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Post by cherylannhannah on Jul 29, 2010 20:25:29 GMT -5
Not all QF moms of many age more quickly. I'm 49 but often pass for someone in their late 30's. You can FB me by looking up my name.
I get funny reactions from people who know I have a lot of kids, the first time they meet me. They expect me to look like someone who got pulled through the hedge backwards and then chewed over by the cat. Instead I am youngish looking and usually well dressed , with my hair and makeup done cuz I own my own business.
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Post by nikita on Jul 29, 2010 20:50:15 GMT -5
The mother I always think of when I think worn out and defeated is Barbra Stanwyck's mother in the original Stella Dallas. I saw that the first time when I was a young teenager and I remember clearly promising myself that whatever it was that made that woman look so completely worn down, defeated, and old way before her time I was going to do differently. I think poverty does more to age women's appearance than anything else aside from race and genetics. I think a lot of the older 'worn out defeated' look on the Depression era poor women had to do with too much sun exposure and little if any skin care products, few if any conveniences so that everything they did was full on hard labor, and poorer medical care and health in general. And the emotional health is very important, too. Not knowing where your next meal is coming from can age you fast. Today we are generally in much better health and have more labor saving devices and just in general take better care of ourselves. And genetics is really really really important. Today when a woman tells me she has thirteen kids and is only forty or so I don't expect her to look old. I expect her to be exhausted and frazzled, but not necessarily 'old'.
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Post by dangermom on Jul 29, 2010 21:43:15 GMT -5
Yes, that aging seems to have been normal for women living in poverty who did hard physical labor out in the sun a lot. I was showing that photo to my daughter last night and pointing out that she was younger than I am, and that women don't age as much now that our lives are so much easier (and more indoor). Sun is the biggest factor, I think--and remember, Migrant Mother was living in the central valley of California, which is hot, dry, and very sunny.
Bearing a lot of children doesn't age women IME. I know many women with 6 or more kids and they all look pretty much just like everyone else. (I remember meeting a woman at a luncheon a few years ago and being surprised to hear that she was a mom, since she looked about 20. Then it turned out that she was a mom of 6...)
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Post by debrabaker on Jul 30, 2010 5:34:20 GMT -5
I believe stress (often the result of the things mentioned)is the culprit of aging.
I look at my paternal grandmother's wedding picture taken in 1929, she was a beautiful young woman. Another portrait taken in 1931, she already looks like my Nanny.
We are also fortunate enough to have health care, if we're middle-class. Poverty is very stressful which is why it ages people particularly women.
Also, if qf'ing women look older two causes come to mind; stress (again) and the extra weight that accumulates when a woman isn't giving her body time to recover between pregnancies.
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Post by madame on Jul 30, 2010 7:31:44 GMT -5
Interesting topic that of women aging.
Both my mom and my MIL are similar ages. They had 10 and 9 children respectively. Both had to deal with a lot of financial hardship and stress because their husbands would do things like bring beggars in from the streets, were very involved in evangelism (leaving them home alone with all the kids), and both lived in cramped conditions for many years, and pretty much in permanent building sites for some reason or another. Both have cared for ageing mothers-in-law, and both lost their parents and couldn't be there to say goodbye.
But my MIL endured extra stresses and you can see them in her eyes and on her face. She lost a baby days after giving birth. She moved her family of 5, while heavily pregnant with the 6th (who died). She has been homeless with 5 children. She has born all the responsibility with no authority. Her husband is like an irresponsible, childish, spoiled teen who thinks everyone is out to get him. He smoked away their money, drank it away, lost his driving license and made her drive him all over the place. Forced her to lie, cheat on tax returns....
I think emotional stress and instability make people age a lot faster.
My mom is 60 and she doesn't look it. If she would die her hair and use makeup, she'd look a lot younger! My MIL looks every day of her 58 years, even when she died her hair.
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Post by madame on Jul 30, 2010 7:42:13 GMT -5
About building houses or undertaking other "greatness" feats, I agree!
But just because a family is living in a permanent building site doesn't mean there's a despotic patriarch behind the plan. Some families build their houses over long periods of time. What tells me the project is lead by a proud, childish man trying to prove something is how the whole thing is done.
While both jobs may take over a decade to complete, the "happy builder" just plods along, completing jobs as he can, taking as much help as is offered, trying to make things as comfortable as possible for his family. He takes into account what his wife says. The project may even be theirs, as a couple! If things go wrong, he will apologize to his family and accept help from others to fix it. He listens to his family's concerns if they doubt he knows what he is doing.
The despotic overgrown kid does things like Cherylannhannah's husband did, sending her off with all the kids, including a newborn, so he can get the house done. Very often he doesn't really plan. He thinks he knows it all. He dismisses any advice and uses anyone who will let him do so (different from accepting help). If things don't work out, he will blame everyone else, and any offers to help that may still come will be either turned down ungraciously, or abused. He demands that they all "trust him".
The despotic overgrown kid should have stuck to building with lego.
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Post by arietty on Jul 30, 2010 21:52:06 GMT -5
OH Cheryl.. been there, done that, lived in a shack for many years and babies. A terrible, tiny shack. The ex SO enjoyed talking about everything he was going to do with it, his extension plans.. why he was going to build a house out of mudbricks and he would make the bricks HIMSELF by hand, one by one because he really valued the joy of building with your own hands, it's a lost art you know... all utter and total crap. Never did anything. We had almost no hot water for years because the water heater was nearly dead but he refused to fix it, became enraged at any offers of help. I was boiling water on the stove to give the kids baths.
Anyway.. one of my trigger points is the whole Ponderosa syndrome as someone called it here. I knew so many christians that went off into rural areas to build their ark/ranch/homestead.. many are divorced now. You take some guy who has never built anything more than a bookcase and suddenly God has called him to build the family home out in the pure countryside.. the stories I could tell you, the years, sometimes decades people spent living in tin sheds while they husband built a house on Saturday (Sunday being taken up with church activities, or for some a strict day of rest). Incredible. One family of many I knew had all their children grow up in a temporary tin shed and move out of home before the house was finished enough to live in.
This was REALLY popular in the 70's to 80's, Jesus people era.. whenever I run into people talking like this they get an earful from me, LOL.
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Post by lg61820 on Jul 31, 2010 0:07:44 GMT -5
Cheryl, Your post made me think of the kitchens of my adulthood! I never had more than a 30" length of countertop in any home until we built our own. Lovely expanses of countertop filled with junk. . . I still used about 30" to get everything done.
Later moved to an older home that had lots of counterspace - all filled with junk while I used the approx 30" between sink and stove to get everything done.
Moved out on my own after many years of marriage. Went shopping for my own home, bought a house with virtually no handy counterspace. I do most of my prep work on top of my range which is about 9" of space between the burners. I do have a counterspace across the way which is full of, you guessed it, JUNK! Isn't life funny? LG
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Post by grandmalou on Jul 31, 2010 7:13:14 GMT -5
Oh, Cheryl, and others who had to raise their babies in this kind of chaos! I feel for you! (((HUGS))) YIKES! Tin shacks, mud bricks...reminds me of my old hippie days! Mother Earth News magazines...houses dug out of the side of a south facing hill, houses made of hay bales! I actually worked for a cleaning company several years ago, and cleaned an earth home. You would not believe the SPIDERS that lived there also! Made me quickly give up my "dream" of wanting to "get back to the land"... This was not just a "Jesus freak" movement. I think it was a quest for a more simple way of life, finding out in life what really matters...materialism or family and friends connections. But it still is a pretty miserable way to have to live, crammed together in squalid conditions...this sounds like "togetherness" on steroids!
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Post by cherylannhannah on Jul 31, 2010 10:12:37 GMT -5
You know, I feel somewhat nostaligic about Mother Earth News and all the back to the land stuff I read. One of my favorite books was "Five Acres and Independence." The thing is, I could probably have lived that lifestyle IF I wasn't homeschooling AND raising a plethora of babies at the same time. I think it was the homeschooling that really did me in.
I remember one day realizing that we don't expect every male in our churches to teach by virtue of their gender because we don't think they are all called or qualified. What made us think that all women are called by virtue of being mothers? I would rather stick pins in my eyes than teach another child to read!
Home schooling works for some families. But in families where you have no involvement by the "patriarch" who thinks his job is done when he brings home the pay cheque, combined with ongoing pregnancies, birthing, etc., the logistics are such that it is very difficult to get an adequate education or anything to be done well. You know, I think maybe one of the reasons that some patriarch types think that girls don't need college, etc., is because it lessens the burden of education on THEM. You can call it godly living instead of educational neglect.
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Post by lg61820 on Jul 31, 2010 10:56:10 GMT -5
OK, now you've done with the Mother Earth News references. I am cruising down memory lane remembering the time we actually visited their "headquarters" and experimental farm.
We were deeply into it, designed & built our earth-sheltered home (quietest place I ever lived, no spiders to speak of), raised cow & calf, hogs & chickens. Three kids loving the run of the 10 acres. It was idyllic, really. He said he wanted me to stay at home with them, he didn't want them to go to a babysitter.
One day I said, "I need a couple of throw rugs" and HE said, "How do you plan to pay for them?" Well, I went out the next day, got a job and never enjoyed country life as much again. LG
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Post by arietty on Jul 31, 2010 19:11:34 GMT -5
You know, I feel somewhat nostaligic about Mother Earth News and all the back to the land stuff I read. One of my favorite books was "Five Acres and Independence." The thing is, I could probably have lived that lifestyle IF I wasn't homeschooling AND raising a plethora of babies at the same time. I think it was the homeschooling that really did me in. I remember one day realizing that we don't expect every male in our churches to teach by virtue of their gender because we don't think they are all called or qualified. What made us think that all women are called by virtue of being mothers? I would rather stick pins in my eyes than teach another child to read! Home schooling works for some families. But in families where you have no involvement by the "patriarch" who thinks his job is done when he brings home the pay cheque, combined with ongoing pregnancies, birthing, etc., the logistics are such that it is very difficult to get an adequate education or anything to be done well. You know, I think maybe one of the reasons that some patriarch types think that girls don't need college, etc., is because it lessens the burden of education on THEM. You can call it godly living instead of educational neglect. I get nostalgic about some things but when I try and take them up again they are just like dry chaff to me. It's odd.. my focus has really moved on. And yes the pattern I've seen is that when the mom reaches burnout and the older childrens educational needs are way past her abilities to teach the family has a revelation that the reason they are burned out is that they have neglected the most important calling of homeschooling.. CHARACTER. This becomes a get out of jail free card for high school. As long as you are pumping character into those kids (via chores or endless scripture memorization) you are raising godly offspring. Forget about algebra. I toyed with homeschooling my pre-schoolers.. I wanted to be one of the alternative groovy homeschoolers this time rather than a Rod and Staff homeschooler.. but I concluded that even with a many year break I am still utterly burned out on the idea.
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Post by whatkindofwoman on Jul 31, 2010 22:51:12 GMT -5
And yes the pattern I've seen is that when the mom reaches burnout and the older childrens educational needs are way past her abilities to teach the family has a revelation that the reason they are burned out is that they have neglected the most important calling of homeschooling.. CHARACTER. This becomes a get out of jail free card for high school. As long as you are pumping character into those kids (via chores or endless scripture memorization) you are raising godly offspring. Forget about algebra. THANK YOU. You've just helped chip away at one of my buried guilt-trips.
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Post by grandmalou on Aug 1, 2010 6:17:40 GMT -5
OK, now you've done with the Mother Earth News references. I am cruising down memory lane remembering the time we actually visited their "headquarters" and experimental farm. We were deeply into it, designed & built our earth-sheltered home (quietest place I ever lived, no spiders to speak of), raised cow & calf, hogs & chickens. Three kids loving the run of the 10 acres. It was idyllic, really. He said he wanted me to stay at home with them, he didn't want them to go to a babysitter. One day I said, "I need a couple of throw rugs" and HE said, "How do you plan to pay for them?" Well, I went out the next day, got a job and never enjoyed country life as much again. LG Ack! LG, welcome to NLQ! Really, I would have loved the "back to the land" lifestyle, if I'd had someone to share it with who wasn't afraid of a lot of hard work...I still peruse a few old Mother Earth News magazines, just in case we ever have to go into 'survival mode'. KWYM about never enjoying country life as much again. When you are trying to hold it all together AND work outside the home, it sucks, doesn't it? About the throw rugs...see, there is always the notion of bartering for them. How about one husband for two of them? I actually learned how to make a bunch of them (rugs, that is) ...but your husband sounds like a piece of work, and God knows most women have about as much work as they can stand! ;D ;D ;D
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Post by jillrhudybarrett on Aug 4, 2010 13:36:49 GMT -5
Boy oh boy, Cheryl, thank you so much! I had forgotten all about the Great Katastole Controversy of the Biblewives. Then there were the Heavy Hair Covering Debates. And the hand-wringing (but secretly thrilling) Cheryl Lindsey: Our Guru Run Amok Conference. Anything, as Cheryl says, to keep the ol' grey matter perking. After a while in this lifestyle you start feeling like nothing but a womb and leaking breasts in sensible shoes with bread dough under your fingernails, drilling the multiplication tables over and over.
I have some really bad memories of standing in Home Depot with tiny children and a baby during a royal renovation muck-up. Lowe's, anyone?
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Post by arietty on Aug 11, 2010 0:42:23 GMT -5
Boy oh boy, Cheryl, thank you so much! I had forgotten all about the Great Katastole Controversy of the Biblewives. Then there were the Heavy Hair Covering Debates. And the hand-wringing (but secretly thrilling) Cheryl Lindsey: Our Guru Run Amok Conference. Anything, as Cheryl says, to keep the ol' grey matter perking. After a while in this lifestyle you start feeling like nothing but a womb and leaking breasts in sensible shoes with bread dough under your fingernails, drilling the multiplication tables over and over. "secretly thrilling", OMG you nailed it there... You know I have friends now who are into the whole breadmaking, homebirthing kind of lifestyle but there's this huge difference I see between them and me at the end of my QF days. They only have 2-4 children. Their children go to school. They throw themselves into this phase of life and then they gradually move out of it as the last baby weans. They don't spend 25+ years doing the same thing day after day after day after day..
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Post by rosa on Aug 11, 2010 14:31:06 GMT -5
I have a lot of friends like that, Arietty. Only with 1-2 kids, which makes it a 5-8 year phase (or shorter, if they go back to work sooner.)
I kind of wonder if the doing it all more more more has to do with the assertion that motherhood *is* important - if people don't quite believe it, so they have to make it a ton of work out of/around it, to justify not having a paid job. I have a friend whose (only) daughter just started preschool this year, and my friensometimes talks about having another baby or doing childcare for another child, because "it won't be worth staying home when she starts school." But if she really wants to stay home, or if she thinks its best for her daughter, she shouldn't have to justify it.
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Post by arietty on Aug 11, 2010 18:59:39 GMT -5
I have a lot of friends like that, Arietty. Only with 1-2 kids, which makes it a 5-8 year phase (or shorter, if they go back to work sooner.) I kind of wonder if the doing it all more more more has to do with the assertion that motherhood *is* important - if people don't quite believe it, so they have to make it a ton of work out of/around it, to justify not having a paid job. I have a friend whose (only) daughter just started preschool this year, and my friensometimes talks about having another baby or doing childcare for another child, because "it won't be worth staying home when she starts school." But if she really wants to stay home, or if she thinks its best for her daughter, she shouldn't have to justify it. Yes I agree, she shouldn't have to justify it. I know that when I had teenagers going through chaos I used to think it would be absolutely detrimental to my family if I was working full time.. the amount of hours the teenagers took up to do even halfway decent parenting was FAR more than taking care of little children. No one should feel they are somehow being lazy by staying home with kids. As to the more more more.. the thing is when you have a baby every other year for 20 years you never move out of the new mommy phase. You change of course.. you can no longer indulge your new mommy impulses financially and time wise when you have 8 other kids, but you never actually get to that point where they are all at school and you could do something *not intimately connected with parenting* for a few hours. Of course with homeschooling this is always the case, that phase of life never comes. I know I have preschoolers now but also have friends my age whose youngest kids are married! We live totally different lives. I do have the occasional regret about not living an adult separate out of the house life at my age but I have found ways around this. Those outlets would not have been available to me if I was still QF, in a bad marriage, and homeschooling. All those things compounded the natural limitations of having young children.
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Post by nikita on Aug 11, 2010 19:16:37 GMT -5
In one of Agatha Christie's five gazillion books she has a character comment about the need for mothering older kids. It's set during WWII and someone's teenage daughter is hanging out too closely to where the soldiers are based. This woman remarks that it's because the mothers of older children are pulled into the war effort while the mothers of babies are excused. She is disdainful. Anyone can watch a baby, she explains, but it takes a mother to watch a teenage girl. LOL
Yeah, I think everybody should leave everybody else's choices alone. If a particular family wants to have a SAHM (or even not a mom, just a wife who chooses not to work if she doesn't need to) why is it any one else's business? Other than some jealousy over the situation from those who don't have the same choice available to them I don't know why it would upset any one if someone else makes a different decision on how to live their lives. It's a large universe and life is hard enough as it is without creating all these busybody controversies over other people's chosen life plans. IMO.
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Post by rosa on Aug 11, 2010 21:54:38 GMT -5
I think I didn't say what I meant very clearly.
The thing is, I know a lot of women who had another baby (usually just one more than they originally planned) because they weren't ready to go back to work and there was a lot of pressure not to stay home once they "didn't have to"...but of course the 3rd or 4th or even 2nd child just increases the financial pressure.
It sort of seems, from the excerpts that have been posted here and some of the other sites I read, like the QF moms think it's not "real" mothering until you're up over 5, like the "worldly" moms are all TV and takeout pizza and that doesn't count, the way *their* mothering does. Which seems like it comes from a place of deep insecurity with the basic idea (they claim to believe) that kids do best with Mom at home. And that insecurity in the claim that mothering is useful work is something they share with the rest of the culture.
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