said the Duggars were idiots, and why I think it shows one more time that they simply don't think enough about their children's total welfare, is that they now have a micro-preemie coming home and that is a special situation and a special environment and I really don't think they are going to pull off the level of care and concern needed for that situation. And that includes weighing the risks and benefits of vaccination when balanced out with a child as delicate and at risk as the new baby is now. They missed the chicken pox with her by a miracle. Sadly, I am sure that is exactly what they are saying to themselves: it's a miracle, and further proof that God is watching out for them. That would be a matter of opinion, but no matter. It's just one more thing that adds up to the whole of why I think they are idiots and I am hugely frustrated with them.
|
|
|
Post by synesthesia on Aug 26, 2010 8:56:42 GMT -5
I can't really understand their culture or their mentality. It's a bit alien to me...
|
|
|
Post by km on Aug 26, 2010 16:29:53 GMT -5
Right now whooping cough is killing babies and older people in California and Oregon. That's a problem I didn't see coming. I've never heard of anyone getting whooping cough. Everyone was vaccinated for it as infants. Except, now they aren't all getting vaccinated. And they are spreading it to adults whose vaccines have worn off as they grew older. Who knew this was going to happen? Now I have to get vaccinated for a disease no one ever gets because it's back because enough people stopped getting their kids vaccinated for it... You can see the problem. It becomes a public health issue instead of a personal parenting issue. Suddenly here we all are being urged to get vaccinated again for something no one ever got because we were all vaccinated for it as babies. And suddenly doctors are being presented with babies who are dying of this disease that they never expected they'd see. It's kind of frightening. Okay, this is the kind of thing that makes me irate about this issue. People bringing back diseases that have been eradicated in the United States... I had to get a polio vaccination as an adult for the same reason. I didn't get it as a kid because it had been eradicated when I was born in the early '80's... With chicken pox, I don't feel nearly as strident about the whole thing. Chicken pox parties sound kind of idiotic, but when I was a kid... Not all that long ago, we didn't have a vaccination either. Most people I knew got it as children, and yeah, it's generally fairly mild in children. I think the vaccination may be more useful for adults who didn't get it when they were children. Since it's more dangerous in adults and everything. Speaking of that, nikita, your friend had this in her vagina That just makes me...itch, thinking about it. Ugh... How awful. I have a connective tissue disease, so I get lots of rashes and hives, but that honestly sounds...horrific.
|
|
|
Post by km on Aug 26, 2010 16:33:48 GMT -5
Angie: I think the thing that bothers me most about the autism conspiracy theory (besides being bad science) is this idea that it's worse to have a child on the autism spectrum than to have your child get paralyzed from polio or die from whooping cough.
|
|
|
Post by tapati on Aug 26, 2010 17:05:39 GMT -5
Yes it is a public health matter. I, myself, got whooping cough in my thirties during a similar California outbreak, along with my daughter, whose immunity had worn off. I fully understand why it kills people. I got to find out why it used to be so feared, in spite of some folks saying it is a mild illness. That wasn't my experience or my daughter's. I didn't know there was an outbreak but she got it at school and brought it home. With whooping cough the mucus is so thick it covers your throat until you can barely draw in breath to cough. There is just a tiny opening (hence the eerie whooping sound) and it takes every ounce of strength to keep breathing in to get enough air to cough and try to clear your airway. You do this over and over again before you can breath freely, only to repeat the process later. All the usual things, expectorant, fluids, etc., don't seem to help. I could imagine how babies and small children die just because they don't have my adult strength to do this over and over and over again. Even some adults pass out from lack of oxygen! We used to not worry about getting adult boosters. Adults aren't huge disease vectors like kids. (We have better hygiene, for one.) Immunizing the kids used to be sufficient to protect all of us. Except now, we aren't immunizing all of the kids. So people who didn't get adult boosters now have to scramble to go get them, especially people with heart disease or other illnesses, like me. Yes I got my booster! Frankly, I don't know if I'd survive it now. I wanted to be sure I wouldn't have to. Once was enough! Chicken pox is normally mild in kids but can be far more serious for adults and especially pregnant women. I had to be quarantined from my mom when I had it because she had never had it and had no immunity. The vaccine for it isn't a hundred per cent effective but normally insures a milder case if one does get it. I had a severe case myself and wouldn't wish that on anyone. As I said, I don't see how Josie will be safe because an immuno-compromised person can get very ill just being exposed to the common cold. Are they going to isolate her completely from her siblings? How? This article is by a mom who has a child with a suppressed immune system like Josie and can't send him to daycare or public school because of exempted-from-vaccination children attending: www.slate.com/id/2232977/?from=rssOther parents' decisions don't only affect their own family, unfortunately. For anyone with a compromised immune system (or who is at risk for bad reactions to a vaccine), their only hope is that others get vaccinated and provide herd immunity. That is breaking down in California and elsewhere. Sending kids forth after a chicken pox party could make someone very, very ill. Imagine little Josie encountering a child like that on her way for a doctor's visit. Off topic: Madame, I just read a very positive article about Germany today and wonder what you think of these policies and practices: www.salon.com/books/feature/2010/08/25/german_usa_working_life_ext2010A silver lining amid the regulations regarding children, surely? Sometimes a nanny state isn't all bad.
|
|
|
Post by km on Aug 26, 2010 17:13:11 GMT -5
Tapati: Ugh... The Slate article kind of makes me sick to my stomach. That's awful. It makes me incredibly relieved that there aren't a lot of anti-vaccination people around where I live.
ETA: Because, while I don't have cancer, I do have a disease that will be life-threatening unless I'm faithful to a lifetime regimen of immunosuppressive medications... Which means I am immunosuppressed by necessity, which means... Argh... Yeah. This vaccination issue certainly hits close to home when it poses personal dangers...
|
|
|
Post by tapati on Aug 26, 2010 17:37:03 GMT -5
Tapati: Ugh... The Slate article kind of makes me sick to my stomach. That's awful. It makes me incredibly relieved that there aren't a lot of anti-vaccination people around where I live. ETA: Because, while I don't have cancer, I do have a disease that will be life-threatening unless I'm faithful to a lifetime regimen of immunosuppressive medications... Which means I am immunosuppressed by necessity, which means... Argh... Yeah. This vaccination issue certainly hits close to home when it poses personal dangers... Yeah, for me too, because heart disease makes me more vulnerable if I do get something. The fact that whooping cough was going around again gave me the chills.
|
|
|
Post by nikita on Aug 26, 2010 17:45:32 GMT -5
Tapati: Ugh... The Slate article kind of makes me sick to my stomach. That's awful. It makes me incredibly relieved that there aren't a lot of anti-vaccination people around where I live. ETA: Because, while I don't have cancer, I do have a disease that will be life-threatening unless I'm faithful to a lifetime regimen of immunosuppressive medications... Which means I am immunosuppressed by necessity, which means... Argh... Yeah. This vaccination issue certainly hits close to home when it poses personal dangers... Yeah, for me too, because heart disease makes me more vulnerable if I do get something. The fact that whooping cough was going around again gave me the chills. I know, I have asthma and the possiblity of getting whooping cough completely freaks me out. I don't know how I'd even survive it. Just the sound of that baby 'whooping' on the commercial makes me feel like I can't breathe, I have to turn it off as soon as it comes on. And I live near Ashland Oregon, a town with an unusually large population of non-vaccinated children. I'm on the list for a booster and it can't come soon enough for me.
|
|